Torque 3D Sidebar - Pricing and Licensing
by Brett Seyler · 01/09/2009 (6:57 am) · 369 comments

This is probably the most candid blog post I'll write all year. It's also likely to be quite long. I'm aiming here to communicate a lot of things and I'm hoping they come out in nice fluid arc, but we'll see. It's supposed to be about GG and you, but we might take some twists and turns getting there. I should also warn anyone who's willing to read through this that there are no clear answers in this blog, just thoughts and questions. While I'm sitting here starting to write this, I'm thinking about how much I like reading Warren Buffett's shareholder letters. I'm certainly not alone in admiring his frank, honest, pull-no-punches style. Buffett's customers are his shareholders, but I notice that very few companies write to their customers this way. What would it be like if they did?
I'm certainly not arrogant enough to draw any kind of comparison between me and the Sage of Omaha, but I really going to try to follow his example in candor and clear communication about business goals.
Most of you probably don't know that I did finance and investment work before joining GG. Though I've always been into games and technology my whole life, it's still a a very weird kind of transition to make from that button up world to the laid back, but hyper-competitve world of a startup software company. Obviously, GG is much more fun, but it's almost demanding in a lot of the same ways finance was for me. You might be surprised how much business is just business, and finding ways to succeed and get more done is universal across those kind of boundaries.
There are a bunch of subjects I'll likely wander around in this post, but the one that bears this post's title is the focus...
RUH-ROH! I can hear the alarm bells going off..."GG is raising prices! I knew it!!!!!!!!!!"
I'll just tear the Band-aid away quickly then. Torque 3D will have a higher price tag than GG'ers are used to from Torque. How much higher? I'm not sure yet to be honest...I've given it a lot of thought, but in the past few months, when I've looked to you guys for feedback, it's always been helpful and understanding, so I figured I'd push my luck and do it again =)
Here are the core principles for GG and Torque that I'm trying to stay true to in working this out:
(1) Make sure that Torque licensing is a sustainable business that allows for signicant reinvestment in the technology--enough to keep Torque at the forefront of modern game engines.
(2) Eat our own dog food. This means we use what we sell, reinforcing the need to reinvest in the technology.
(3) Leverage modern distribution options. This means web publishing, downloadable channels, and any other efforts that upset that status quo in publishing and put more money and control in the developer's hands.
(4) Remain an affordable option for the little guy.
Obviously there's a balance to be struck attempting to serve both (1) and (4). However, there may be less conflict than you'd think. For example, let me talk about (1) a little bit.
Why I'm not worried about Epic or AAA
We made a decision with Torque a long time ago not to compete head to head the top competition in the AAA space. That competitions has emerged in the past decade to be Epic's Unreal engine, first and foremost. While Torque can do a LOT of what Unreal can do, we're executing on a much different business model and strategy...part of it is idealistic, part's pragmatic.
The Unreal engine is driven by the needs of Epic's studio to deliver every year, without fail, on a game with the highest visual impact possible. They succeed, more or less, in doing this with Unreal Tournament and Gears of War. These huge budget AAA games subsidize the enormous cost of developing technology that keeps the games looking better than anything else. By extension, the Unreal engine is percieved as being the best technology at any given time. (Seem like circular logic? Keep reading.)Sure...there are disturbances in the force. Upstarts like Crytek or Gamebryo steal the limelight now and then, but let's be realistic, Unreal dominates AAA engine licensing. When I say AAA, I mean licensing for use in big budget AAA titles. If you're building a $10-$30M game, you're looking at Unreal first. It inspires confidence in your publisher (guaranteeing more money) and it says to the media and press that "this game is going to achieve a certain visual quality bar that you expect from games made with Unreal." This last part in particular is crucial to the hype-train that gets gamers to pay $60 for a game on release day.
Sound like any other industry you can think of? Come...let's all share in the let down and pretend we didn't just get screwed.
I'd be lying if I said I didn't admire Epic's success in both engine licensing and game development. They've figured out how the game is played and beat everyone under the current ruleset. My hat's off to them. But a lot of this blockbuster-game-driven perception about engines is crap IMO. The dirty little secret in AAA games is that great art, far more than tech, creates visual quality. Even so, "UE = visual superiority => best engine" is the common thinking in the games industry and no one--NO ONE--has been able to break Epic's stranglehold on this section of the middleware market for the better part of decade.
How would you change things if it were your desire to do so?
There are two paths that I see...
You can try to beat Epic at their own game. To do this you'd need a premiere game studio with huge budgets to consistently impress on developers and the press that Unreal is no longer the best performing engine tech around. This means truly high end tech and *really* high end artists that can push the technology's boundaries.
Crytek appears to be trying to execute on this strategy, and they've had some success. id, while a major innovator in game dev technology, appears only casually interested in upsetting the state of Epic's AAA middleware domination. Gamebryo has some good tech and a good marketing / sales team, but no dedicated studio to consistently test the tech and then demonstrate where they stack up next to Unreal or other AAA competitors, so I think they're doomed to fail in AAA. Valve plays a role similar to id. They appear to only casually pursuing licensing of their Source engine.
So that's it... Crytek is the only reasonable candidate to unseat Epic as the AAA engine licensing champion. Why don't I think that will happen? In order to do it, Crytek needs to do it year after year for a sustained period of time, and that demands a lot of money. Epic's makes financially successful games that subsidize the costs of developing their tech. Crytek, to date, has not.
Even for hardcore gamers and the press, it's not just about the good looks, it's also about being on the right platforms, being able to tell a good story in-game. Developers have to find the right gameplay hooks to make a game rewarding. As visually impressive as Crysis is (far more than any UE3 game IMO), the game lacked what was needed to achieve maintream (and financial) success. Minimum hardware requirements that were totally off the charts on the game's release didn't help much either.

Does it make sense for GarageGames to try to go to head-to-head with Epic in the same fashion? Well, maybe we'd consider it if the AAA engine licensing space were a growth market or currently underserved, but it's neither. AAA engine licensing has been a fairly stagnant market for years now and Epic'c never conceded more than about 50% of the available revenue, so I don't know about you, but doing bloody battle for a slice of a pie that isn't growing seems kind silly to me.
So, if not head-to-head with Epic, where does Torque fit? What's the angle? Well, our goal is not really to "beat" Epic, it's to change the game (in the "meta" sense of the word). We think it's dumb that games cost $60 and that the best selling games published by the biggest publishers all essentially answer to Walmart.
Games should be cheaper.
Gamers should have more variety.
Developers should feel comfortable taking more risks.
None of these are possible without upsetting the status quo. This is why we created Torque and put a $100 no royalties price tag on it in 2001. This is why we created InstantAction.com so that we could build our own audience and connect gamers to developers with no interference from publishers or retailers. Both efforts serve the same goal of making it easier (and more affordable) for developers to take risks.
Torque exists to provide developers (starting with our own game studio) with the means to take these kinds of risks, to create games that can achieve AAA-level visual quality, but with a focus on what makes games fun. We want our studio and you to innovate in ways that matter most to gamers. Portal didn't need next-gen visuals or a multi-million dollare engine to win over gamers. It could have easily been built with Torque. Just the same, Marble Blast Ultra didn't need super-high end rendering. To make the point even clearer, look at Phil Hassey's Galcon. Phil built this game in Python all by himself and it's currently one of the most played games on InstantAction.

We think this evolution, bridging the divide between developers and gamers, enabling greater risk taking at lower cost, is where the industry must go. The faster it gets there, the more Torque makes sense to a wider audience of game developers. As a company, we've always aimed to support platforms and technologies that make this happen faster. I put Steam, WiiWare, XBLA, PSN, id's Quakelive and InstantAction.com all on that list. In fact, without Steam, I doubt Valve could comfortably afford to take the kind or risks they do. We'd all, as gamers and game developers, be much worse off without if they hadn't bucked the system and created the most effective digital distribution platform on the planet. (Go Valve!)
Let's think again about the balance between enabling the little guy, and being in a position to reinvest in Torque and sustain this effort to encourage risk taking in games. Who do we mean by the little guy? Does a hobbyist who never publishes anything serve these goals? Probably not...let's talk about that...
We're building Torque to enable a particular set of developers: those who can persevere though the challenge of game development. This means outfits like Fro Games, Stickman Studios, Sickhead Games, and Tilted Mill to cite some recent examples. In the recent Game Developer profile on TGEA for the Front Line awards, I think they hit the nail on the head.


Are you one of these developers? A lot of you might not know yet. Some of you may not know whether you even want to push that hard or take that much time. You might be happy with game development as a curiousity and have no interest in ever publishing your work. This does not mean Torque is not for you.
Just as Photoshop, Flash, Max and Maya are built for professional use with professional licensees in mind, so is Torque. And just as plenty of amateurs and hobbyists use Adobe and Autodesk tools with no intention of making their work public, so will amateur and hobbyist Torque users. Still, often times, these tools make professionals of people who didn't know if they had what it in them, and we hope Torque does the same.
If we want Torque to effectively serve professionals and that set of developers who have the fortitude and talent to give it a real shot, we need to re-evaluate Torque's license fee. We can't do this effectively for $150 / seat, at least not with Torque 3D. Torque has thousands and thousands of licensees, but developing engine technology is very complicated and very expensive--certainly more complicated and expensive than developing games.
Attaching a $150 / seat price Torque has created a quality perception that does not do justice to Torque's capabilities. GarageGames could *easily* spin out a new business under a different banner and sell TGEA / Torque 3D right next to all the other major AAA engines for hundreds of thousands of dollars per title. Why don't we? Because it doesn't help us with (3) or (4). We'd be quickly assimilated into the tiny space left over by Epic and fighting tooth and nail with everyone else for 3-4 licensing tile deals per year. It wouldn't help us with games. It would disrupt the broken industry model. It wouldn't do much of anything good for games or gamers.
So what price makes sense? What's commensurate with the value Torque provides? Again, I don't know the answer to this yet. It's not $150 / seat and it's not $295 / seat. Perhaps it's $1000. Perhaps it's more. I look at products like Flash ($699) or 3ds Max ($3495) / Maya ($4995) and compare them with Torque. Torque is more complex from an engineering perspective and Torque is in a smaller, more niche market. Both of these factors would argue for a higher price. What about (4)? What's affordable for the little guy? What's going to be the right price that makes it acceptable for developers who ship product to feel comfortable taking risks with a good chance of success? Hard questions to answer.

I've also noticed that Unity, which appears to be competing more with Flash than game engines, is priced many multiples higher than Torque and yet, it's attracted a license base of primarily hobbyists and amateur developers. Even though Unity now offers a lower priced "Indie" version of its tool that deprecates major features and significant license freedom, for a long time you couldn't buy Unity for less than $1000 / seat. How does that compare with Torque (a much more capable and mature engine technology that actually provides source code)?
There's another consideration that's really important to me, and that's all you reading this. Many of you have been loyal GG customers and Torque users for a long time...in some cases much longer than I've been here myself. You've become accustomed to Torque's low price. Even if it costs GG money in the short term, I don't want to see this community lose is vibrance or engagement because Torque's no longer an affordable technology to stay current with.
While I haven't figured out how it will work yet, I have decided that when Torque 3D is ready for relase, we'll offer it with an option that makes it much more affordable for TGEA owners to make the move. New licensees who don't already own TGEA at that point will pay full price, whatever that ends up being. I should also note that TGEA 1.8 will probably remain an affordable option at the low end throughout 2009, but if we can, we'll provide a better, affordable substitute with Torque 3D...perhaps with some sort of meaningful feature or license delta. This might mean that Indie vs. Commercial changes, or goes away as well.
My ideal outcome is that in mid-2009, everyone who wants to continue working with Torque in the future will be using Torque 3D and sharing resources and knowledge with the rest of the community. This product is the largest investment we've ever made in engine tech and our expectations are high, but better I think to disclose our thoughts and intentions on things like this sooner rather than later. I'm very confident that for those of you who are really engaged in making games, upgrading to Torque 3D will be an easy choice well justified by the value it adds to your talent and dedication.
More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #5.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#42
However, my biggest issue isn't cost, it's support, documentation, and communications. Can't tell you how many hours we've burned trying to search the community for solutions, or digging through incomplete or deeply outdated documentation (this has improved some over the years.) But the most frustrating thing is not being able to get answers on things like web publishing and other features.
We ended up writing our own web plug-in after trying to get answers online and through direct inquiries to GG and IA about future development or licensing plans. Months into development, web publishing is announced and our money and time has been wasted. We are also now on hold for product release depending on the release date of the web publishing tech. That kind of stuff costs me much more than simply paying a license fee, because of the opportunity cost of the content we could have created instead of tackling core tech.
Just another perspective to consider. Overall we love GG and Torque and are excited to see what the future brings. Good job on communicating at this pivotal time... thanks!
01/09/2009 (12:55 pm)
Coming from the small-but-viable development studio perspective, one with shipped products and an established market, I don't mind paying more for the engine or even royalties (it would be nice to have options there.) I'd pay 10k a seat probably -- it was almost that for some of our Maya Complete licenses. But, a level designers seat shouldn't cost as much as a engine programmers since there's a huge difference between using the Terrain GUI and cracking open the source code.However, my biggest issue isn't cost, it's support, documentation, and communications. Can't tell you how many hours we've burned trying to search the community for solutions, or digging through incomplete or deeply outdated documentation (this has improved some over the years.) But the most frustrating thing is not being able to get answers on things like web publishing and other features.
We ended up writing our own web plug-in after trying to get answers online and through direct inquiries to GG and IA about future development or licensing plans. Months into development, web publishing is announced and our money and time has been wasted. We are also now on hold for product release depending on the release date of the web publishing tech. That kind of stuff costs me much more than simply paying a license fee, because of the opportunity cost of the content we could have created instead of tackling core tech.
Just another perspective to consider. Overall we love GG and Torque and are excited to see what the future brings. Good job on communicating at this pivotal time... thanks!
#43
I wanna just to patrocinate more clearly the cause of hobbyist (of course! I'm me too a hobbyist! :-D )...
I really really think the best thing is to have an educational and/or hobbyist license that remains far under the $1000 (the terms of this license to be evaluated but the idea you can't ship/sells any game seems reasonable) so GG can get the proper revenue from serious-indie and commercial licenses and repositionate the enine in the market while at the same time mantein as possible the large user-base and get revenue also from them... Otherwise I think not only the community will suffer but also GG risk that the higher revenue coming from the encreased license price will be partially vanificated by the large amount of defeat in sells among the hobbyist user base...
For sure is not so easy to find the point of equilibre between what you will left and what you will get...
01/09/2009 (1:00 pm)
Those are my second 2 cents (also if I have to save money for T3D LOL!)...I wanna just to patrocinate more clearly the cause of hobbyist (of course! I'm me too a hobbyist! :-D )...
I really really think the best thing is to have an educational and/or hobbyist license that remains far under the $1000 (the terms of this license to be evaluated but the idea you can't ship/sells any game seems reasonable) so GG can get the proper revenue from serious-indie and commercial licenses and repositionate the enine in the market while at the same time mantein as possible the large user-base and get revenue also from them... Otherwise I think not only the community will suffer but also GG risk that the higher revenue coming from the encreased license price will be partially vanificated by the large amount of defeat in sells among the hobbyist user base...
For sure is not so easy to find the point of equilibre between what you will left and what you will get...
#44
I would also like to at this point put my vote in for NOT having a per title fee. Never did like that concept.
Oh and on the TGE side I think it should either be free or gone with no more work done to it improve it. Just my opinion though.
01/09/2009 (1:01 pm)
Why not have a free or low cost edition for non commercial use. As I mentioned before this is what Maya does with their PLE. This would still put it in the hands of the indie/hobby dev. with little or no investment at first. If you want to sell your game if you ever finish it and your that confident in that your game will be successful then buy/upgrade the license. This would also stop people from looking to cheaper means and hobbyists could still make money by making content for the engine without having to buy the commercial license. Im not up on current engines, but isnt this what unreal engine does/did? Not sure on that.I would also like to at this point put my vote in for NOT having a per title fee. Never did like that concept.
Oh and on the TGE side I think it should either be free or gone with no more work done to it improve it. Just my opinion though.
#45
Also in your blog I was a little put off by the line "Are you one of these developers?" in ref to Andy's quote about dreamers and developers with potential. GarageGames and the tools they provide enable dreamers who eventually become developers with potential please don't forget that as you transition into this new company.
01/09/2009 (1:09 pm)
I am going to echo the same earlier comments. You wont be able to pull off a successful price increase without greatly increasing the (technical/Customer)support. My fear would be that all of your old customers would now move on to other engines or just stay with what they has as the support model (the community) would still be in place for them.Also in your blog I was a little put off by the line "Are you one of these developers?" in ref to Andy's quote about dreamers and developers with potential. GarageGames and the tools they provide enable dreamers who eventually become developers with potential please don't forget that as you transition into this new company.
#46
Keep TGEA 1.8 maintained for a few years after T3D is released and keep it available at the sub $400 range. As it becomes outdated, slowly reduce the price or throw in extra goodies such as content packs or other starter kits. This should keep most hobbyists happy and keeps you with a mid-price-range product.
After Torque 3D is out, open source or otherwise give TGE away for free... possibly free for non-commercial use or open source it using GPL. This will keep the hobbyists happy too. Restrict the license so it doesn't interfere with your other products.
Sell Torque 3D for whatever price you think the market will support a price tag not much higher than $2500 - $10,000 depending on the features you plan to add. The current incarnation of TGEA 1.8 source license could probably have netted you the same amount of profits at twice its current price but you would have to do some market research to find the best price point taking the current economy into consideration.
Charge 10% - 25% a year for ongoing maintenance and support for all products that you are actively maintaining. If you don't make any enhancements to a product then throw in some more content packs or something to make it worthwhile. "Support" should include a limited number of support tickets and full access to upgrades.
01/09/2009 (1:11 pm)
Not that you necessarily want to hear it but here's my 2 cents.Keep TGEA 1.8 maintained for a few years after T3D is released and keep it available at the sub $400 range. As it becomes outdated, slowly reduce the price or throw in extra goodies such as content packs or other starter kits. This should keep most hobbyists happy and keeps you with a mid-price-range product.
After Torque 3D is out, open source or otherwise give TGE away for free... possibly free for non-commercial use or open source it using GPL. This will keep the hobbyists happy too. Restrict the license so it doesn't interfere with your other products.
Sell Torque 3D for whatever price you think the market will support a price tag not much higher than $2500 - $10,000 depending on the features you plan to add. The current incarnation of TGEA 1.8 source license could probably have netted you the same amount of profits at twice its current price but you would have to do some market research to find the best price point taking the current economy into consideration.
Charge 10% - 25% a year for ongoing maintenance and support for all products that you are actively maintaining. If you don't make any enhancements to a product then throw in some more content packs or something to make it worthwhile. "Support" should include a limited number of support tickets and full access to upgrades.
#47
More features, better tech, better documentation, better support, and better tools would all be worth a price increase, and yet for all of the talk of transparent development and a better website that's been "coming soon" for over a year now we still don't actually know what new features, tech, tools, etc that T3D will bring to the table. It will have to be worth it though and so far we've not seen anything to validate that. There's been talk...but GG has talked a lot over the years. Some of that talk has been for good and yet some got glossed over or hidden away, and there have been a lot of broken promises and vague platitudes of "coming soon" or "it's not an important concern right now"
Finding balance between the "elite" commercial indie, the "garage" indie, and the hobbyist will be almost impossible to find and I foresee a lot of possible disillusionment coming in the future. From my viewpoint I've seen GarageGames transitioning into catering more and more for the elite & commercial indies than for those who have a dream, but then that is where the money is at and I can't fault that. You make it sound like those companies mentioned above are more valuable than the community, but the community itself (and let's face it: but without that community GarageGames wouldn't be what it is today) has always thrived upon and been driven by the bottom tiers of those levels of what is "indie". Shifting focus towards the top tier will only decrease the incentive for those that take the time to help others to remain part of the active community. The community in large has provided more support and documentation than GarageGames ever has. The bug fixes, resources, and improvements provided by the community that have been rolled into the engine(s) over the years more than validates that last statement.
Support is a touchy and almost impossible situation that no one wants to deal with. Maybe GarageGames could withhold in-house support to all but those with a commercial license? Or possibly a support costs extra license? But any kind of "contact us for individual support pricing" would be a bad idea I believe.
I consider myself a basement indie - I've actually made money from my "hobby". Torque's licensing was the incentive that drew me in, I would hate to see that change. It's the freedom of the license, especially considering that it's not just a"one game" license or even requires royalties, that means the most to me. Taking any kind of tiered approach to licensing making more of a distinction between the different levels of what is "indie" however will only cause resource providers to give less and drive others to only releasing content or code packs. We've already seen controversy caused by the commercial use of free resources and it could only get worse. The community itself may become warring groups of different license holders - in fact we kind of already see this now in some attitudes and comments in the forums.
Whatever the future of Torque in pricing, licensing, support, documentation, etc; I hope to see an advancement and improvement in everything already mentioned. Pricing may not drive me away if it's done to cover development costs and for providing better tools. Actual acceptable changes in pricing and licensing ultimately depends on the actual increase in quality of tools and artflow along with the engine technology. And I've never needed documentation. But keep the technology bar high, keep it affordable and useful for the basement programmer with a dream, and the future for GarageGames and the community that enables it will only thrive. Just remember that the little guys: the basement coders and the so-called hobbyist, are no less valuable than anyone from Sickhead, Fro Games, Stickhead, etc.
Edit: felt like bolding that last sentence.
01/09/2009 (1:13 pm)
Such a nice long blog that stimulates such conversation and thought -- let me contribute a few words:More features, better tech, better documentation, better support, and better tools would all be worth a price increase, and yet for all of the talk of transparent development and a better website that's been "coming soon" for over a year now we still don't actually know what new features, tech, tools, etc that T3D will bring to the table. It will have to be worth it though and so far we've not seen anything to validate that. There's been talk...but GG has talked a lot over the years. Some of that talk has been for good and yet some got glossed over or hidden away, and there have been a lot of broken promises and vague platitudes of "coming soon" or "it's not an important concern right now"
Finding balance between the "elite" commercial indie, the "garage" indie, and the hobbyist will be almost impossible to find and I foresee a lot of possible disillusionment coming in the future. From my viewpoint I've seen GarageGames transitioning into catering more and more for the elite & commercial indies than for those who have a dream, but then that is where the money is at and I can't fault that. You make it sound like those companies mentioned above are more valuable than the community, but the community itself (and let's face it: but without that community GarageGames wouldn't be what it is today) has always thrived upon and been driven by the bottom tiers of those levels of what is "indie". Shifting focus towards the top tier will only decrease the incentive for those that take the time to help others to remain part of the active community. The community in large has provided more support and documentation than GarageGames ever has. The bug fixes, resources, and improvements provided by the community that have been rolled into the engine(s) over the years more than validates that last statement.
Support is a touchy and almost impossible situation that no one wants to deal with. Maybe GarageGames could withhold in-house support to all but those with a commercial license? Or possibly a support costs extra license? But any kind of "contact us for individual support pricing" would be a bad idea I believe.
I consider myself a basement indie - I've actually made money from my "hobby". Torque's licensing was the incentive that drew me in, I would hate to see that change. It's the freedom of the license, especially considering that it's not just a"one game" license or even requires royalties, that means the most to me. Taking any kind of tiered approach to licensing making more of a distinction between the different levels of what is "indie" however will only cause resource providers to give less and drive others to only releasing content or code packs. We've already seen controversy caused by the commercial use of free resources and it could only get worse. The community itself may become warring groups of different license holders - in fact we kind of already see this now in some attitudes and comments in the forums.
Whatever the future of Torque in pricing, licensing, support, documentation, etc; I hope to see an advancement and improvement in everything already mentioned. Pricing may not drive me away if it's done to cover development costs and for providing better tools. Actual acceptable changes in pricing and licensing ultimately depends on the actual increase in quality of tools and artflow along with the engine technology. And I've never needed documentation. But keep the technology bar high, keep it affordable and useful for the basement programmer with a dream, and the future for GarageGames and the community that enables it will only thrive. Just remember that the little guys: the basement coders and the so-called hobbyist, are no less valuable than anyone from Sickhead, Fro Games, Stickhead, etc.
Edit: felt like bolding that last sentence.
#48
Higher price points could be set for companies making more than X per year as the current indie/commercial license split covers. Or perhaps wanting to use the engine for non game related products.
However, it does make me wonder how many hobbiests will be lost, or rather not gained with such a price point.
Logan's suggestion of different tiers based on engine features may be one way to keep the engine within reach of hobbiests. An alternative could be to place more restrictive terms on a hobbiest license. For example, it could be non-commercial, which includes no profit or donations. If you want to profit from your hobby, buy the indie license. Or some other restriction.
If your price point was $400-500 for the full T3D, then that might be a middle ground where it's still reasonable for most hobbiests to consider. But as others have mentioned, if paying more such as $1,000 rather than $500 meant a lot more development would be possible on T3D, then I'd rather pay $1,000 and have hobbiests catered for via an alternative means such as license restrictions. In the same way indies are catered for under the existing TGE/TGEA via income license restrictions compared to larger companies.
01/09/2009 (1:18 pm)
To take the unity price point you mentioned of $1,000 as an example. I'd be willing to pay that (assuming T3D has a reasonable feature set/stability) but only if it was under similar license terms as TGE/TGEA. No royalties, Full source code and unlimited usage. Higher price points could be set for companies making more than X per year as the current indie/commercial license split covers. Or perhaps wanting to use the engine for non game related products.
However, it does make me wonder how many hobbiests will be lost, or rather not gained with such a price point.
Logan's suggestion of different tiers based on engine features may be one way to keep the engine within reach of hobbiests. An alternative could be to place more restrictive terms on a hobbiest license. For example, it could be non-commercial, which includes no profit or donations. If you want to profit from your hobby, buy the indie license. Or some other restriction.
If your price point was $400-500 for the full T3D, then that might be a middle ground where it's still reasonable for most hobbiests to consider. But as others have mentioned, if paying more such as $1,000 rather than $500 meant a lot more development would be possible on T3D, then I'd rather pay $1,000 and have hobbiests catered for via an alternative means such as license restrictions. In the same way indies are catered for under the existing TGE/TGEA via income license restrictions compared to larger companies.
#49
01/09/2009 (1:23 pm)
Im not sure I agree with a tier based on engine features. Im not sure, but wouldnt that mean they have to maintain multiples of the same engine?
#50
EDIT: Ok I found it outlined but very vague
01/09/2009 (1:26 pm)
Also do we even know what T3D is going to be feature wise? I mean I know GG does, but has it been outlined to us? If so please point me :)EDIT: Ok I found it outlined but very vague
#51
Indie - or Professional!
01/09/2009 (1:27 pm)
Tier means 1 engine, different pricing arrangement based on usage of the engine.Indie - or Professional!
#52
01/09/2009 (1:29 pm)
Thanks Surge It sounded like same engine minus features.
#53
01/09/2009 (1:31 pm)
For anyone unclear about what is coming with Torque 3D, I would recommend looking back through Brett's recent blogs. Especially the last one on web publishing.
#54
blog.epicedits.com/2008/07/31/news-flash-photoshop-is-overpriced-which-could-be-...
Basically, this is just one of many sites that show that Adobe could make so much more money if there were willing to lower the price. This is basically what I feel will happen with T3D. You could make so much more not charging an arm and leg for it.
Also: current economic climate:
justinflood.com/2008/12/adobe-fires-600-people-stop-paying-700-for-photoshop-duh...
Just saying... just because you charge more for a piece of software doesn't mean you'll make more money from it. That's why I think a pricing structure such as Non-profit: $300-$500 per seat, Some-profit: $1000 per seat, and Lotta-profit: $5,000-$10,000 per seat makes sense.
You can't neglect the "invisible profits" of having more people using your engine. From word-of-mouth (because so many people use it) to people coming together to help solve numerous bugs you'd have to solve yourself otherwise (or put the burden of solving those issues on your serious developers alone), there's certainly value in encouraging more people to buy licenses to your engine.
I'm sure you guys are thinking about these various aspects, but just remember... if you release it at $1000 and it sells very poorly, and you realize that it would have made you so much more money to release it at $500, lowing the price so dramatically could alienate your user base as well.
01/09/2009 (1:32 pm)
Another thing to mention, since you mentioned Adobe:blog.epicedits.com/2008/07/31/news-flash-photoshop-is-overpriced-which-could-be-...
Basically, this is just one of many sites that show that Adobe could make so much more money if there were willing to lower the price. This is basically what I feel will happen with T3D. You could make so much more not charging an arm and leg for it.
Also: current economic climate:
justinflood.com/2008/12/adobe-fires-600-people-stop-paying-700-for-photoshop-duh...
Just saying... just because you charge more for a piece of software doesn't mean you'll make more money from it. That's why I think a pricing structure such as Non-profit: $300-$500 per seat, Some-profit: $1000 per seat, and Lotta-profit: $5,000-$10,000 per seat makes sense.
You can't neglect the "invisible profits" of having more people using your engine. From word-of-mouth (because so many people use it) to people coming together to help solve numerous bugs you'd have to solve yourself otherwise (or put the burden of solving those issues on your serious developers alone), there's certainly value in encouraging more people to buy licenses to your engine.
I'm sure you guys are thinking about these various aspects, but just remember... if you release it at $1000 and it sells very poorly, and you realize that it would have made you so much more money to release it at $500, lowing the price so dramatically could alienate your user base as well.
#55
Let's start with this statement:
Unity got that user base due to the lack of engines and tools made for the mac.
I'm a hobbiest. As a hobbiest, I cannot afford a big price tag. At $500.00 for t3d, I would have to stick with 1.8 and attempt to fix some of it's issues.
I can see raising the price to $350.00 for indies. I'm praying you don't raise it above that. I'm also hoping that t3d isn't just a bug fix of 1.8 . A raise in price wouldn't be warrented if that were the case.
All I can say is this:
When IAC bought out GG, I knew, without a doubt in my mind, it meant the price would go up. I also knew, without a doubt, the engine would get better as well.
The price has gone up. The engine has gotten slightly better. Not better enough to warrent a new name or pricetag tho. (imho) I hope you prove me wrong. I really do, as IAC scares me. Without torque, my hobby would have to change and I've come to like the hobby I have.
01/09/2009 (1:40 pm)
Here we go again...Didn't we just go thru this same thing not too long ago with the iTorque? Sounds like the exact same speach all over again, only this time, for a real engine. (no slight meant) (referring to Computer vs. phone engine) Let's start with this statement:
Quote:I've also noticed that Unity, which appears to be competing more with Flash than game engines, is priced many multiples higher than Torque and yet, it's attracted a license base of primarily hobbyists and amateur developers.
Unity got that user base due to the lack of engines and tools made for the mac.
I'm a hobbiest. As a hobbiest, I cannot afford a big price tag. At $500.00 for t3d, I would have to stick with 1.8 and attempt to fix some of it's issues.
I can see raising the price to $350.00 for indies. I'm praying you don't raise it above that. I'm also hoping that t3d isn't just a bug fix of 1.8 . A raise in price wouldn't be warrented if that were the case.
All I can say is this:
When IAC bought out GG, I knew, without a doubt in my mind, it meant the price would go up. I also knew, without a doubt, the engine would get better as well.
The price has gone up. The engine has gotten slightly better. Not better enough to warrent a new name or pricetag tho. (imho) I hope you prove me wrong. I really do, as IAC scares me. Without torque, my hobby would have to change and I've come to like the hobby I have.
#56
the following is just a quick idea i had seconds after reading this so it never got the sleep-one-night-over-it treatment
Many 3d packages have a cheap "learners edition" with a watermark. So why not make a (cheap) noncommercial version (with a watermark) for those who want to learn the engine tech and for those who really want to make a commercially grade product you ask for the price you will come up with. This way you wont lock out the large base of people who buy your tech and never use it.
This is really just like the differenciation between Indie and Commercial on a slightly different level.
And to get ahead of those saying "if you have the sourcecode you could remove the watermark":
Well you could make a small essential part of the engine precompiled into a library for the noncommercial one. Like having a precompiled D3D9 renderer for example.
01/09/2009 (1:47 pm)
Many 3d packages have a cheap "learners edition" with a watermark. So why not make a (cheap) noncommercial version (with a watermark) for those who want to learn the engine tech and for those who really want to make a commercially grade product you ask for the price you will come up with. This way you wont lock out the large base of people who buy your tech and never use it.
This is really just like the differenciation between Indie and Commercial on a slightly different level.
And to get ahead of those saying "if you have the sourcecode you could remove the watermark":
Well you could make a small essential part of the engine precompiled into a library for the noncommercial one. Like having a precompiled D3D9 renderer for example.
#57
With 1.5 million a year you can finance some serious engine development. But, they don't care about the little guys.
That was the whole premise behind GG. Its not just about profit its about "changing the way games are made and played." Its about bringing great technology to the little guys with big dreams. Its about new innovation and ideas. Its about fixing a broken retail process.
Tell you what guys, if the AAA unreal guys decide to offer an indie license at $500... then what does GG do then? What is the GG market?
I say the idea is simple keep below a certain price in the indie and commercial game licenses. Where do your game sales come from? How many commercial licenses do you sell a month? How many indie licenses?
A price is not determined by how much something is worth. Its set by what the market will bear. Just remember if you do your analysis with just market economics alone, Brett, you've lost sight of the real vision behind Garage Games. You can't put a price on revolutionary new ideas. Or I guess you can, but you kill the heart and soul of the revolution.
01/09/2009 (1:54 pm)
Well, lets say GG sells 200 licenses a month at $300 thats $60,000 a month. No bad but its only $720,000 dollars a year. Now if you look at the big boys at $500,000 a license, they only have to sell 3 licenses to make twice what GG does.With 1.5 million a year you can finance some serious engine development. But, they don't care about the little guys.
That was the whole premise behind GG. Its not just about profit its about "changing the way games are made and played." Its about bringing great technology to the little guys with big dreams. Its about new innovation and ideas. Its about fixing a broken retail process.
Tell you what guys, if the AAA unreal guys decide to offer an indie license at $500... then what does GG do then? What is the GG market?
I say the idea is simple keep below a certain price in the indie and commercial game licenses. Where do your game sales come from? How many commercial licenses do you sell a month? How many indie licenses?
A price is not determined by how much something is worth. Its set by what the market will bear. Just remember if you do your analysis with just market economics alone, Brett, you've lost sight of the real vision behind Garage Games. You can't put a price on revolutionary new ideas. Or I guess you can, but you kill the heart and soul of the revolution.
#58
01/09/2009 (1:55 pm)
I don't like this idea Florian... Again I really think a hobbyist/educational/learning edition, call it as you prefer, would be the path to follow to mantein the price reasonable for hobbyist ...(with more or less the only limit you can't sell anything made with it)...
#59
Don't you ever get tired of saying this, all over? GarageGames is a company, or an entity of another compay (Instant Action) - whatever. But in the end, it has to turn a profit or it won't function. I hate how you (and a few others) always make it sound like it's charity, when it's not.
01/09/2009 (2:02 pm)
Quote:
you've lost sight of the real vision behind Garage Games... bla bla bla
Don't you ever get tired of saying this, all over? GarageGames is a company, or an entity of another compay (Instant Action) - whatever. But in the end, it has to turn a profit or it won't function. I hate how you (and a few others) always make it sound like it's charity, when it's not.
#60
01/09/2009 (2:07 pm)
Long Live The Indy Revolution! 
Torque Owner Stefan Lundmark
I wouldn't have either, but that's not important. Things have changed since then, and TGE wasn't what TGEA is today. TGE was really really broken back then, in some aspects. No sound *at all* to mention one thing.