Torque 3D Sidebar - Pricing and Licensing
by Brett Seyler · 01/09/2009 (6:57 am) · 369 comments

This is probably the most candid blog post I'll write all year. It's also likely to be quite long. I'm aiming here to communicate a lot of things and I'm hoping they come out in nice fluid arc, but we'll see. It's supposed to be about GG and you, but we might take some twists and turns getting there. I should also warn anyone who's willing to read through this that there are no clear answers in this blog, just thoughts and questions. While I'm sitting here starting to write this, I'm thinking about how much I like reading Warren Buffett's shareholder letters. I'm certainly not alone in admiring his frank, honest, pull-no-punches style. Buffett's customers are his shareholders, but I notice that very few companies write to their customers this way. What would it be like if they did?
I'm certainly not arrogant enough to draw any kind of comparison between me and the Sage of Omaha, but I really going to try to follow his example in candor and clear communication about business goals.
Most of you probably don't know that I did finance and investment work before joining GG. Though I've always been into games and technology my whole life, it's still a a very weird kind of transition to make from that button up world to the laid back, but hyper-competitve world of a startup software company. Obviously, GG is much more fun, but it's almost demanding in a lot of the same ways finance was for me. You might be surprised how much business is just business, and finding ways to succeed and get more done is universal across those kind of boundaries.
There are a bunch of subjects I'll likely wander around in this post, but the one that bears this post's title is the focus...
RUH-ROH! I can hear the alarm bells going off..."GG is raising prices! I knew it!!!!!!!!!!"
I'll just tear the Band-aid away quickly then. Torque 3D will have a higher price tag than GG'ers are used to from Torque. How much higher? I'm not sure yet to be honest...I've given it a lot of thought, but in the past few months, when I've looked to you guys for feedback, it's always been helpful and understanding, so I figured I'd push my luck and do it again =)
Here are the core principles for GG and Torque that I'm trying to stay true to in working this out:
(1) Make sure that Torque licensing is a sustainable business that allows for signicant reinvestment in the technology--enough to keep Torque at the forefront of modern game engines.
(2) Eat our own dog food. This means we use what we sell, reinforcing the need to reinvest in the technology.
(3) Leverage modern distribution options. This means web publishing, downloadable channels, and any other efforts that upset that status quo in publishing and put more money and control in the developer's hands.
(4) Remain an affordable option for the little guy.
Obviously there's a balance to be struck attempting to serve both (1) and (4). However, there may be less conflict than you'd think. For example, let me talk about (1) a little bit.
Why I'm not worried about Epic or AAA
We made a decision with Torque a long time ago not to compete head to head the top competition in the AAA space. That competitions has emerged in the past decade to be Epic's Unreal engine, first and foremost. While Torque can do a LOT of what Unreal can do, we're executing on a much different business model and strategy...part of it is idealistic, part's pragmatic.
The Unreal engine is driven by the needs of Epic's studio to deliver every year, without fail, on a game with the highest visual impact possible. They succeed, more or less, in doing this with Unreal Tournament and Gears of War. These huge budget AAA games subsidize the enormous cost of developing technology that keeps the games looking better than anything else. By extension, the Unreal engine is percieved as being the best technology at any given time. (Seem like circular logic? Keep reading.)Sure...there are disturbances in the force. Upstarts like Crytek or Gamebryo steal the limelight now and then, but let's be realistic, Unreal dominates AAA engine licensing. When I say AAA, I mean licensing for use in big budget AAA titles. If you're building a $10-$30M game, you're looking at Unreal first. It inspires confidence in your publisher (guaranteeing more money) and it says to the media and press that "this game is going to achieve a certain visual quality bar that you expect from games made with Unreal." This last part in particular is crucial to the hype-train that gets gamers to pay $60 for a game on release day.
Sound like any other industry you can think of? Come...let's all share in the let down and pretend we didn't just get screwed.
I'd be lying if I said I didn't admire Epic's success in both engine licensing and game development. They've figured out how the game is played and beat everyone under the current ruleset. My hat's off to them. But a lot of this blockbuster-game-driven perception about engines is crap IMO. The dirty little secret in AAA games is that great art, far more than tech, creates visual quality. Even so, "UE = visual superiority => best engine" is the common thinking in the games industry and no one--NO ONE--has been able to break Epic's stranglehold on this section of the middleware market for the better part of decade.
How would you change things if it were your desire to do so?
There are two paths that I see...
You can try to beat Epic at their own game. To do this you'd need a premiere game studio with huge budgets to consistently impress on developers and the press that Unreal is no longer the best performing engine tech around. This means truly high end tech and *really* high end artists that can push the technology's boundaries.
Crytek appears to be trying to execute on this strategy, and they've had some success. id, while a major innovator in game dev technology, appears only casually interested in upsetting the state of Epic's AAA middleware domination. Gamebryo has some good tech and a good marketing / sales team, but no dedicated studio to consistently test the tech and then demonstrate where they stack up next to Unreal or other AAA competitors, so I think they're doomed to fail in AAA. Valve plays a role similar to id. They appear to only casually pursuing licensing of their Source engine.
So that's it... Crytek is the only reasonable candidate to unseat Epic as the AAA engine licensing champion. Why don't I think that will happen? In order to do it, Crytek needs to do it year after year for a sustained period of time, and that demands a lot of money. Epic's makes financially successful games that subsidize the costs of developing their tech. Crytek, to date, has not.
Even for hardcore gamers and the press, it's not just about the good looks, it's also about being on the right platforms, being able to tell a good story in-game. Developers have to find the right gameplay hooks to make a game rewarding. As visually impressive as Crysis is (far more than any UE3 game IMO), the game lacked what was needed to achieve maintream (and financial) success. Minimum hardware requirements that were totally off the charts on the game's release didn't help much either.

Does it make sense for GarageGames to try to go to head-to-head with Epic in the same fashion? Well, maybe we'd consider it if the AAA engine licensing space were a growth market or currently underserved, but it's neither. AAA engine licensing has been a fairly stagnant market for years now and Epic'c never conceded more than about 50% of the available revenue, so I don't know about you, but doing bloody battle for a slice of a pie that isn't growing seems kind silly to me.
So, if not head-to-head with Epic, where does Torque fit? What's the angle? Well, our goal is not really to "beat" Epic, it's to change the game (in the "meta" sense of the word). We think it's dumb that games cost $60 and that the best selling games published by the biggest publishers all essentially answer to Walmart.
Games should be cheaper.
Gamers should have more variety.
Developers should feel comfortable taking more risks.
None of these are possible without upsetting the status quo. This is why we created Torque and put a $100 no royalties price tag on it in 2001. This is why we created InstantAction.com so that we could build our own audience and connect gamers to developers with no interference from publishers or retailers. Both efforts serve the same goal of making it easier (and more affordable) for developers to take risks.
Torque exists to provide developers (starting with our own game studio) with the means to take these kinds of risks, to create games that can achieve AAA-level visual quality, but with a focus on what makes games fun. We want our studio and you to innovate in ways that matter most to gamers. Portal didn't need next-gen visuals or a multi-million dollare engine to win over gamers. It could have easily been built with Torque. Just the same, Marble Blast Ultra didn't need super-high end rendering. To make the point even clearer, look at Phil Hassey's Galcon. Phil built this game in Python all by himself and it's currently one of the most played games on InstantAction.

We think this evolution, bridging the divide between developers and gamers, enabling greater risk taking at lower cost, is where the industry must go. The faster it gets there, the more Torque makes sense to a wider audience of game developers. As a company, we've always aimed to support platforms and technologies that make this happen faster. I put Steam, WiiWare, XBLA, PSN, id's Quakelive and InstantAction.com all on that list. In fact, without Steam, I doubt Valve could comfortably afford to take the kind or risks they do. We'd all, as gamers and game developers, be much worse off without if they hadn't bucked the system and created the most effective digital distribution platform on the planet. (Go Valve!)
Let's think again about the balance between enabling the little guy, and being in a position to reinvest in Torque and sustain this effort to encourage risk taking in games. Who do we mean by the little guy? Does a hobbyist who never publishes anything serve these goals? Probably not...let's talk about that...
We're building Torque to enable a particular set of developers: those who can persevere though the challenge of game development. This means outfits like Fro Games, Stickman Studios, Sickhead Games, and Tilted Mill to cite some recent examples. In the recent Game Developer profile on TGEA for the Front Line awards, I think they hit the nail on the head.


Are you one of these developers? A lot of you might not know yet. Some of you may not know whether you even want to push that hard or take that much time. You might be happy with game development as a curiousity and have no interest in ever publishing your work. This does not mean Torque is not for you.
Just as Photoshop, Flash, Max and Maya are built for professional use with professional licensees in mind, so is Torque. And just as plenty of amateurs and hobbyists use Adobe and Autodesk tools with no intention of making their work public, so will amateur and hobbyist Torque users. Still, often times, these tools make professionals of people who didn't know if they had what it in them, and we hope Torque does the same.
If we want Torque to effectively serve professionals and that set of developers who have the fortitude and talent to give it a real shot, we need to re-evaluate Torque's license fee. We can't do this effectively for $150 / seat, at least not with Torque 3D. Torque has thousands and thousands of licensees, but developing engine technology is very complicated and very expensive--certainly more complicated and expensive than developing games.
Attaching a $150 / seat price Torque has created a quality perception that does not do justice to Torque's capabilities. GarageGames could *easily* spin out a new business under a different banner and sell TGEA / Torque 3D right next to all the other major AAA engines for hundreds of thousands of dollars per title. Why don't we? Because it doesn't help us with (3) or (4). We'd be quickly assimilated into the tiny space left over by Epic and fighting tooth and nail with everyone else for 3-4 licensing tile deals per year. It wouldn't help us with games. It would disrupt the broken industry model. It wouldn't do much of anything good for games or gamers.
So what price makes sense? What's commensurate with the value Torque provides? Again, I don't know the answer to this yet. It's not $150 / seat and it's not $295 / seat. Perhaps it's $1000. Perhaps it's more. I look at products like Flash ($699) or 3ds Max ($3495) / Maya ($4995) and compare them with Torque. Torque is more complex from an engineering perspective and Torque is in a smaller, more niche market. Both of these factors would argue for a higher price. What about (4)? What's affordable for the little guy? What's going to be the right price that makes it acceptable for developers who ship product to feel comfortable taking risks with a good chance of success? Hard questions to answer.

I've also noticed that Unity, which appears to be competing more with Flash than game engines, is priced many multiples higher than Torque and yet, it's attracted a license base of primarily hobbyists and amateur developers. Even though Unity now offers a lower priced "Indie" version of its tool that deprecates major features and significant license freedom, for a long time you couldn't buy Unity for less than $1000 / seat. How does that compare with Torque (a much more capable and mature engine technology that actually provides source code)?
There's another consideration that's really important to me, and that's all you reading this. Many of you have been loyal GG customers and Torque users for a long time...in some cases much longer than I've been here myself. You've become accustomed to Torque's low price. Even if it costs GG money in the short term, I don't want to see this community lose is vibrance or engagement because Torque's no longer an affordable technology to stay current with.
While I haven't figured out how it will work yet, I have decided that when Torque 3D is ready for relase, we'll offer it with an option that makes it much more affordable for TGEA owners to make the move. New licensees who don't already own TGEA at that point will pay full price, whatever that ends up being. I should also note that TGEA 1.8 will probably remain an affordable option at the low end throughout 2009, but if we can, we'll provide a better, affordable substitute with Torque 3D...perhaps with some sort of meaningful feature or license delta. This might mean that Indie vs. Commercial changes, or goes away as well.
My ideal outcome is that in mid-2009, everyone who wants to continue working with Torque in the future will be using Torque 3D and sharing resources and knowledge with the rest of the community. This product is the largest investment we've ever made in engine tech and our expectations are high, but better I think to disclose our thoughts and intentions on things like this sooner rather than later. I'm very confident that for those of you who are really engaged in making games, upgrading to Torque 3D will be an easy choice well justified by the value it adds to your talent and dedication.
More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #5.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#122
T3D
Indies-
- $350.00 up front. Once/if the game is set to be shipped, a second payment of $850.00 must be paid = $1200.00 total.
- Earn less than 100,000 a year
- 4 second Engine logo upon startup
- May publish game anywhere
-no royalties
Commercial-
-$3500.00
- No engine logo = 500.00 more
-no royalties
- May publish game anywhere
- May trsnfer license ownership
- May purchase company licenses
- access to Matt Fairfax's home Phone number for support ;)
Educational - no idea's here.
TGEA 1.8
- $250.00 up front. Once/if the game is set to be shipped: another $250.00 totalling $500.00
- Earn less than 100,000 a year
- 4 second Engine logo upon startup
- May publish game anywhere
-no royalties
TGE
- $100.00 up front. Once/if the game is set to be shipped: another $100.00 totalling $200.00
- Earn less than 100,000 a year
- 4 second Engine logo upon startup
- May publish game anywhere
-no royalties
01/09/2009 (9:46 pm)
I've had some time to think about it, and if I had to give a suggestion as to what "I" think is fair... I would break it down like this:T3D
Indies-
- $350.00 up front. Once/if the game is set to be shipped, a second payment of $850.00 must be paid = $1200.00 total.
- Earn less than 100,000 a year
- 4 second Engine logo upon startup
- May publish game anywhere
-no royalties
Commercial-
-$3500.00
- No engine logo = 500.00 more
-no royalties
- May publish game anywhere
- May trsnfer license ownership
- May purchase company licenses
- access to Matt Fairfax's home Phone number for support ;)
Educational - no idea's here.
TGEA 1.8
- $250.00 up front. Once/if the game is set to be shipped: another $250.00 totalling $500.00
- Earn less than 100,000 a year
- 4 second Engine logo upon startup
- May publish game anywhere
-no royalties
TGE
- $100.00 up front. Once/if the game is set to be shipped: another $100.00 totalling $200.00
- Earn less than 100,000 a year
- 4 second Engine logo upon startup
- May publish game anywhere
-no royalties
#123
The IRC channel never went away. It's on the community "what's new" page and access just under the new/unanswered posts. Here is a link.
@Ross
Davey is one hell of a CS rep. He's amazing at conferences and one hell of a go-getter who is not afraid to tell it like he sees it. And he knows what goes on everyday in the trenches on the engine team. It may seem a bit heated here because he sees what the people do day in and day out that the vast majority of the rest of us in this topic couldn't do on our best day with a team behind us. So seeing someone come in and call Matt or Mich's hard work crap can get under the skin. I know a lot of people who take their work very seriously, and we definitely do here.
@Andrew
I would raise the price significantly to remove branding from the engine. I would say into the $2000-$15,000 range depending on what they want to remove. I think branding is extremely important as a strategy in the engine market. I know it will burn some people and they will use another engine, but that's okay. I'd rather have them use an engine that fits the goals of their project and artistic guidelines than I would throwing away our branding. In fact, I feel that way about most engine features in general. People should choose the right engine for them, and it just might not be Torque. Or Unity. Or Irrlicht. Or Sauerbraten...etc.
Maybe I would also add in TGE as an open-sourced engine as others have noted above. Something similar to the id tech releases into the GPL. It's already cleaned up for release--though most engines could definitely benefit from having a group like the ioQuake3 devs cleaning up and refactoring the codebase; and TGE is no exception in the cleanup dept. That way there is no burden of support for the technology unless people wish to pay for it. Otherwise, people can run free and prosper...or not.
@All
While I definitely disagree with the "bug riddled" comments and notions of promises during anything called "early adopter" or "beta" software, especially if it needed to be triaged to get other issues worked on, I've really enjoyed the flow of conversation so far. It's hard conversations like this that I enjoy in the communities I frequent. They may get heated as people get passionate, but they're conversations that are important to the community.
01/09/2009 (10:33 pm)
@BlakeThe IRC channel never went away. It's on the community "what's new" page and access just under the new/unanswered posts. Here is a link.
@Ross
Davey is one hell of a CS rep. He's amazing at conferences and one hell of a go-getter who is not afraid to tell it like he sees it. And he knows what goes on everyday in the trenches on the engine team. It may seem a bit heated here because he sees what the people do day in and day out that the vast majority of the rest of us in this topic couldn't do on our best day with a team behind us. So seeing someone come in and call Matt or Mich's hard work crap can get under the skin. I know a lot of people who take their work very seriously, and we definitely do here.
@Andrew
I would raise the price significantly to remove branding from the engine. I would say into the $2000-$15,000 range depending on what they want to remove. I think branding is extremely important as a strategy in the engine market. I know it will burn some people and they will use another engine, but that's okay. I'd rather have them use an engine that fits the goals of their project and artistic guidelines than I would throwing away our branding. In fact, I feel that way about most engine features in general. People should choose the right engine for them, and it just might not be Torque. Or Unity. Or Irrlicht. Or Sauerbraten...etc.
Maybe I would also add in TGE as an open-sourced engine as others have noted above. Something similar to the id tech releases into the GPL. It's already cleaned up for release--though most engines could definitely benefit from having a group like the ioQuake3 devs cleaning up and refactoring the codebase; and TGE is no exception in the cleanup dept. That way there is no burden of support for the technology unless people wish to pay for it. Otherwise, people can run free and prosper...or not.
@All
While I definitely disagree with the "bug riddled" comments and notions of promises during anything called "early adopter" or "beta" software, especially if it needed to be triaged to get other issues worked on, I've really enjoyed the flow of conversation so far. It's hard conversations like this that I enjoy in the communities I frequent. They may get heated as people get passionate, but they're conversations that are important to the community.
#124
It makes way more sense to say once you ship your game and it makes X amount of dollars you have to pay us X amount to upgrade to the commercial license. Get what I'm saying? That way you have a chance to make the money you'll need to upgrade to the commercial license and still get your game out there instead of not being able to afford putting all your hard work into a game release.
Edited: b/c of David's comment posted while I was writing mine.
"I would raise the price significantly to remove branding from the engine." <---That is gonna set alot of people off as it has already and personally I feel like your comments in that paragraph are one big crap on the community that has helped you build Torque into what it is today.
01/09/2009 (10:34 pm)
@Andrew and the others saying similar things I don't agree at all with the once I go to ship the game pay more money concept. So I spend countless hours learning how to make my game. Carefully crafting every aspect of it because it's my own personal dream that I want everyone to experience, but then because I can't afford to shell out another $850.00 I'm dead ended? What a crap idea.It makes way more sense to say once you ship your game and it makes X amount of dollars you have to pay us X amount to upgrade to the commercial license. Get what I'm saying? That way you have a chance to make the money you'll need to upgrade to the commercial license and still get your game out there instead of not being able to afford putting all your hard work into a game release.
Edited: b/c of David's comment posted while I was writing mine.
"I would raise the price significantly to remove branding from the engine." <---That is gonna set alot of people off as it has already and personally I feel like your comments in that paragraph are one big crap on the community that has helped you build Torque into what it is today.
#125
The only issue would be that you'd have to provide some support to all 3 engines (mostly to T3D, but still people might have issues with content packs or something...)
But I could probably swing $350 per seat, with $850 per game on top of that. That way if I just want to tinker, then it's affordable, but if I get a great idea, then I can cross that bridge when I get there.
Quick edit: One more issue... I don't like the idea of completely removing the T3D logo. Maybe pay $5,000-$10,000+ to use a smaller logo that can be placed anywhere (as long as it's visible at some obvious point)
01/09/2009 (10:40 pm)
I like Andrew's price structure a lot! Sounds pretty good.The only issue would be that you'd have to provide some support to all 3 engines (mostly to T3D, but still people might have issues with content packs or something...)
But I could probably swing $350 per seat, with $850 per game on top of that. That way if I just want to tinker, then it's affordable, but if I get a great idea, then I can cross that bridge when I get there.
Quick edit: One more issue... I don't like the idea of completely removing the T3D logo. Maybe pay $5,000-$10,000+ to use a smaller logo that can be placed anywhere (as long as it's visible at some obvious point)
#126
It's a system to allow those who may not be able to purchase the engine a way in. It is also used by other game engines so it's not unheard of. In anycase, you would know what the expectations would be going into the deal so there would be no surprise. I do not see how coming up with 850 dollars over the course of 6months.. a year.. etc is all that unreasonable.. but like I said.. its just my opinion.
@ David Blake
Raising the price for the brand would be at the descresion of GG.. the figure I pulled out was arbitrary. Also, I should have stated that there would be no official support for TGE or maybe even TGEA at teh point GG felt they were complete.
01/09/2009 (10:49 pm)
@ Scott It's a system to allow those who may not be able to purchase the engine a way in. It is also used by other game engines so it's not unheard of. In anycase, you would know what the expectations would be going into the deal so there would be no surprise. I do not see how coming up with 850 dollars over the course of 6months.. a year.. etc is all that unreasonable.. but like I said.. its just my opinion.
@ David Blake
Raising the price for the brand would be at the descresion of GG.. the figure I pulled out was arbitrary. Also, I should have stated that there would be no official support for TGE or maybe even TGEA at teh point GG felt they were complete.
#127
Back on track. This blog isn't about calling people out on CS skills or whether 1 person can handle documentation. This particular blog is about the future pricing of Torque3D.
I keep reading: "Better documentation." I hope when I post my next blog and a Torque3D Documentation thread, you are all there to fill in the details.
01/09/2009 (10:59 pm)
I'm going to ride on the same note David just made. Davey's CS skills are awesome. It goes without saying that our passion is just as strong as the community's. He didn't like people ignoring (and downing) 6 straight months of documentation effort. Back on track. This blog isn't about calling people out on CS skills or whether 1 person can handle documentation. This particular blog is about the future pricing of Torque3D.
I keep reading: "Better documentation." I hope when I post my next blog and a Torque3D Documentation thread, you are all there to fill in the details.
#128
Commercial - $1000 (or $500 with existing Start-Up license)
Platform licenses are only available at an additional cost to Commercial licensees.
The binary allows for prototyping with room to grow into the next license. Sure it's great to have but in my case I'd like to avoid modifying the source if at all possible.
I love the content marketplace.
Plastic Tweaker
AFXA
Green-Ear
SSAO
Content Packs
However, if the price point were to go above $1k there would need to be additional integrated items such as, AI with editor (Immersive was a great start), cut-scene editor, and physics.
This blog series, and other GGers like those from Michael Perry, is what I consider transparency. Honestly, Perry's work in documentation spoke louder to me than that of TGEA 1.7.1 or 1.8 as products themselves.
01/09/2009 (11:07 pm)
Start-Up - $ 500 (binary only; no source; plus it is more professional naming)Commercial - $1000 (or $500 with existing Start-Up license)
Platform licenses are only available at an additional cost to Commercial licensees.
The binary allows for prototyping with room to grow into the next license. Sure it's great to have but in my case I'd like to avoid modifying the source if at all possible.
I love the content marketplace.
Plastic Tweaker
AFXA
Green-Ear
SSAO
Content Packs
However, if the price point were to go above $1k there would need to be additional integrated items such as, AI with editor (Immersive was a great start), cut-scene editor, and physics.
This blog series, and other GGers like those from Michael Perry, is what I consider transparency. Honestly, Perry's work in documentation spoke louder to me than that of TGEA 1.7.1 or 1.8 as products themselves.
#129
Let me be a bit more constructive, you asked about what docs we would want. Let me relate something to you when I was looking onto the optimizing level load time for Neuromatrix. I was tracing thru the loading code and the flow of control and logic goes from the C++ engine to the script code and back again quite a few times. Where was this described in the docs? Nowhere that I could find.
I haven't picked up Maurina's second book describing engine internals, but I imagine that's the direction of docs I am looking for at release of T3D. I would like to see docs that describe the engine in detail, and first give an overview of the whole thing , how the C++ engine and script all work together. Then give details on different subsystems so that people can understand them. Loading code, sound , input, graphics, data organization, GUI, scripting, art pipeline, tools , etc etc. Make this documentation nice to read, as a book would and not a dump of code comments. Hold my hand and take me on a guided tour. Give me lots of pretty diagrams to make it easy to understand.
Then give me tutorial examples on how to make a racing game, fps shooter, sports game and 3d platformer in single and multiplayer. Have it include making new C++ objects in ways that promote good code and working with the engine, in addition to writing script code and doing it properly. I want to curl up and read your docs, then work thru the tutorials, so that when I am finished I feel like I know your engine in the general sense and also feel like I know how to make a game with it, at every possible development step. I want to feel excited and empowered, feeling I know how to use this awesome software effectively.
Make me smile inside on how easy it is to make games with T3D, and yes I will pay more. Right now, its honestly too hard.
Oh I like the idea of pay a little upfront, and on release pay a lot more. Seems like it would encourage GG to make the engine as usable as possible. Oh and how about if you release your game with GG on instantaction or whatever, you pay less than if you release your game elsewhere, as another way to build up the community.
I will close by saying again that I really really appreciate GG and the hard work you are doing to make this niche a reality, it really helps us out and I salute you.
01/09/2009 (11:11 pm)
@ Micheal Perry - hey good to hear you have hired an intern. I didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers about the joke comment regarding documentation , but I guess I touched a nerve. I do understand you guys are busting tail to make the engine the best you can, no doubt, and believe me I do appreciate the HUGE amount of work it takes to write a clean game engine, and then produce useful docs that get users up and running quickly with it. On the limited budget you had in the past as a company, that was immpossible, I din't mmean to blame anyone at GG.Let me be a bit more constructive, you asked about what docs we would want. Let me relate something to you when I was looking onto the optimizing level load time for Neuromatrix. I was tracing thru the loading code and the flow of control and logic goes from the C++ engine to the script code and back again quite a few times. Where was this described in the docs? Nowhere that I could find.
I haven't picked up Maurina's second book describing engine internals, but I imagine that's the direction of docs I am looking for at release of T3D. I would like to see docs that describe the engine in detail, and first give an overview of the whole thing , how the C++ engine and script all work together. Then give details on different subsystems so that people can understand them. Loading code, sound , input, graphics, data organization, GUI, scripting, art pipeline, tools , etc etc. Make this documentation nice to read, as a book would and not a dump of code comments. Hold my hand and take me on a guided tour. Give me lots of pretty diagrams to make it easy to understand.
Then give me tutorial examples on how to make a racing game, fps shooter, sports game and 3d platformer in single and multiplayer. Have it include making new C++ objects in ways that promote good code and working with the engine, in addition to writing script code and doing it properly. I want to curl up and read your docs, then work thru the tutorials, so that when I am finished I feel like I know your engine in the general sense and also feel like I know how to make a game with it, at every possible development step. I want to feel excited and empowered, feeling I know how to use this awesome software effectively.
Make me smile inside on how easy it is to make games with T3D, and yes I will pay more. Right now, its honestly too hard.
Oh I like the idea of pay a little upfront, and on release pay a lot more. Seems like it would encourage GG to make the engine as usable as possible. Oh and how about if you release your game with GG on instantaction or whatever, you pay less than if you release your game elsewhere, as another way to build up the community.
I will close by saying again that I really really appreciate GG and the hard work you are doing to make this niche a reality, it really helps us out and I salute you.
#130
@Blake - Awesome. That's a great start. I'll use your post as an introduction in my next blog and Torqu3D feedback thread. While I will not divulge details on new features or release date, I will start releasing information on the new docs starting next week.
You will even see docs released early.
01/09/2009 (11:17 pm)
@Ben - Much appreciated =)@Blake - Awesome. That's a great start. I'll use your post as an introduction in my next blog and Torqu3D feedback thread. While I will not divulge details on new features or release date, I will start releasing information on the new docs starting next week.
You will even see docs released early.
#131
You really shouldn't compare T3D to products like flash.
Flash runs on just about any platform with a browser and a plugin at one fixed cost. ($695)($199upgrade)
TGE - $150? - TGEA - $150 (early adoption?) - T3D ($More)
T2D($More) - Upgrade? ($More?)
iphone? cost more
wii? cost more
xbox360? cost more/different product
I really would like to see a bullet list of what is being upgraded.
Because so far I haven't really heard about anything except the graphics side of things.
TGEA 2.0 - with the same ole backend/core technologies that have been around since TGE 1.whatever
"Torque is more complex from an engineering perspective"
Not to bash you or anything, but when you make comments like the above you really are asking to get nailed. Spoken like someone from a marketing department that knows nothing about nothing. ;(
I personally like the Torque X sales model.
Free - (creators club)
Indie (with source)
Commerical (with source)
01/09/2009 (11:24 pm)
I wanted to point out one small thing.You really shouldn't compare T3D to products like flash.
Flash runs on just about any platform with a browser and a plugin at one fixed cost. ($695)($199upgrade)
TGE - $150? - TGEA - $150 (early adoption?) - T3D ($More)
T2D($More) - Upgrade? ($More?)
iphone? cost more
wii? cost more
xbox360? cost more/different product
I really would like to see a bullet list of what is being upgraded.
Because so far I haven't really heard about anything except the graphics side of things.
TGEA 2.0 - with the same ole backend/core technologies that have been around since TGE 1.whatever
"Torque is more complex from an engineering perspective"
Not to bash you or anything, but when you make comments like the above you really are asking to get nailed. Spoken like someone from a marketing department that knows nothing about nothing. ;(
I personally like the Torque X sales model.
Free - (creators club)
Indie (with source)
Commerical (with source)
#132
http://www.armchairempire.com/Interviews/jeff-tunnell-garagegames.htm
and relevant to this issue being discussed in this blog.
01/09/2009 (11:36 pm)
I found this site very interesting...http://www.armchairempire.com/Interviews/jeff-tunnell-garagegames.htm
and relevant to this issue being discussed in this blog.
#133
Here is the doc you are looking for (I got to this by going to TGE->Coders->TorqueNetworking->2.4 Connection Sequence Overview):
Torque Connection Sequence Overview
Torque Connection Sequence Diagram
01/09/2009 (11:53 pm)
Quote:
I was tracing thru the loading code and the flow of control and logic goes from the C++ engine to the script code and back again quite a few times. Where was this described in the docs? Nowhere that I could find.
Here is the doc you are looking for (I got to this by going to TGE->Coders->TorqueNetworking->2.4 Connection Sequence Overview):
Torque Connection Sequence Overview
Torque Connection Sequence Diagram
#134
I don't see $500 in value for a binary-only release. I guess if you want to make a super-basic edition, $50-$100 sounds reasonable. But I would never spend $500 on something that could never become more than a mod. Not even Torque.
But yeah, I'm liking the responses from the employees here. Passion is great, and I can tell ya'll are working very hard on T3D... so I'm looking forward to the preview of the docs, and I sure hope I don't get priced out.
01/10/2009 (12:27 am)
I don't like the idea of a binary-only release. It seems silly. Sure, the scripting system of Torque is great (probably 75% of the reason why I would prefer the Torque engine over any other alternatives that crop up) ... but if all you have is the scripting system, you're just making a glorified mod. Heck, I can spend $50 and mod Crysis, if that's what it's going to be like.I don't see $500 in value for a binary-only release. I guess if you want to make a super-basic edition, $50-$100 sounds reasonable. But I would never spend $500 on something that could never become more than a mod. Not even Torque.
But yeah, I'm liking the responses from the employees here. Passion is great, and I can tell ya'll are working very hard on T3D... so I'm looking forward to the preview of the docs, and I sure hope I don't get priced out.
#135
@ Matt - that's exactly what I wanted when I was digging thru it, damn it would have saved me a ton of time. Good to know it exists though, thanks.
01/10/2009 (12:46 am)
@Micheal - awesome back at ya :).@ Matt - that's exactly what I wanted when I was digging thru it, damn it would have saved me a ton of time. Good to know it exists though, thanks.
#136
01/10/2009 (2:18 am)
if the price morethan 600$ for indie license,i will leave torque even with extra free hooker with it...
#137
Editor; ease the time spent, and interaction with setting up levels, mobs, debris, paths, triggers, surface properties, landscape manipulation, etc...
The state of TG(x) ones is behind what other offers, -is why some folks shift...
(Ive been using Unreals in the past -wowzers)
Documentation; ease the understanding of why and how mechanics works as they do, and why its tied as is...
(The stats of (TG(x) is improving rapidly, but its been a long road which made some folks shift...
(reminds me of the old Spectrum/Commodore days, Spectrum won the 'modder' community, simply because it had up front and continued documentation / books rapidly coming out)
Code Libraries; ease the time spent in actually making business logic at any layer, gettting methods and signatures floating, etc.
(the state of (TG(x) have previously had too many missing features or broken libs/methods, and is why some folks shift...
(Spreading manpower over too many layers can thin out not only focus, but also)
ROI, we all want that! GG with its Engines, and customers with product 'coverage'. The dance is hard, but with increased costs you cut down masses, with lowered you incresase masses. And as the OP was airing 'we dont intend to fight the triple A's I do not see a justification to cut masses in a branding spree. After all, look a the grassroot movement that so quickly got 1.7.1, and 1.8 Tsunami like feedback rolling is -GG's target range == the Indie studio, the Indie guy and dre basement dreamer and his kid. Try move away from this in a increasingly tuff market, and you will se the beach swarmed with other boats.
One last thing; we do respect a god engine, hard working folks, and contributors. But respect is earned, both ways. Mostly through proper communication, which is why, I assume, that this thread was born in the first place. You guys asked for feedback, and it will come as sure as theres a day tomorrow -both good and bad, there is no reason to neglect the feelings and experience anyone had interacting with eachother, that be customers and Gg'ers alike. Doing so, will surely make said hard earned respect dissapear...
whis is why some people shift...
Btw, as been mentioned previously (yes I read every post), can we also get to discuss what will be inside T3D, before the price tag gets too hammered down?
01/10/2009 (2:31 am)
Quote:its the shortened development cycle.This hits the nail in 3 areas as I see it...
Editor; ease the time spent, and interaction with setting up levels, mobs, debris, paths, triggers, surface properties, landscape manipulation, etc...
The state of TG(x) ones is behind what other offers, -is why some folks shift...
(Ive been using Unreals in the past -wowzers)
Documentation; ease the understanding of why and how mechanics works as they do, and why its tied as is...
(The stats of (TG(x) is improving rapidly, but its been a long road which made some folks shift...
(reminds me of the old Spectrum/Commodore days, Spectrum won the 'modder' community, simply because it had up front and continued documentation / books rapidly coming out)
Code Libraries; ease the time spent in actually making business logic at any layer, gettting methods and signatures floating, etc.
(the state of (TG(x) have previously had too many missing features or broken libs/methods, and is why some folks shift...
(Spreading manpower over too many layers can thin out not only focus, but also)
ROI, we all want that! GG with its Engines, and customers with product 'coverage'. The dance is hard, but with increased costs you cut down masses, with lowered you incresase masses. And as the OP was airing 'we dont intend to fight the triple A's I do not see a justification to cut masses in a branding spree. After all, look a the grassroot movement that so quickly got 1.7.1, and 1.8 Tsunami like feedback rolling is -GG's target range == the Indie studio, the Indie guy and dre basement dreamer and his kid. Try move away from this in a increasingly tuff market, and you will se the beach swarmed with other boats.
One last thing; we do respect a god engine, hard working folks, and contributors. But respect is earned, both ways. Mostly through proper communication, which is why, I assume, that this thread was born in the first place. You guys asked for feedback, and it will come as sure as theres a day tomorrow -both good and bad, there is no reason to neglect the feelings and experience anyone had interacting with eachother, that be customers and Gg'ers alike. Doing so, will surely make said hard earned respect dissapear...
whis is why some people shift...
Btw, as been mentioned previously (yes I read every post), can we also get to discuss what will be inside T3D, before the price tag gets too hammered down?
#138
01/10/2009 (2:41 am)
Well, this post has been a real eye opener. It has confirmed my beliefs about the way the world works and answered many questions I have had about GG over the past year or so. It made me look around to see what is really going on.
#139
@Brett: I think you did right to post this blog. But your comparison of other products is incorrect. You are comparing products like 3dsMax, Maya, Flash to torque, when in reality you should be comparing C4, Unity and Lawgiver. Max, Maya and the rest are broad market commodity applications where as torque is a middleware library. The comparison with engines like Unreal are also flawed, because someone licenses unreal for the toolset, support and codebase, not just the codebase. Plus unreal is aimed at publishers, not developers.
I've been using torque for a very long time now, I've also used a ton of other engines, including a lot of open source ones recently. I'm waiting for Unity on the windows platform before evaluating that. I am trying to establish that I have no overall bias, do not consider myself a fanboy of any particular flavour of platform/engine.
The way I see it, Torque hit the nail on the head with its original price point, because it was a) cheap enough that people could try it out b) cheap enough that they were forgiving of its "issues"
Now that you are thinking of changing the price point, then lets re-evaluate the situation:
Torque's codebase although extended with features has not significantly altered in its architecture since the first release. In order to consider changing the price, you have to factor in the need for a complete refactoring of the architecture. To be frank Torque has late 80's early 90's code and it shows. If you are going to charge more, I'd expect to see heavy use of test driven development. Significant modularisation efforts, better integration with other useful technologies (i.e. allowing us to use common middleware, use STL etc).
One of the significant factors that affects people's choice of engine is productivity. It is fine quoting people who have produced games using the technology, but the issue is not whether it is possible to ship with torque, its how PRODUCTIVE you can be with it. Many people (myself included) are doing this part-time and productivity is the key to actually finishing a product. If there are too many barriers (like having an obscure file format with very picky export pipelines and no documentation) then many products that might have seen the light of day simply never get finished. The dream of GG when it started was to empower more people to produce games, but the harsh reality has been exaggerated by the quirky codebase and content pipeline. When you are on a limited budget, you really REALLY need the usability of your tools to be top notch. Which is generally where your flash's and your 3dsmax's shine (ok, for the complexity of the task they do).
So a big issue for me, would be that to consider changing the price, you accept that usability has to be *significantly* easier. It has to be easy to incorporate content from third party tools, it has to be easy to prototype gameplay and environments for artists. It has to be easy to then deploy the game across to its target platform.
Fix the two problems of an ageing codebase and poor usability and I believe changing the price is absolutely fine.
So here are my suggestions for pricing structure:
$0-$50 A "tools only" version. No source, non commercial use only.
$150-250 A "non commercial indie" license. Includes source, but doesn't allow for commercial distribution of products.
$250-$500 A "commercial indie" licence. Includes source, allows distribution of commercial products.
$1000-$1500 A "commercial" license. Source included, support included, unlimited product releases/skus.
Currently you're biggest real direct competitor for comparison has to be Unity. I'm sure you're well aware of unity's capabilities and by all accounts its usability and stability are far in advance of torques (I dont use it, but most of the people I know do). The significant difference between Unity and Torque is the source availability. Torque would definitely have the advantage here, if it werent for the outdated codebase. Many people I know have opted for the non-source Unity because the source access has little value if the source is difficult to use. A $500 source-available product that has the features, usability and stability of Unity would be a no brainer.
01/10/2009 (2:43 am)
Pricing pricing pricing. Hard thing to consider.@Brett: I think you did right to post this blog. But your comparison of other products is incorrect. You are comparing products like 3dsMax, Maya, Flash to torque, when in reality you should be comparing C4, Unity and Lawgiver. Max, Maya and the rest are broad market commodity applications where as torque is a middleware library. The comparison with engines like Unreal are also flawed, because someone licenses unreal for the toolset, support and codebase, not just the codebase. Plus unreal is aimed at publishers, not developers.
I've been using torque for a very long time now, I've also used a ton of other engines, including a lot of open source ones recently. I'm waiting for Unity on the windows platform before evaluating that. I am trying to establish that I have no overall bias, do not consider myself a fanboy of any particular flavour of platform/engine.
The way I see it, Torque hit the nail on the head with its original price point, because it was a) cheap enough that people could try it out b) cheap enough that they were forgiving of its "issues"
Now that you are thinking of changing the price point, then lets re-evaluate the situation:
Torque's codebase although extended with features has not significantly altered in its architecture since the first release. In order to consider changing the price, you have to factor in the need for a complete refactoring of the architecture. To be frank Torque has late 80's early 90's code and it shows. If you are going to charge more, I'd expect to see heavy use of test driven development. Significant modularisation efforts, better integration with other useful technologies (i.e. allowing us to use common middleware, use STL etc).
One of the significant factors that affects people's choice of engine is productivity. It is fine quoting people who have produced games using the technology, but the issue is not whether it is possible to ship with torque, its how PRODUCTIVE you can be with it. Many people (myself included) are doing this part-time and productivity is the key to actually finishing a product. If there are too many barriers (like having an obscure file format with very picky export pipelines and no documentation) then many products that might have seen the light of day simply never get finished. The dream of GG when it started was to empower more people to produce games, but the harsh reality has been exaggerated by the quirky codebase and content pipeline. When you are on a limited budget, you really REALLY need the usability of your tools to be top notch. Which is generally where your flash's and your 3dsmax's shine (ok, for the complexity of the task they do).
So a big issue for me, would be that to consider changing the price, you accept that usability has to be *significantly* easier. It has to be easy to incorporate content from third party tools, it has to be easy to prototype gameplay and environments for artists. It has to be easy to then deploy the game across to its target platform.
Fix the two problems of an ageing codebase and poor usability and I believe changing the price is absolutely fine.
So here are my suggestions for pricing structure:
$0-$50 A "tools only" version. No source, non commercial use only.
$150-250 A "non commercial indie" license. Includes source, but doesn't allow for commercial distribution of products.
$250-$500 A "commercial indie" licence. Includes source, allows distribution of commercial products.
$1000-$1500 A "commercial" license. Source included, support included, unlimited product releases/skus.
Currently you're biggest real direct competitor for comparison has to be Unity. I'm sure you're well aware of unity's capabilities and by all accounts its usability and stability are far in advance of torques (I dont use it, but most of the people I know do). The significant difference between Unity and Torque is the source availability. Torque would definitely have the advantage here, if it werent for the outdated codebase. Many people I know have opted for the non-source Unity because the source access has little value if the source is difficult to use. A $500 source-available product that has the features, usability and stability of Unity would be a no brainer.
#140
Also, about removing the the GG Logos from the splash screen... it doesn't make much sense to do that.
1: It helps get new customers to use Torque which keeps GG afloat (the issue at hand) and helps pay for everything and can help lower costs to keep the price down.
2: Why hide that you used a 3rd party engine? I don't recall too many companies not proudly showing off they used Unreal 3, Source, or most versions of IdTech. I personally like to see examples of an engine and have myself even bought things that were made with Torque just to see what it could do and wouldn't have if it had been unnamed.
01/10/2009 (2:43 am)
I'm really liking the idea put forth of the "down payment" with an upgrade if you ship as a traditional method. Also, what if we could have a single game license that was drastically cheaper than getting an unlimited game license? Maybe even do the whole thing XNA Community Live style where you can get a subscription on like a yearly basis and then if you finish a game you have the option of A) Publishing on Garage Games store and they get a cut or B) Purchase a once per a title license to publish. Go with maybe having the subscription fee like $180 dollars a year ($15 bucks a month just like an MMO before anyone shouts it's outrageous) and option B comparable to a current Commercial license. I think it's perfectly reasonable to pay once per a game, especially if the price is significantly lower than an unlimited license and is a flat fee.Also, about removing the the GG Logos from the splash screen... it doesn't make much sense to do that.
1: It helps get new customers to use Torque which keeps GG afloat (the issue at hand) and helps pay for everything and can help lower costs to keep the price down.
2: Why hide that you used a 3rd party engine? I don't recall too many companies not proudly showing off they used Unreal 3, Source, or most versions of IdTech. I personally like to see examples of an engine and have myself even bought things that were made with Torque just to see what it could do and wouldn't have if it had been unnamed.

Torque Owner Britton LaRoche