Questions/Comments on T3D
by J · in Torque 3D Professional · 06/08/2009 (12:08 pm) · 15 replies
Is everything we've seen in the T3D blogs so far expected to be in the final release of T3D? I mean like Ross's lightray shader, all of Gerhard's wetness and precipitation/and other shaders he's made that you've shown, soft particles and all the other eye candy stuff you've advertised? AND how to use them.
I know the tree/terrain painter will be from a kit by Sickhead, but what exactly are we looking at getting? Maybe you guys can't say yet, but I've been a bit disappointed, and from the sound it, many people have been.
My biggest disappointment thus far though: Is there going to be an upgrade to the current terrain system? I would like the ability to make "cliffs" or slopped terrain, overhangs... I'd like to think of it as showing the nodes of the terrain, then you can move them in any direction you want. A workable mesh... An idea similar to the road editor with an enhancment on the texturing to ensure it doesn't get too distorted... Plus, the terrain as it stands, is very inefficent and clipping along the intersection of the terrain with objects is glitchy and distorted(as well as shadows and even solid color materials/textures). I know it's beta, but guess I was just expecting a little more.
Other comments/questions:
-You can't set a custom color to StaticShape/Shape objects in the editor.
-The first shape replicator I put in a level had invisible trees and messed up collision, figure that would have been fixed.
-Object selection should be standard. I mean, never seen a game that doesn't use this, really surprised you have to hard code it in. Um..sorry you can script it...kind of... to have anything decent you have to hard code it. Like a colored outline on an object, TLK, now a shader can do it, but it would be handy to have this standard. Or at least a basic coded raycast in the player object that returns whatever you are facing's ID, as %obj, at a controlable distance.
-I do like the Skatter Sky....might adjust the sky color to not be prodecuraly generated. I looks too dark.
-Really like the terrain painter system. That is way cool! Hope you get normal map working.
-The expanded camera is nice. I like the smoothed rotation and such, really neat. Is this going to be built on? God mode/various 3rd Person style cameras? Orbit that works?
All in all, I think it could be a sweet engine. But so far...if you're planning on having all sorts of neat stuff out of the box...you're gonna be disappointed. Just beta I know. And for the sake of cost, I know you're not going to get a high end engine. But some things here that I feel need addressed.
I know the tree/terrain painter will be from a kit by Sickhead, but what exactly are we looking at getting? Maybe you guys can't say yet, but I've been a bit disappointed, and from the sound it, many people have been.
My biggest disappointment thus far though: Is there going to be an upgrade to the current terrain system? I would like the ability to make "cliffs" or slopped terrain, overhangs... I'd like to think of it as showing the nodes of the terrain, then you can move them in any direction you want. A workable mesh... An idea similar to the road editor with an enhancment on the texturing to ensure it doesn't get too distorted... Plus, the terrain as it stands, is very inefficent and clipping along the intersection of the terrain with objects is glitchy and distorted(as well as shadows and even solid color materials/textures). I know it's beta, but guess I was just expecting a little more.
Other comments/questions:
-You can't set a custom color to StaticShape/Shape objects in the editor.
-The first shape replicator I put in a level had invisible trees and messed up collision, figure that would have been fixed.
-Object selection should be standard. I mean, never seen a game that doesn't use this, really surprised you have to hard code it in. Um..sorry you can script it...kind of... to have anything decent you have to hard code it. Like a colored outline on an object, TLK, now a shader can do it, but it would be handy to have this standard. Or at least a basic coded raycast in the player object that returns whatever you are facing's ID, as %obj, at a controlable distance.
-I do like the Skatter Sky....might adjust the sky color to not be prodecuraly generated. I looks too dark.
-Really like the terrain painter system. That is way cool! Hope you get normal map working.
-The expanded camera is nice. I like the smoothed rotation and such, really neat. Is this going to be built on? God mode/various 3rd Person style cameras? Orbit that works?
All in all, I think it could be a sweet engine. But so far...if you're planning on having all sorts of neat stuff out of the box...you're gonna be disappointed. Just beta I know. And for the sake of cost, I know you're not going to get a high end engine. But some things here that I feel need addressed.
About the author
www.act7gaming.com
#2
06/08/2009 (12:57 pm)
@Tom: Well done on writing such a level-headed response. 
#3
You get invisible objects until you reload the level.
Replicated shapes use their own collision meshes (if they are exported with them).
There has always been misplaced/phantom collisions whilst using Shape Replicator, someone (possibly Konrad) coded a fix not too long ago, though I've not tried it, it should be floating around the T3D forums somewhere.
edit: and here it is
06/08/2009 (1:34 pm)
Shape Replicator:You get invisible objects until you reload the level.
Replicated shapes use their own collision meshes (if they are exported with them).
There has always been misplaced/phantom collisions whilst using Shape Replicator, someone (possibly Konrad) coded a fix not too long ago, though I've not tried it, it should be floating around the T3D forums somewhere.
edit: and here it is
#4
Just to emphasis what Tom is talking about here, we're doing some art for a TGEA 1.8 product and when running the profiler the terrain was taking up about 45% of our processing time. I didn't look at the video memory but its also likely the largest hit as well.
I agree with Tom here I like that its procedurally generated to match time of day. The only thing I would like to see with it would be to add a few of the sky features you see in Mental Ray such as Tint (lets you shift it from normal, to orangish or strong blue), Saturation, Background (based on a spherical image that has been flattend out) and control over the size of the Sun object.
06/08/2009 (1:53 pm)
Quote:The current terrain system is the upgrade. It is leaps and bounds beyond the performance and functionality of TGEA terrain.
Just to emphasis what Tom is talking about here, we're doing some art for a TGEA 1.8 product and when running the profiler the terrain was taking up about 45% of our processing time. I didn't look at the video memory but its also likely the largest hit as well.
Quote:Thats the exact reason for ScatterSky... it is to procedurally generate the colors in the atmosphere. If you want to control the color either adjust the mie/rayleigh/viewerHeight or use a SkyBox.
I agree with Tom here I like that its procedurally generated to match time of day. The only thing I would like to see with it would be to add a few of the sky features you see in Mental Ray such as Tint (lets you shift it from normal, to orangish or strong blue), Saturation, Background (based on a spherical image that has been flattend out) and control over the size of the Sun object.
#5
06/08/2009 (2:01 pm)
@Logan, you can change the size of the sun area by adjusting the mieCoefficient.
#6
And I will defenitly look more into the optimized mesh from collada like you said. I just didn't know if that was it or more upgrades where coming? If the terrain system was going to have anything for more advance manipulation. Cliffs, overhangs and such?
I do realize the shape rep. does not have collision, its the exported shape's collision that is not being handled correctly. Via client/server side, or whatever was causing it. This happened in 1.5.2, 1.7.1 and 1.8.1 and I used the fix and the updated fixes for TGEA. Still had issues. I just thought that since this is beta, would be something to look into to.
06/08/2009 (4:15 pm)
@Tom:Quote:Id say its exactly the opposite.Just made the comment considering a few posts I've read and my own personal opinion. Namely in regards to the blog videos that show a lot of things that aren't in the actual beta. I would like to see them in there; that's what sold me on T3D. Possibly they just aren't in there yet. Don't know. If we have to buy it separately...no problem. But I don't think it should be advertised with all that cool stuff, then you buy it and it isn't there. Just wandering what the story was.
Quote:The current terrain system is the upgrade. It is leaps and bounds beyond the performance and functionality of TGEA terrain.Reason I asked this. I'm getting 250 to 300 fps looking at the sky and then looking down at the terrain I drop down to 75 to 85. That's in a "new mission" level, no settings changed. There was also holes in the terrain that shouldn't be there. The editing is the exact same as TGEA/TGE. I was under the impression that this would be improved upon.
And I will defenitly look more into the optimized mesh from collada like you said. I just didn't know if that was it or more upgrades where coming? If the terrain system was going to have anything for more advance manipulation. Cliffs, overhangs and such?
Quote:Not sure what you mean... could you post an example screenshot or video?I'll have to get a few screen shots on here tomorrow. It happens up close to a solid color. Gives off kind of a pixelized distortion.
I do realize the shape rep. does not have collision, its the exported shape's collision that is not being handled correctly. Via client/server side, or whatever was causing it. This happened in 1.5.2, 1.7.1 and 1.8.1 and I used the fix and the updated fixes for TGEA. Still had issues. I just thought that since this is beta, would be something to look into to.
#7
Maybe I'm being dumb here.... But if these abilities were in the T3D ongoing blogs, why would they not be incorperated in the release? We're still in the beta man. Maybe they didn't put these in yet because they want the beta testers to focus on other things right now?
06/08/2009 (4:47 pm)
Quote:Is everything we've seen in the T3D blogs so far expected to be in the final release of T3D? I mean like Ross's lightray shader, all of Gerhard's wetness and precipitation/and other shaders he's made that you've shown, soft particles and all the other eye candy stuff you've advertised?
Maybe I'm being dumb here.... But if these abilities were in the T3D ongoing blogs, why would they not be incorperated in the release? We're still in the beta man. Maybe they didn't put these in yet because they want the beta testers to focus on other things right now?
#8
Lightray is already in.
Wetness is not in yet.
Soft particles are in.
06/08/2009 (4:51 pm)
You're also talking about content vs. tools and technology. All the tech that we've said will be in the engine *will* be in the engine if it isn't already. Getting every single piece of art that's ever been shown in a demo is unrealistic. Even so, we're shipping Torque 3D now with a LOT of HQ content.Lightray is already in.
Wetness is not in yet.
Soft particles are in.
#10
That's a great point about focusing on other things right now too. Understand that completely.
06/09/2009 (6:52 am)
"yet" That is what I asked. I just wanted to know what we were looking at for future betas/release. And just some comments on other stuff I had found. Thanks for the comments guys, sorry to get everyone in an uproar, was not my intention to come off as a a$$hole. I apologize.That's a great point about focusing on other things right now too. Understand that completely.
#11
06/09/2009 (7:33 am)
The soft particles were always there, since beta 1. Every particle is a soft particle. Every time someone lists them as a missing feature their entire point falls apart. 
#12
As for the Gerhard stuff I think we are all waiting :-). There are a few more things like the hole punching for the terrain that is in the code just not in the tools yet so things aren't quite in RC yet, but a good deal of the stuff that was advertised is there and mostly a few things are missing and the big * at the top of the list Advanced Lighting Performance.
06/09/2009 (8:26 am)
J, not sure if it is in a post either but the lightrays bit is in, just not in the options dialog yet. If you do a search on the forums you should find the commands to enable it and I believe there was some instructions on how to add it to the options. I am sure something will be put together before it is released.As for the Gerhard stuff I think we are all waiting :-). There are a few more things like the hole punching for the terrain that is in the code just not in the tools yet so things aren't quite in RC yet, but a good deal of the stuff that was advertised is there and mostly a few things are missing and the big * at the top of the list Advanced Lighting Performance.
#14
I didn't write it and have nothing to do with it's creation. But I've struggled through one year (now seems like a struggle) of atlas and legacy hell - juggling between the two, trying to decide whether I want the beauty or the beast.
I love the new, simple, yet impressively effective terrain - especially the no-overlay idea and the possibilities with its shader.
I've been making resources for it, so you can probably tell that I like it a lot. I think you should get more familiar with it before you say something like that. *grumble grumble*
06/10/2009 (11:34 am)
Quote:
the terrain as it stands, is very inefficent
I didn't write it and have nothing to do with it's creation. But I've struggled through one year (now seems like a struggle) of atlas and legacy hell - juggling between the two, trying to decide whether I want the beauty or the beast.
I love the new, simple, yet impressively effective terrain - especially the no-overlay idea and the possibilities with its shader.
I've been making resources for it, so you can probably tell that I like it a lot. I think you should get more familiar with it before you say something like that. *grumble grumble*
#15
HDR, lightray and the advanced lighting looks friggen sweet btw!
hmmm...isn't working: PicA
PicB
06/11/2009 (7:38 am)
@konrad: I have seen your resources and all the other stuff you've done. You've done some awesome work. I will become more familiar with the terrain, but that was just my first impression and I was asking if it was going to be updated anymore.HDR, lightray and the advanced lighting looks friggen sweet btw!
hmmm...isn't working: PicA
PicB
Associate Tom Spilman
Sickhead Games
The current terrain system is the upgrade. It is leaps and bounds beyond the performance and functionality of TGEA terrain.
A non-technical person would think that... but its not that simple.
Still you can totally do this... build your terrain in 3dsMax and export it as an optimized mesh into the Collada format.
Thats your opinion... but its not a fact that its "very inefficent".
Not sure what you mean... could you post an example screenshot or video?
There was a bug in the beta 2 terrain shadows that was fixed.
Its a beta. I remember a Win98 beta build that wiped out all my email from 1994 to 1998... i never recoved it.
I think the Torque 3D beta is going really well and it has surpassed my expectations.
Thats not how those work. Look at the material settings for your object to change its color.
I don't know about invisible trees... but i don't think the shape replicatior has ever supported collison. I could be wrong on that one.
I have no clue what this means.
Thats the exact reason for ScatterSky... it is to procedurally generate the colors in the atmosphere. If you want to control the color either adjust the mie/rayleigh/viewerHeight or use a SkyBox.
The terrain normal mapping is working and will be in beta 3.
The code is there to support it, but it was only aimed at making the edtiors and video capturing easier to do. It may be used for gameplay i guess... depends on your game.