Game Development Community

dev|Pro Game Development Curriculum

Torque 3D Sidebar - Pricing and Licensing

by Brett Seyler · 01/09/2009 (6:57 am) · 369 comments

static.garagegames.com/static/pg/blogs/jason-hetu/Torque-3D_Development-Blog-Header.png
68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/buffett-rounded-bordered.pngThis is probably the most candid blog post I'll write all year. It's also likely to be quite long. I'm aiming here to communicate a lot of things and I'm hoping they come out in nice fluid arc, but we'll see. It's supposed to be about GG and you, but we might take some twists and turns getting there. I should also warn anyone who's willing to read through this that there are no clear answers in this blog, just thoughts and questions.

While I'm sitting here starting to write this, I'm thinking about how much I like reading Warren Buffett's shareholder letters. I'm certainly not alone in admiring his frank, honest, pull-no-punches style. Buffett's customers are his shareholders, but I notice that very few companies write to their customers this way. What would it be like if they did?

I'm certainly not arrogant enough to draw any kind of comparison between me and the Sage of Omaha, but I really going to try to follow his example in candor and clear communication about business goals.

Most of you probably don't know that I did finance and investment work before joining GG. Though I've always been into games and technology my whole life, it's still a a very weird kind of transition to make from that button up world to the laid back, but hyper-competitve world of a startup software company. Obviously, GG is much more fun, but it's almost demanding in a lot of the same ways finance was for me. You might be surprised how much business is just business, and finding ways to succeed and get more done is universal across those kind of boundaries.

There are a bunch of subjects I'll likely wander around in this post, but the one that bears this post's title is the focus...

RUH-ROH! I can hear the alarm bells going off..."GG is raising prices! I knew it!!!!!!!!!!"

I'll just tear the Band-aid away quickly then. Torque 3D will have a higher price tag than GG'ers are used to from Torque. How much higher? I'm not sure yet to be honest...I've given it a lot of thought, but in the past few months, when I've looked to you guys for feedback, it's always been helpful and understanding, so I figured I'd push my luck and do it again =)

Here are the core principles for GG and Torque that I'm trying to stay true to in working this out:


(1) Make sure that Torque licensing is a sustainable business that allows for signicant reinvestment in the technology--enough to keep Torque at the forefront of modern game engines.


(2) Eat our own dog food. This means we use what we sell, reinforcing the need to reinvest in the technology.


(3) Leverage modern distribution options. This means web publishing, downloadable channels, and any other efforts that upset that status quo in publishing and put more money and control in the developer's hands.


(4) Remain an affordable option for the little guy.



Obviously there's a balance to be struck attempting to serve both (1) and (4). However, there may be less conflict than you'd think. For example, let me talk about (1) a little bit.

Why I'm not worried about Epic or AAA

We made a decision with Torque a long time ago not to compete head to head the top competition in the AAA space. That competitions has emerged in the past decade to be Epic's Unreal engine, first and foremost. While Torque can do a LOT of what Unreal can do, we're executing on a much different business model and strategy...part of it is idealistic, part's pragmatic.

68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/markrein-rounded-bordered.pngThe Unreal engine is driven by the needs of Epic's studio to deliver every year, without fail, on a game with the highest visual impact possible. They succeed, more or less, in doing this with Unreal Tournament and Gears of War. These huge budget AAA games subsidize the enormous cost of developing technology that keeps the games looking better than anything else. By extension, the Unreal engine is percieved as being the best technology at any given time. (Seem like circular logic? Keep reading.)

Sure...there are disturbances in the force. Upstarts like Crytek or Gamebryo steal the limelight now and then, but let's be realistic, Unreal dominates AAA engine licensing. When I say AAA, I mean licensing for use in big budget AAA titles. If you're building a $10-$30M game, you're looking at Unreal first. It inspires confidence in your publisher (guaranteeing more money) and it says to the media and press that "this game is going to achieve a certain visual quality bar that you expect from games made with Unreal." This last part in particular is crucial to the hype-train that gets gamers to pay $60 for a game on release day.

Sound like any other industry you can think of? Come...let's all share in the let down and pretend we didn't just get screwed.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't admire Epic's success in both engine licensing and game development. They've figured out how the game is played and beat everyone under the current ruleset. My hat's off to them. But a lot of this blockbuster-game-driven perception about engines is crap IMO. The dirty little secret in AAA games is that great art, far more than tech, creates visual quality. Even so, "UE = visual superiority => best engine" is the common thinking in the games industry and no one--NO ONE--has been able to break Epic's stranglehold on this section of the middleware market for the better part of decade.

How would you change things if it were your desire to do so?

There are two paths that I see...

You can try to beat Epic at their own game. To do this you'd need a premiere game studio with huge budgets to consistently impress on developers and the press that Unreal is no longer the best performing engine tech around. This means truly high end tech and *really* high end artists that can push the technology's boundaries.

Crytek appears to be trying to execute on this strategy, and they've had some success. id, while a major innovator in game dev technology, appears only casually interested in upsetting the state of Epic's AAA middleware domination. Gamebryo has some good tech and a good marketing / sales team, but no dedicated studio to consistently test the tech and then demonstrate where they stack up next to Unreal or other AAA competitors, so I think they're doomed to fail in AAA. Valve plays a role similar to id. They appear to only casually pursuing licensing of their Source engine.

So that's it... Crytek is the only reasonable candidate to unseat Epic as the AAA engine licensing champion. Why don't I think that will happen? In order to do it, Crytek needs to do it year after year for a sustained period of time, and that demands a lot of money. Epic's makes financially successful games that subsidize the costs of developing their tech. Crytek, to date, has not.

Even for hardcore gamers and the press, it's not just about the good looks, it's also about being on the right platforms, being able to tell a good story in-game. Developers have to find the right gameplay hooks to make a game rewarding. As visually impressive as Crysis is (far more than any UE3 game IMO), the game lacked what was needed to achieve maintream (and financial) success. Minimum hardware requirements that were totally off the charts on the game's release didn't help much either.


68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/aaa-well-served.png

Does it make sense for GarageGames to try to go to head-to-head with Epic in the same fashion? Well, maybe we'd consider it if the AAA engine licensing space were a growth market or currently underserved, but it's neither. AAA engine licensing has been a fairly stagnant market for years now and Epic'c never conceded more than about 50% of the available revenue, so I don't know about you, but doing bloody battle for a slice of a pie that isn't growing seems kind silly to me.

So, if not head-to-head with Epic, where does Torque fit? What's the angle? Well, our goal is not really to "beat" Epic, it's to change the game (in the "meta" sense of the word). We think it's dumb that games cost $60 and that the best selling games published by the biggest publishers all essentially answer to Walmart.


Games should be cheaper.

Gamers should have more variety.

Developers should feel comfortable taking more risks.



None of these are possible without upsetting the status quo. This is why we created Torque and put a $100 no royalties price tag on it in 2001. This is why we created InstantAction.com so that we could build our own audience and connect gamers to developers with no interference from publishers or retailers. Both efforts serve the same goal of making it easier (and more affordable) for developers to take risks.

Torque exists to provide developers (starting with our own game studio) with the means to take these kinds of risks, to create games that can achieve AAA-level visual quality, but with a focus on what makes games fun. We want our studio and you to innovate in ways that matter most to gamers. Portal didn't need next-gen visuals or a multi-million dollare engine to win over gamers. It could have easily been built with Torque. Just the same, Marble Blast Ultra didn't need super-high end rendering. To make the point even clearer, look at Phil Hassey's Galcon. Phil built this game in Python all by himself and it's currently one of the most played games on InstantAction.


68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/portal-bordered.png

We think this evolution, bridging the divide between developers and gamers, enabling greater risk taking at lower cost, is where the industry must go. The faster it gets there, the more Torque makes sense to a wider audience of game developers. As a company, we've always aimed to support platforms and technologies that make this happen faster. I put Steam, WiiWare, XBLA, PSN, id's Quakelive and InstantAction.com all on that list. In fact, without Steam, I doubt Valve could comfortably afford to take the kind or risks they do. We'd all, as gamers and game developers, be much worse off without if they hadn't bucked the system and created the most effective digital distribution platform on the planet. (Go Valve!)

Let's think again about the balance between enabling the little guy, and being in a position to reinvest in Torque and sustain this effort to encourage risk taking in games. Who do we mean by the little guy? Does a hobbyist who never publishes anything serve these goals? Probably not...let's talk about that...

We're building Torque to enable a particular set of developers: those who can persevere though the challenge of game development. This means outfits like Fro Games, Stickman Studios, Sickhead Games, and Tilted Mill to cite some recent examples. In the recent Game Developer profile on TGEA for the Front Line awards, I think they hit the nail on the head.


68.233.5.139/~transfer/Pics/Frontline_Banner.jpg
68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/andy-frontline.png


Are you one of these developers? A lot of you might not know yet. Some of you may not know whether you even want to push that hard or take that much time. You might be happy with game development as a curiousity and have no interest in ever publishing your work. This does not mean Torque is not for you.

Just as Photoshop, Flash, Max and Maya are built for professional use with professional licensees in mind, so is Torque. And just as plenty of amateurs and hobbyists use Adobe and Autodesk tools with no intention of making their work public, so will amateur and hobbyist Torque users. Still, often times, these tools make professionals of people who didn't know if they had what it in them, and we hope Torque does the same.

If we want Torque to effectively serve professionals and that set of developers who have the fortitude and talent to give it a real shot, we need to re-evaluate Torque's license fee. We can't do this effectively for $150 / seat, at least not with Torque 3D. Torque has thousands and thousands of licensees, but developing engine technology is very complicated and very expensive--certainly more complicated and expensive than developing games.

Attaching a $150 / seat price Torque has created a quality perception that does not do justice to Torque's capabilities. GarageGames could *easily* spin out a new business under a different banner and sell TGEA / Torque 3D right next to all the other major AAA engines for hundreds of thousands of dollars per title. Why don't we? Because it doesn't help us with (3) or (4). We'd be quickly assimilated into the tiny space left over by Epic and fighting tooth and nail with everyone else for 3-4 licensing tile deals per year. It wouldn't help us with games. It would disrupt the broken industry model. It wouldn't do much of anything good for games or gamers.

So what price makes sense? What's commensurate with the value Torque provides? Again, I don't know the answer to this yet. It's not $150 / seat and it's not $295 / seat. Perhaps it's $1000. Perhaps it's more. I look at products like Flash ($699) or 3ds Max ($3495) / Maya ($4995) and compare them with Torque. Torque is more complex from an engineering perspective and Torque is in a smaller, more niche market. Both of these factors would argue for a higher price. What about (4)? What's affordable for the little guy? What's going to be the right price that makes it acceptable for developers who ship product to feel comfortable taking risks with a good chance of success? Hard questions to answer.


68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/pricing.png

I've also noticed that Unity, which appears to be competing more with Flash than game engines, is priced many multiples higher than Torque and yet, it's attracted a license base of primarily hobbyists and amateur developers. Even though Unity now offers a lower priced "Indie" version of its tool that deprecates major features and significant license freedom, for a long time you couldn't buy Unity for less than $1000 / seat. How does that compare with Torque (a much more capable and mature engine technology that actually provides source code)?

There's another consideration that's really important to me, and that's all you reading this. Many of you have been loyal GG customers and Torque users for a long time...in some cases much longer than I've been here myself. You've become accustomed to Torque's low price. Even if it costs GG money in the short term, I don't want to see this community lose is vibrance or engagement because Torque's no longer an affordable technology to stay current with.

While I haven't figured out how it will work yet, I have decided that when Torque 3D is ready for relase, we'll offer it with an option that makes it much more affordable for TGEA owners to make the move. New licensees who don't already own TGEA at that point will pay full price, whatever that ends up being. I should also note that TGEA 1.8 will probably remain an affordable option at the low end throughout 2009, but if we can, we'll provide a better, affordable substitute with Torque 3D...perhaps with some sort of meaningful feature or license delta. This might mean that Indie vs. Commercial changes, or goes away as well.

My ideal outcome is that in mid-2009, everyone who wants to continue working with Torque in the future will be using Torque 3D and sharing resources and knowledge with the rest of the community. This product is the largest investment we've ever made in engine tech and our expectations are high, but better I think to disclose our thoughts and intentions on things like this sooner rather than later. I'm very confident that for those of you who are really engaged in making games, upgrading to Torque 3D will be an easy choice well justified by the value it adds to your talent and dedication.

More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #5.

Torque 3D development blogs:



About the author

Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.

#101
01/09/2009 (6:13 pm)
Quote:@Jeremy:
What I want to know is, what in Torque3D is going to help
me make better games, faster and easier.

Art Pipeline?
Scripting Modifications?
Network Subsystem Modifications?
Audio Subsystem Modifications?
Multiplatform support?
Tool modifications?
Various Physics SDK Intergrations?

What are you doing to make it easier?
That's what I want to know.

This. Totally.
#102
01/09/2009 (6:15 pm)
GG employees,

I need to ask a question, and I do not mean this to be negative at all. Who are these "valued customers" that I keep seeing referred to. The thing is.. I think some innocent comments (and some not so innocent one's Davey!! lol) are coming across in ways probably not intended. I wanted to put my thoughts down now that I've had time to think about it some more, but it will have to wait till later.

As I said in not so many words.. it says something to open up such a discussion to the community, especially when you know it's going to draw alot of heat.
#103
01/09/2009 (6:20 pm)
Like everybody else posting here, I really love the various incarnations of the GG engines. Obviously, or we wouldn't be so passionate about something like pricing.

Part of the problem is the nearly 7 years I've invested in learning and using this engine. I can't stop writing games, but I can only afford so much, and if the price increases too much, I'll just have to gravitate to a new engine. *INSERT BIG FROWNY FACE HERE*

If I could have a vote (and maybe I could), I'd just ask that an inexpensive version ($150 - $300) be available for my tinkering. I'll gladly pay more if I sold a game.

I love the energy here. The employees always seem energetic (whether it be upbeat or passionate) and the ideas flowing around in the blogs, forums, and resources are amazing. I hope I can be a part of it for the next 7 years.
#104
01/09/2009 (6:21 pm)
OK, I'm not as long-winded as some others here. I'll summarize my opinions with a list:

- Upcharge $100-$200 for T3D. Go more than that and you're asking for trouble.

- You guys are releasing too many engines too close to each other. It is starting to shake people's faith in your commitment to quality. People feel left behind when you talk about releasing a new engine when there are still unaddressed bugs in prior engines. If you need to turn more profit, maybe you could concentrate on more content packs or creating more commercial games using your tech.

- Please add more shiny features standard in most engines. This includes an integrated physics solution and stencil buffer/shadowmap shadows. Add those in successfully and you can name your price.
#105
01/09/2009 (6:22 pm)
After reading just about everyone's comment's I retract what I said before about abandoning TGE. TGE still has it's place at Garage Games. Maybe don't update it, but keep it around for sale and allow the community to continue to update it as they always have via the resources they put up to help others out.

TGE is still a good option for dreamers that can't afford TGEA. It's kinda like when the Super Nintendo was about dead and Playstation was to be reign supreme; what if they would have said screw it before more of the Donkey Kong country games came out, which had some of the best graphics of any of the SNES games.

As for the pricing of T3D in my own opinion, if you want to still be GG sell the T3D Indie License for no more than twice the current cost of TGEA. Otherwise change the name of the company and drop the Indie references...

Also don't change the licensing let Indies actually be able to make the X amount of profit before having to upgrade to commercial.

Though I can say I like the idea of selling various features separately to those who feel they need them and can afford them. For example if someone really would love physics in their game they could pay an extra X amount of dollars to get what others might decide is too costly for them.
#106
01/09/2009 (6:28 pm)
Debra,

I was about to stop following this thread until your post. Once I see employees calling out customers, I lose interest very, very fast. That should never happen.

That being said one thing I notice is that 3D Max is listed as almost $3500, what is missing is that Autodesk now owns XSI, which has stated that they will continue to support the FREE XSI Modtool. So, a very good 3D tool is way below the $3500 mark(non-commercial). Let's not forget Houdini which sells Apprentice (through GG) for $99 and it contains most of the features in Houdini Master which sells for over $7,000 and includes a Torque exporter.

For now I am using TGEA as a learning tool and as a Hobby, so the price does not matter that much. However, GG should keep in mind that the companies listed above are continuously rolling in updates and improvements as the community find BUGs are issues. At a higher price I would want to see a daily or weekly build update, look at Houdini's site. They offer daily builds. As I understand GG used to do this. Now I have to dig through the forums to find out if changes have been made.

Also T3D will need to include PhysX integration or at least easy integration with other Physics engines.

Add a better GUI, integrated PhysX, a better art pipeline (native Collada support) and I would easily pay $300 for an Indie version with no code, and a Indie Pro version that gives me code access for about $1500 ( I know Unity's levels, but you can change it). With the ability to sell games with both. Perhaps under $50,000 for the Indie and $100,000 for the Pro before having to move to commercial.
#107
01/09/2009 (6:37 pm)
@Randy: Thanks for sticking around to give your 2 cents. Sorry a few of us got passionate. We knew this would be a hard blog, but we're also excited for the future. We just got a little worked up, not because we wanted to be seen as rude, but because many of us have dedicated years to Torque, just like you have.

We'll reign it in a little and let you guys continue to talk. ^_^
#108
01/09/2009 (6:38 pm)
You know i keep seeing this "move to a new engine if it costs too much" phase being thrown around freely.. almost threateningly? Are you telling me that there is a better engine for cheaper? I mean Really, give me a break folks, if you could have found a better engine. Most of you would be there and not using torque. The recent advances have been pretty nice considering the past.

On the other hand I do understand that there has been some past issues, with Bugs, Documentation, and some missing promised features. But its good to see that finally torque is getting some love thats drawing some attention and usually when something gets some light shined on it things get done.

Me, personally, i think that 1.8 was a bit of a working stage push, but 1.7.1 seems to be the level where folks are at. maybe 1.8.1 will see a but more love before we see T3D. Either way if its 300 or 1000 or what ever, I am sure someone is going to make a few good choices and a few hard choices.
#109
01/09/2009 (6:43 pm)
Just to inject some thoughts here:

HDTV = $1500
XBox 360 (non-elite) = $300
4 games @ $60 = $240

So, just to get started with this "hobby" ... without spending money on a comfy chair or another controller .. or whatever else is: $2040. Alright, how many consoles/games do we all own? I personally own a 360/PS3/Wii/PS2 and an ungodly number of games, including PC games. That includes having spent waaaay too much $$$ on Guitar Hero and Rock Band crap.

Let's stay realistic here... and realize some of the passion involved isn't how much Torque 3D is worth... it is weighing how much the hobby is worth to you, personally. I have absolute faith that the people who understand this stuff far more than I are listening... and that the ultimate decision on all this will make absolute sense... and if it is obvious we've made a terrible mistake, it'll be corrected.

So, make games and have fun... with whatever engine/methods/art/concepts/designs/distribution works for you!
#110
01/09/2009 (6:46 pm)
Hey all,
I've been tracking this blog/thread all day and it is pretty cool to see so much feedback. We really do want to hear your ideas (which is why we asked =)!

I've seen a lot of concern about the quality of Torque 3D and I can honestly say that you have nothing to fear. I am at the helm of Torque 3D and I will make sure that we continue to raise our quality standards by leaps and bounds.

Think back, if you will, to how far we jumped in quality and stability from TGE 1.4 to TGE 1.5. You may not have realized it but I was the one directly responsible for setting the course for TGE 1.5 (and did most of the work =P) and I made sure that we spent a *lot* more time polishing and fixing than we did adding new (riskier) features and I think it shows. I also turned around and released an update to 1.4 that included a lot of those fixes so that people who weren't able to update right away would benefit for it. I can't promise you that we will ship a similar update to TGEA 1.8 on the same day as Torque 3D (we are on a tight deadline) but helping our 1.8 customers is definitely a concern of mine.

For those of you who aren't as familiar with the transition from TGE 1.4 to TGE 1.5 (it has been a while), you may be more familiar with the transition from TGEA 1.0.3 to TGEA 1.7. Again, I led the project and the focus was on quality and TGEA 1.7 was worlds better than TGEA had *ever* been. It even raised the bar on quality and polish as compared to TGE 1.5 (I'm thinking of the docs and the better code modularization). Then we turned around and fixed over a hundred bugs in TGEA 1.7.0 and released it for free as TGEA 1.7.1.

You can also look at how much more polish and stability went into moving TGEA 1.8 out of beta in a single short month. When you consider that we completely replaced the biggest subsystem in the engine, I think a handful of easily remedied bugs is perfectly reasonable to expect. Even I was impressed at how much we got done =)

With Torque 3D I am bringing an even greater focus on the quality, polish, and presentation of Torque. While there are some cool new features being rolled in and we are fixing some of the older systems that have needed replacing for a long time (like Terrain and the art pipeline) the majority of the team (and it is a *huge* team compared to what I had to work with for TGE 1.5, TGEA 1.7, and TGEA 1.8) is focusing on making sure that you have a smooth and even fun experience making games in Torque.

I stand by my work and I give you my assurance that Torque 3D is going to be a product worth owning!
#111
01/09/2009 (7:15 pm)
@Matt -

The thing for me is not that I question your code - I've seen it. You do good work, I have faith.

But for me, and perhaps many here that do not make a living from writing games, the question is: Can I pay for this without my wife divorcing me? And if I do manage to pay for this, It feels like the customer base will go down, meaning the content packs will dry up and/or rise in price - Can I then afford artwork?

Brett basically says that you want to make Torque look better by charging a higher price. This seems like a poor reason to raise the price. I think you are ALREADY making torque look better by actually putting work in the engine, fixing the bugs that have been plaguing it for years, and finally documenting it. I don't want it priced out of my reach, nor do I wish to see the content packs dry up.

:(
#112
01/09/2009 (7:15 pm)
While I think "bug filled" and "bug ridden" are some pretty harsh descriptions, we know there are areas of Torque that can be improved.

If you have any specific bugs, resources, or requests you want us to look into please feel free to head over to this forum post and make yourself heard.
#113
01/09/2009 (7:26 pm)
@Matt & GG

Torque has stopped being more stable starting 1.5 (including) - it became a system hog (the last most stable release was 1.4.x). Things got better (slightly) with 1.8 release, but it does not justify it...

I would say, when GG fix Torque for low end video cards (intel 900/950/965), only that very moment people start looking at Torque 3D as a product worth more then $150/license (I know you put a lot of work into, but...) the engine did not pass our QA department when we were evaluating it for a next casual game that will work on most machines which are, unfortunately, Intel 900/950/965 based; the typical excuse that "Intel reports the capabilities incorrectly" does not fly as other middleware suppliers like Unity3D solved it in a very flexible way, so the games based on Unity do work everywhere).
#114
01/09/2009 (7:40 pm)
@ Davey
Quote:I'm open to hearing constructive feedback on the new docs from people I respect, but showing up on a thread and just spouting mindless dribble like "The documentation is a joke and the Torque portfolio is underwhelming" is going to earn you a smack down.
Not good.

@Josh
Quote:Wow, what a great blog and discussion. Keep it up everyone!!! However, if you feel mostly like pouring gasoline... maybe calm down a little bit before posting. You'll do yourself and others a favor ;)
Awesome. :-)

@Deborah
Quote:Sorry a few of us got passionate
So do the rest of us. No apology needed. :-)

I understand the reason for this type of blog. The problem with it is, some see this as "Just another corperate trying to pave the way to raising the price above my head". This is like pulling the dream out from under a person. When people find their dreams getting slammed, they get passionate really fast. I've already survived it once with another engine. It is not a fun road to travel.
When you did the blog for iTorque, it went the same way this one has. Lots of passion. Lots of Super high recomendations by the commercial members, and really small numbers from the hobbiests. In the end, you settled on a decent price, but the lisence sucked. (enough that I won't even consider it) I know you all will make the right decision for you, and I also know you are thinking about us, but I worry about how this is going to play out for those like me.
Please don't strangle those of us who want to make a game, but most likely wont with a lisence anywhere simular to itorque. It will kill the hobbiests, and, in the end, this entire community.

Edit to add:
Quote:Alright, how many consoles/games do we all own?
None. I own 3 computers, 2 from the company I used to own, and a $100.00 mac I purchased from ebay.
10 computer games from $10.00-$35.00 each.
#115
01/09/2009 (7:47 pm)
Alexander,
We are well aware of the Intel chipset issues and it is definitely on our list of things we'd like to address as soon as possible. Feel free to post anything you find out (specific crashes, rendering issues, reproduction cases) over in the TGEA Bug Forum. Anything you have will only help us solve these issues faster.
#116
01/09/2009 (8:05 pm)
I have no concerns about the quality of the code. It never has been "bug ridden" I've never seen better response time (in the BUG forums) or better support from any company anywhere. I give the code base an A. I give the support an A+

If you think otherwise then I think its your code that has the bugs. I don't care how "big company" Garage Games gets either. As long as Microsoft never buys you, I'm happy.

I care about the vision and the business model. And yes the license and the price is a big part of that. Its the GG vision I am afraid that is changing when the starving artists with all that great talent can't afford the price tag. I love Buccaneer. I love the story behind it. My fear is with a $1,000.00 price tag Buccaneer would never have set sail.

I also fear all the new indie games that would be crushed by this price hike (if its too high). Here is one last idea that may satisfy all. How about a $300.00 code license that gets you access to the source. When you finish the game you need to pay the full indie license (before you sell your game), or you make payments from sales. Half now... half on delivery.

The idea is kind of a game engine finance plan. That keeps the "hobbiest" and starving artists in the loop. The only down side to this model is that I'm afraid 99% of all GG customers have yet to finish their game.
#117
01/09/2009 (8:35 pm)
Britton: "hobbiest" and starving artists

why not the other way around ? starving hobbyist sounds a lot better :)
#118
01/09/2009 (8:38 pm)
Quote:That keeps the "hobbiest" and starving artists in the loop. The only down side to this model is that I'm afraid 99% of all GG customers have yet to finish their game.

That kinda hits the nail on the head though, better to provide that "99%" or whatever the real figure is with a reasonably priced first step, presumably get a higher volume of sales and keep the community vibrant and flourishing. Then have the $1000 (for example) license as a next step up for the smaller percentage who progress to releasing games.

If the first step is at the $1000 mark there'll be chunk of GG's traditional customer demographic who simply won't make that first step, and no doubt some of them would be people who could have gone on to be future community keystones or even GG employees.

@Josh Engebretson

Quote:HDTV = $1500
XBox 360 (non-elite) = $300
4 games @ $60 = $240

I get what you're saying about the relative value of things, but to be fair people don't "take a chance" on a HDTV, 360, etc, they know what they're getting and know they'll get good use out of it. Personally I took a chance on TGE because it was affordable. Sure, I did some research, but it's still a leap of faith into a new, uncommon and potentially expensive hobby that might not work out. I wouldn't be here if the entry point was $1000+.

@Davey Jackson

Customer relations obviously isn't your strong point, I'd say you're lucky people here are taking it in their stride because negative CS experiences carry far more weight than any amount of positive.
#119
01/09/2009 (9:02 pm)
@Ross,

Quote:

That kinda hits the nail on the head though, better to provide that "99%" or whatever the real figure is with a reasonably priced first step, presumably get a higher volume of sales and keep the community vibrant and flourishing. Then have the $1000 (for example) license as a next step up for the smaller percentage who progress to releasing games.


Bingo! I thought about what you just said and it matches my universal model of "linked satisfaction" the key to any long term business transaction is that both parties are mutually satisfied.


If GG gets an extra $1,000 when the game is finsihed, that motivates GG to help the indie finish his / her game, rather than focusing on the latest "pretty colors" whiz bang effect. It will pull GG into the loop of helping the indie "finish the game."

I's say that is an awesome business model. I'd pay the $300 upgrade to get the T3D source and gladly pay another $1,000 when I finished my game. Its a win / win. Both parties are happy. I'd bet that would shift the focus at GG quite a bit. You'd see more concentration on tutorials, starter packs. A working FPS example with CTF / AI and death match already coded in.

You'd see better art pipelines, a happier community and a tremendous increase in sales. Instead of doing a lot of work just to get a game type coded in T3D, it would be ready and waiting... just like the unreal engine does for its mod developer.

www.worth1000.com/entries/376500/376974TYBX_w.jpg
Honestly I think that's the "big guys" pay alot of money and choose unreal, its not the perfect shader technology... its the shortened development cycle. I mean no offense when I say this. But the unreal mod development is totally awesome. Unreal ed is as easy as pie. I miss it sorely. Triggers, built in AI path finding, omg it was awesome. Sniff... I'd never left unreal if they had an indie license.
#120
01/09/2009 (9:31 pm)
Now, I get the meaning of the Warren Buffet picture! He'll be the only one left to afford the engine! :)

Joking aside, reading the posts has provided me with an eye opening experience from the POV's of the GG crew and its customers. Thank you.

----------
Apart from Gamebyo (maybe), the other AAA engines made a name for themselves not because of their game engines, but because of the innovative games they produced.

Unreal, Doom, Half-life, and FarCry were decent games that the general public loved - and they made enough money to continue their tech research. Other companies noticed their success and wanted in on the deal, which is why there's a high premium on their engines.

GG has done the reverse - they've made the game engine but now need a flagship product that will wow the crowd. This hasn't happened yet. Impressive demos don't cut it. Sure, Marble Ultra Blast is good, but we're talking "serious" AAA games. MUB is not that serious.

Then, Torque pricing is compared to the likes of 3DMax, Maya, and Flash. Is Torque recognized by the TV, Film or commercial industries? Didn't Maya or the company, win an Academy Award? Isn't Flash used in a lot of cartoons you see on TV? Isn't 3DMax the #1 modeller in the world? Is Torque any of these? Not yet, but close.

As for Unity, it was the only game in town for Mac users. Now that GG has shown up, they may need to lower their prices, but right now, they still have market share.

Here's the thing:

Why is GG spreading itself so thin in order to corner every platform market out there? Most of us can't get Nintendo, Sony or Microsoft licenses in the first place, so why spend a great deal of time pursuing it? Are there a lot of Corporate-licensed Indie users using Torque? The only potential products are TGB and TorqueX (which most of your customerbase might turn to after the price hike).

Out of all the AAA companies, GG probably has the largest number of potential "virtual" employees out there. Every license user and demo downloader could contribute to the Torque engine codebase. I'm sure that some of the bugs in TGEA 1.8 right now have been fixed already by people in the GG community. To have GG look into those problems would be an easier time. With the community's help, the ability to turnover code and apply fixes would be astonishing. Why not put the community to use? Apparatus is a good example of finding excellent talent in the community. GG employee would then be looking for viable solutions instead of problems.

Maybe GG should include a "repatriate" clause in their licenses, so that innovative ideas (bug fixes, added functionality, created/enhanced tools, and other innovate things to make the engine "work better") from "successful clients" are fed back into the engine . This would benefit the engine as a whole, especially when it's the customers who are making most of these efforts. The Resources page is a start, but quite a few entries are now obsolete. GG has provided us with a great engine at a low cost. We, the community, should pay back in kind by helping/fixing/innovating the Torque engine as much as we can so that GG can still sell the engine at a reasonable price and at a profit.

The GG community has stepped up to the plate numerous times before to provide code, utilities (exporters) and other functionality that has yet to be seen in the engine itself.

Just look at Blender, for example. I don't think it would be where it is now without its customer base enhancing the application with new features, optimizations and innovations. It's a vaild alternative to any of the $500+ modelling packages (despite the awkward UI and free price).

So in essence, GG needs a Killer app, and a quicker turnaround time for its engine updates.

We can do this!

Thanks,
SC