Documentation

#21 Technically I agree, that is if the code is released. Large chunks of my code aren't well documented at all, however if I use it as an example I will sit down and document most lines. But yes code released without any sort of documentation is a nightmare.

Owen

#22 I agree, undocumented code can be a nightmare to decipher. Unfortunately , the initial version of the V12 is undocumented... :( We will be working to rectify the situation though.

#23 We have opted to use a different engine for testomg because of the lack of V12 documentation.
We are going to have to wait untill V12 has some sort of reference material or documentation before our coders can get stuck into. We have looked at it and its going to be a right pain to sift through it ourselves.
I would really really like to see someone that has experience with the V12 engine to give us a basic document that may explain a few of the headaches to us.

#24 I am going to wat too. You see $100 is quite a small amount, but I can not see reason why I have to pay even $100 for engine that is undocumented. I am aprogrammer with strong C++ skills, but it may take months to decipher engine. I can not agree that releasing engine without documentation is better than hold it six months before documentation is ready. Is that better to spend a year deciphering engine and hoping that somebody will document engine for you? What if it never happen, like (Jet3D, CrystalSpace, Genesis)? Before selling a product (even for $100) you must have it!!!
At this time I rather preffer to purchase a fully documented engine for may be $40-70K) than to spent months deciphering as I am even not sure this engine is what I need.
Also you must take into account that you are forced to sell your game to Garagegames EXCLUSIVELY. That is what I call a BIIIIG PROBLEM. Slavery again???
Statment that community will help write documentation is foolish. Community never does such thing. Does it? Show me even one engine that is documented by community.
OK guys may be see you after six months. See if you have documentation then.

#25 Makumba, seriously you would rather pay 40,000 than get the V12 engine as it is now for 100! Yes it is undocumented but since you've never seen the code do you have any idea of the quality of code in it, it could be reasonably self explanatory. Have you also seen the source for the Quake Engine, it's not stunningly documented either, and that is what people who licensed that engine got! If you look at SDK's released for iD games, or for many of those using the same engine they aren't well documented. Regardless of this people manage to produce high quality games from these.

Yes the V12 is suffering from a severe lack of documentation, and people are opting to wait or go elsewhere, otoh as new versions of the V12 are released and documentation becomes available you can download that new source and documentation, just because you bought v1.0.0 doesn't mean that is what you are stuck with.

Also the reason we only have to $100 is because we sell to GG, if we could go anywhere we would be paying 40k->70k for this engine! So it's not slavery, it's comprimise, and anyway who said you'd get a better deal for your product elsewhere?

This isn't a negotiable set up, it's a take it or leave it, and it's a take it or leave it because it is an incredible deal.

Owen

#26 [humor on]
Um, wouldn't digging through the code and documenting it be disallowed under the license agreement? I mean, it is a form of reverse engineering, and the license forbids that.
[humor off]

Cary

#27 I suppose you have $40,000 for a new engine? Must be nice. ;-)

BTW, with slavery you don't have a choice.


-*-Eric

#28 This is not meant to flame or trash GG or the V12 at all, I'm a big fan [player] of T2 and the engine.

I too have decided to seriously consider developing my engine in-house instead of going with the V12. In my specific case mainly because I am interested in the terrain and models aspect only -- I don't require the multi-player and network portions and a bunch of the other areas -- with no documentation it may be difficult to extract these areas out. Plus with no audio, I would have to add that anyway... so we are playing with DX8 here to do the engine at this time.
Also, if I only incorporated [say] 25% of the V12 engine code and coded the rest in-house, GG still gets the rights. I may be too paranoid though...

David

#29 Well be adding audio back in ourselves. It's on Rick's list :) Certainly if you have the time to build your own, go for it. But I've been down that path a few times; it's not nearly as easy as it sounds, and usually takes much longer than anticipated. Rolling your own is always very tempting though :)

#30 Hi Tim,

I agree, it is a huge undertaking to create a game engine. The team development time for engines such as Unreal, Tribes, etc. is measured in years.
I am still considering getting the engine code, even if I don't release a game using it (it's always good seeing how others do their magic).
As I had mentioned in my previous message, much of what is in the engine I would not use, and the remaining portions would require mods. So I'm feeling that if I have to edit and re-code a large portion, I may as well target my own engine for my exact needs.

David