When game producers go too far...
by Gary Simpson · in General Discussion · 03/06/2003 (6:43 am) · 48 replies
Let me give you a little background first:
End of 2002 summer I had been working on an indie game using the Torque engine. The project manager/producer was and has been explicit that he will not be using NDAs or work agreements since things are "going too smoothly for paperwork". It's one of the those, we-all-work-now-and-get-equal-shares-later projects. You're not going to make money but you'll get experience.
Fastforward to now, I've recently been employed by an ACTUAL game company. They have been nice enough to me to allow me to work on other games-in-development as long as there are the appropriate NDAs signed. So I go back and talk to the previously-mentioned project manager and ask for legal agreements to be made so that everyone is protected and life can go on.
But he can't. It appears that the indie game company doesn't have any standing since it's not even legalized as such. It's just a made-up company to look professional. So after receiving some flak from the project manager, I tell him that I have to withdraw from my appointed position in the fictious company. I'm not going to jeopardize my new job over it. In the severance email, I also tell him that I would appreciate him removing all image/content development I had done up to that point. I'm not a mean guy, but I do know copyright laws.
Yeah, he doesn't like that. In fact, he refuses and sends me a scathing email which is just a blur of curses and broken english. He goes on to say that, "it's company property" and that all of it is "copyrighted". Funny, this coming from a guy that won't even sign a work agreement. I probably would have written it off and just forgotten about it till something was brought to my attention - the website*. It appears that my developments are all over it (hell, even the company logo).
So I send another request for removal of content. Nothing. I post-up in the site's forums. Deleted. So what do I do? I'm telling people...
This is a word of advice to other indie developers. Make the distinction early on if the game you are making is for fun or for profit. If it is for profit, be professional and have work agreements. This protects EVERYONE.
gs
End of 2002 summer I had been working on an indie game using the Torque engine. The project manager/producer was and has been explicit that he will not be using NDAs or work agreements since things are "going too smoothly for paperwork". It's one of the those, we-all-work-now-and-get-equal-shares-later projects. You're not going to make money but you'll get experience.
Fastforward to now, I've recently been employed by an ACTUAL game company. They have been nice enough to me to allow me to work on other games-in-development as long as there are the appropriate NDAs signed. So I go back and talk to the previously-mentioned project manager and ask for legal agreements to be made so that everyone is protected and life can go on.
But he can't. It appears that the indie game company doesn't have any standing since it's not even legalized as such. It's just a made-up company to look professional. So after receiving some flak from the project manager, I tell him that I have to withdraw from my appointed position in the fictious company. I'm not going to jeopardize my new job over it. In the severance email, I also tell him that I would appreciate him removing all image/content development I had done up to that point. I'm not a mean guy, but I do know copyright laws.
Yeah, he doesn't like that. In fact, he refuses and sends me a scathing email which is just a blur of curses and broken english. He goes on to say that, "it's company property" and that all of it is "copyrighted". Funny, this coming from a guy that won't even sign a work agreement. I probably would have written it off and just forgotten about it till something was brought to my attention - the website*. It appears that my developments are all over it (hell, even the company logo).
So I send another request for removal of content. Nothing. I post-up in the site's forums. Deleted. So what do I do? I'm telling people...
This is a word of advice to other indie developers. Make the distinction early on if the game you are making is for fun or for profit. If it is for profit, be professional and have work agreements. This protects EVERYONE.
gs
About the author
#2
03/06/2003 (7:22 am)
anyone have some popcorn?
#3
03/06/2003 (7:25 am)
And what about their IP that you maintain to claim as yours on yoru website? will you remove that content as well? or is this a do as I say not as I do type of deal????????
#4
How does one legaly copyright material? I thought it was done in one of two ways
1) something about going to a lawyer and having it done that way
2) sending all docuemtns/images etc to yourself via snail mail and never opening the envelope.
is the above correct? if so, have you done either? if not how can you prove copyright on your IP?
-Ron
03/06/2003 (7:33 am)
quick question, not intended directly at you GS.How does one legaly copyright material? I thought it was done in one of two ways
1) something about going to a lawyer and having it done that way
2) sending all docuemtns/images etc to yourself via snail mail and never opening the envelope.
is the above correct? if so, have you done either? if not how can you prove copyright on your IP?
-Ron
#5
Here's a good brief introduction to copyright:
www.templetons.com/brad/copyright.html
03/06/2003 (7:39 am)
You automatically get copyright on whatever you've created. You don't have to file a copyright on it.Here's a good brief introduction to copyright:
www.templetons.com/brad/copyright.html
#6
The old trick of mailing yourself the information doesn't hold up in court anymore (or so I've heard), so I'm not sure how one goes about it. Best bet would be to get a legal opinion and get it all sorted out.
My opinion on this mess: there should have been agreements in place even if it was just an indie team. If the end goal is to sell a game, the team needs to treat the project as a business and set it up that way from the first.
Airing the laundry on this forum won't do anything but just make people upset. If you're really worried that your copywritten material has been used without your consent, consult a lawyer now. If you wait until the game is released, then the team can argue that you knew about it much earlier and therefore gave silent consent for them to continue using it (since you didn't take action to stop it sooner).
Reading that thread in the other forum, it looks like they were replacing your material anyway, so I don't think they'll have a problem removing it.
03/06/2003 (7:43 am)
If I understand things right, as soon as you create something, you own the copyright to it. Now, proving that copyright is the problem. The old trick of mailing yourself the information doesn't hold up in court anymore (or so I've heard), so I'm not sure how one goes about it. Best bet would be to get a legal opinion and get it all sorted out.
My opinion on this mess: there should have been agreements in place even if it was just an indie team. If the end goal is to sell a game, the team needs to treat the project as a business and set it up that way from the first.
Airing the laundry on this forum won't do anything but just make people upset. If you're really worried that your copywritten material has been used without your consent, consult a lawyer now. If you wait until the game is released, then the team can argue that you knew about it much earlier and therefore gave silent consent for them to continue using it (since you didn't take action to stop it sooner).
Reading that thread in the other forum, it looks like they were replacing your material anyway, so I don't think they'll have a problem removing it.
#7
so, if one wanted to push the limit they could say screw you and the copyright and force them to register or else have no case in a court of law.
-Ron
03/06/2003 (7:45 am)
correct, butQuote:
No registration is necessary, though it's needed later to sue
so, if one wanted to push the limit they could say screw you and the copyright and force them to register or else have no case in a court of law.
-Ron
#8
I don't believe I have any of the mentioned IP on my public website. Also, the company cannot maintain ANY IP since it is not a legal company. All rights to IP are from their original owners.
Copyrights are inherant in creation. When you make something, you automatically gain creator rights to it. Even in digital form, you are the owner of those rights.
Work agreements help define those rights, such as what rights are to be maintained, what rights are reserved by which parties, as well as distribution rights. These agreements allow you to "sell" or "lease" these creator-gained rights to IP to outside parties.
03/06/2003 (7:50 am)
Quote:And what about their IP that you maintain to claim as yours on yoru website? will you remove that content as well? or is this a do as I say not as I do type of deal????????
I don't believe I have any of the mentioned IP on my public website. Also, the company cannot maintain ANY IP since it is not a legal company. All rights to IP are from their original owners.
Quote:How does one legaly copyright material? I thought it was done in one of two ways...
Copyrights are inherant in creation. When you make something, you automatically gain creator rights to it. Even in digital form, you are the owner of those rights.
Work agreements help define those rights, such as what rights are to be maintained, what rights are reserved by which parties, as well as distribution rights. These agreements allow you to "sell" or "lease" these creator-gained rights to IP to outside parties.
#9
03/06/2003 (7:50 am)
*takes a seat next to J.Donovan and hands him a tub of popcorn* "Okay... what'd I miss?" lol
#10
Wether you've linked the stuff publically or not is immaterial - the content authors are just asking for the same consideration you've asked them for.
I'm not sure why we're discussing this on the GG forums, frankly, since everything _looked_ like it was getting worked out peacably.
Kirby, Donovan: Nice contributions, guys. How do I say this and not flame... try to be a little more constructive, please?
03/06/2003 (8:00 am)
Gary, your stuff's being removed. This takes a little bit of time, so try to have a little bit of patience. You've also been asked delete the stuff on your webserver that's derived from other team member's work (As requested by the original author.) Wether you've linked the stuff publically or not is immaterial - the content authors are just asking for the same consideration you've asked them for.
I'm not sure why we're discussing this on the GG forums, frankly, since everything _looked_ like it was getting worked out peacably.
Kirby, Donovan: Nice contributions, guys. How do I say this and not flame... try to be a little more constructive, please?
#11
Sorry about that. I ment the other developers/artists for the company you speak of.
anyways, on to more pressing issues :)
I will take a seat next to JD and enjoy the fireworks as well
-Ron
03/06/2003 (8:01 am)
GS,Sorry about that. I ment the other developers/artists for the company you speak of.
anyways, on to more pressing issues :)
I will take a seat next to JD and enjoy the fireworks as well
-Ron
#12
Everything on my end is removed.
This posting was never intended to be a vendetta but more of a horror story. I specifically left out names as such.
The fact of the matter was, things were not how they looked. And that's what I wanted to share with other indie developers. Everyone needs to see the pitfalls so that they can avoid them. Hell, if people did more tutorials on "Building Game Business Ethics" rather than "Quake Level Design", maybe more indie companies could come into their own.
03/06/2003 (8:24 am)
Quote:I'm not sure why we're discussing this on the GG forums, frankly, since everything _looked_ like it was getting worked out peacably.
Everything on my end is removed.
This posting was never intended to be a vendetta but more of a horror story. I specifically left out names as such.
The fact of the matter was, things were not how they looked. And that's what I wanted to share with other indie developers. Everyone needs to see the pitfalls so that they can avoid them. Hell, if people did more tutorials on "Building Game Business Ethics" rather than "Quake Level Design", maybe more indie companies could come into their own.
#13
Names were left out of your post, but you put a link to their forums... kinda defeated the purpose of leaving out names :\
It's nice that you posted this to share the experience with others as something to look out for, but maybe that link shouldn't have been there.
03/06/2003 (8:40 am)
Quote:This posting was never intended to be a vendetta but more of a horror story. I specifically left out names as such.
Names were left out of your post, but you put a link to their forums... kinda defeated the purpose of leaving out names :\
It's nice that you posted this to share the experience with others as something to look out for, but maybe that link shouldn't have been there.
#14
03/06/2003 (8:50 am)
Gary, first off, its your work, and you should have the final say over what happens to it (unless of course ward pays you up front for it) but dude, whats your problem? You were only even on the team for like a couple weeks or so, how much content could you have produced? Now I'm sorry if I dont really remember which 2d artist you are (we go through one a month) are you the one who did the new spy skin or are you the guy who just quit like 2 weeks ago? My question here is whats the harm in Ward using your stuff? I mean its not like your company (unless I misunderstand what you wrote above) said you cant have work you did before you were hired in a game, and its not like you can use the spy skin in one of your other projects, so why not just let ward have it? Who cares if you dont get paid, you wont get paid either way. Another thing I noticed, you come off kinda cocky in your post, and when I first read through it (before even knowing you were talking about acidstorm or who you were) I got the impression that you had done a majority of the art work for this game... well dude, I've been working on colonies for about 6 or 7 months, and the other guys have been going at it for well over a year, trust me man, your 2 or 3 weeks of 2d art is really just a drop in the bucket, I'm sorry if ward didnt imediately delete all the textures you made but come on, I'm sure they will be gone by next month when we get another disposable 2d artist to redo all that (serioulsy, you guys are like styrafoam cups). Finnaly, you seem to be acting rather petty about all this, first off, you seem to be very concerned with getting paid, and when your dealing with a company that doesnt really exist consisting of a leader in another country, working on an indie game, do you really expect to get rich? If you did then your a fool, of course money would be nice but when I got in on colonies I did it for the experience, thats just the way indie games are. Second, whats your big problem with Ward? Considering we have a 2d artist quit on us like every month (you could set your watch to it), I really dont think Ward would get to upset over it, its certaintly nothing he's not used to. I think theres something you arnt telling us here, I really dont think Ward would bother getting upset over another 2d artist quiting. Oh well, maybe I'm wrong about all this, just dont see why your being so anal about your work, it just seems like theres some unexplained malice on your part or something.
#15
Everything is being removed from everyone's computers and we are going our seperate ways. We should all be happy that we are all pissed. If you don't think this word of advice is valid, just look at how this post exploded.
@Eric - When you get burned in the past, you get cautious in the future. Cautious = Anal.
03/06/2003 (9:01 am)
Ugh.Everything is being removed from everyone's computers and we are going our seperate ways. We should all be happy that we are all pissed. If you don't think this word of advice is valid, just look at how this post exploded.
@Eric - When you get burned in the past, you get cautious in the future. Cautious = Anal.
#16
TAKE THIS PRIVATE! This childish finger pointing in public does nothing but back both parties look like asses.
As soon as I read the first post that this was going to be a fiasco hence the popcorn comment, I like popcorn with my melodrama.
03/06/2003 (9:26 am)
Oh Mark hows this for constructive?TAKE THIS PRIVATE! This childish finger pointing in public does nothing but back both parties look like asses.
As soon as I read the first post that this was going to be a fiasco hence the popcorn comment, I like popcorn with my melodrama.
#17
You can enter into a contract over a DOLLER. If 1$ were paid for every deposit of material (ART or Code) into the main project , and the Contract specified "once paid IP ownership is transfered" then nobody in the above situation would have grounds to stand on.
AS and artist (GARY) you should make this standard practice when contracting specified work. Whether indie or pro, no matter if someone can get somthing for free and control it they are going to use it. Happens everydays.
Developers are better protected by paying money ($1) for a negotiated amount of work and laying claim to all IP after payment has been issued. This prevents situations like the above from happenning. Had the developers in this situation paid $1 for Gary's deposit of work they wouldn't have to remove it from there project base and Gary wouldn't have a leg to stand on. But he would have known this going into the situation.
@ Gary I am not sure what your situation is but unless your making a boat load of money with the company you just hired on to I can't really see why you sold your soul and restircted yourself to just working on there stuff. And that shouldn't really count on anything you worked on before you hired on to that company. So just stop working on the project.
I am sure I don't understand everything though. But...
Matt
03/06/2003 (9:35 am)
All this can be avoided by simply incorperating your self on either end and making sure that there are Money's paid for all work. Contracts, letters of intent, reciepts and Grant Licenses should be standard practice for both the Developer and Artists/Programmers. You can enter into a contract over a DOLLER. If 1$ were paid for every deposit of material (ART or Code) into the main project , and the Contract specified "once paid IP ownership is transfered" then nobody in the above situation would have grounds to stand on.
AS and artist (GARY) you should make this standard practice when contracting specified work. Whether indie or pro, no matter if someone can get somthing for free and control it they are going to use it. Happens everydays.
Developers are better protected by paying money ($1) for a negotiated amount of work and laying claim to all IP after payment has been issued. This prevents situations like the above from happenning. Had the developers in this situation paid $1 for Gary's deposit of work they wouldn't have to remove it from there project base and Gary wouldn't have a leg to stand on. But he would have known this going into the situation.
@ Gary I am not sure what your situation is but unless your making a boat load of money with the company you just hired on to I can't really see why you sold your soul and restircted yourself to just working on there stuff. And that shouldn't really count on anything you worked on before you hired on to that company. So just stop working on the project.
I am sure I don't understand everything though. But...
Matt
#18
Be sure you know who owns what.
You should have NDA's and employment agreements making IP ownership clear. If someone creates something for you, you should own it unless otherwise stipulated. At the very least you should own a license to use it.
RW is a good example, I think, of how to do this sort of thing.
This just serves as a wakeup call to everyone to look over their paperwork and dot all the i's.
03/06/2003 (10:30 am)
Important note to indies:Be sure you know who owns what.
You should have NDA's and employment agreements making IP ownership clear. If someone creates something for you, you should own it unless otherwise stipulated. At the very least you should own a license to use it.
RW is a good example, I think, of how to do this sort of thing.
This just serves as a wakeup call to everyone to look over their paperwork and dot all the i's.
#19
I think I'm seeing some problems on both sides of this... uh... bad situation.
Obviously Gary thinks something that was said by the project manager was insulting and wrong in the email(s) he sent. Now, that should have been sorted out over email. However on the project manager's side this is a misunderstanding in that, IMO, Gary is only posting here to help other see that they need to have a firm understanding of the legal side of game dev; specifically copyrights and IP.
Anyhow, it seems to be worked out now since Gary's work is being removed from the project and Gary is removing any of the team's work from his site (if there was any to begin with.)
Oh and by the by, with the internet never take something personally. I learned that the hard way and i'm sure you see this now.
The problem with sorting things out over email or in a forum is that it's all text; there's no body language, no voice inflections and the like. Misunderstanding runs rampant on the internet which is why so many parents are afraid to let their kids roam freely in chat rooms, forums and such.
anyway... I have to get going... passport renewal forms need to be picked up.
~ian wheat
just my $0.02
03/06/2003 (10:34 am)
Wow, quite a bit can be posted in just a couple of hours.I think I'm seeing some problems on both sides of this... uh... bad situation.
Obviously Gary thinks something that was said by the project manager was insulting and wrong in the email(s) he sent. Now, that should have been sorted out over email. However on the project manager's side this is a misunderstanding in that, IMO, Gary is only posting here to help other see that they need to have a firm understanding of the legal side of game dev; specifically copyrights and IP.
Anyhow, it seems to be worked out now since Gary's work is being removed from the project and Gary is removing any of the team's work from his site (if there was any to begin with.)
Oh and by the by, with the internet never take something personally. I learned that the hard way and i'm sure you see this now.
The problem with sorting things out over email or in a forum is that it's all text; there's no body language, no voice inflections and the like. Misunderstanding runs rampant on the internet which is why so many parents are afraid to let their kids roam freely in chat rooms, forums and such.
anyway... I have to get going... passport renewal forms need to be picked up.
~ian wheat
just my $0.02
#20
www.loc.gov/copyright/
If it's art (2D, 3D or otherwise) just file a VA Form with the work on disc and $30. If it's software (ie: a complete game) file a TX Form with disc and $30. You will be covered legally... no ifs, ands or buts about it. Very simple and effective. Saves you from this type of BS.
03/06/2003 (10:44 am)
I'm going to skip the bickering above. So, sorry if I missed this being posted already.www.loc.gov/copyright/
If it's art (2D, 3D or otherwise) just file a VA Form with the work on disc and $30. If it's software (ie: a complete game) file a TX Form with disc and $30. You will be covered legally... no ifs, ands or buts about it. Very simple and effective. Saves you from this type of BS.
Ian Wheat