Does a Torque 3D Pro purchase include lifetime updates and support?
by Jon Davis · in General Discussion · 05/29/2009 (9:38 pm) · 21 replies
Thinking about Torque 3D Pro as a very serious investment in a hobby. I am *not* prepared to produce commercial games in the very short timeframe (not for the next year or two), although I'm hoping I might delve into it more deeply in a couple years down the road.
I might make the purchase of the T3DPro license, but only if it includes both lifetime updates and lifetime support. By updates, from my understanding, T3DPro will be the GG's premier toolset for developing games. But I've seen some four or five major toolsets come from GG, and I do NOT want to make a purchase of this product if some Torque 4D Mega XP Pro is going to come out next year. If I get this, I want it to be the permanent deluxe copy of "all that and a ball of wax", with nothing coming down the line making me consider tossing this one and replacing it for some "new and improved" replacement with a separate cost.
Am I good to go?
I might make the purchase of the T3DPro license, but only if it includes both lifetime updates and lifetime support. By updates, from my understanding, T3DPro will be the GG's premier toolset for developing games. But I've seen some four or five major toolsets come from GG, and I do NOT want to make a purchase of this product if some Torque 4D Mega XP Pro is going to come out next year. If I get this, I want it to be the permanent deluxe copy of "all that and a ball of wax", with nothing coming down the line making me consider tossing this one and replacing it for some "new and improved" replacement with a separate cost.
Am I good to go?
#3
And $1000 covers about 4 days of one average game programmer's salary.
05/29/2009 (10:05 pm)
A game engine is different than most software. It needs constant work and R&D in order to keep up with the technology and the market, not just occasional bug fixes and security updates.And $1000 covers about 4 days of one average game programmer's salary.
#4
If you enjoyed working on cars from example, how much might you spend a year? Or if like me, you have a taste for cool guitars, you'd definitely be budgeting that kind of money to scratch your itch on a yearly basis.
Also if a 4D Mega XP Pro does come out, you can determine if you have the means, need and desire at that point in time. Meanwhile you've built up your knowledge with T3D and be in a position to appreciate and use the new features, or you could just as easily pass on them and focus on how *you* want to modify the existing code base for *your* needs.
Please don't take this as a put down at all - I was just reflecting on your statement and wanted to share my thoughts. As a business, GG will always be producing bigger and better stuff, but as Gerald alluded to, there is still a need to make sure they can put food on the table.
05/30/2009 (7:19 am)
Its worth stepping back and taking things into perspective as you evaluate the purchase. As a hobby, $1000 is not that big of an investment, particularly as it gives you an opportunity to work with a very capable code base and grow some skills that will definitely help you if you want to get into commercial development.If you enjoyed working on cars from example, how much might you spend a year? Or if like me, you have a taste for cool guitars, you'd definitely be budgeting that kind of money to scratch your itch on a yearly basis.
Also if a 4D Mega XP Pro does come out, you can determine if you have the means, need and desire at that point in time. Meanwhile you've built up your knowledge with T3D and be in a position to appreciate and use the new features, or you could just as easily pass on them and focus on how *you* want to modify the existing code base for *your* needs.
Please don't take this as a put down at all - I was just reflecting on your statement and wanted to share my thoughts. As a business, GG will always be producing bigger and better stuff, but as Gerald alluded to, there is still a need to make sure they can put food on the table.
#5
*You should ask yourself if you're happy enough to dev with a specific sdk, not if you're happy with having to have the latest sdk.
I have not licensed T3D yet, but I assume you will be very happy with it as a "starting out sdk" and perhaps beyond that. You have plenty to learn and the sooner the better. ;)
Edit: Probably should have wrote this faster without focusing so much on chewing my food. Then I wouldn't look like I re-worded Robert's post. :X
05/30/2009 (7:37 am)
Jon, There will always be a 'all that and a new ball of wax'..or else no one would have to keep up with the Jones'...which means the $4k I just spent on small house changes should be back in my pocket. [Damn them for making a new light style that is not that shiny gold-like ugliness!!! damnnnnn themmmmm!]*You should ask yourself if you're happy enough to dev with a specific sdk, not if you're happy with having to have the latest sdk.
I have not licensed T3D yet, but I assume you will be very happy with it as a "starting out sdk" and perhaps beyond that. You have plenty to learn and the sooner the better. ;)
Edit: Probably should have wrote this faster without focusing so much on chewing my food. Then I wouldn't look like I re-worded Robert's post. :X
#6
Though they're likely to be shifting to an annual paid update cycle, I would venture to guess that it won't be a real expensive one for current owners, and if at some point they shift gears again to a new major upgrade along the lines of the current T3D upgrade, that current owners will continue to get a substantial discount. So the risk of buying in earlier than necessary should be fairly minimal.
I don't work for GG so don't take this as fact, but just wait until they announce their final plans on that, which I suspect they will do by the time T3D reaches gold status.
05/30/2009 (7:41 am)
GG has been pretty good with this stuff too, as far as keeping the cost of upgrades as painless as possible for current licensees. When they came out with TGEA, anybody who had a TGE license could get the full cost of TGE discounted from their purchase of TGEA. The same is true of T3D; anybody who owns TGEA gets the full price of TGEA discounted from T3D. Though they're likely to be shifting to an annual paid update cycle, I would venture to guess that it won't be a real expensive one for current owners, and if at some point they shift gears again to a new major upgrade along the lines of the current T3D upgrade, that current owners will continue to get a substantial discount. So the risk of buying in earlier than necessary should be fairly minimal.
I don't work for GG so don't take this as fact, but just wait until they announce their final plans on that, which I suspect they will do by the time T3D reaches gold status.
#7
Sounds like not. Which is fine, but it definitely takes away my interest in this product, for my own reasons, namely that despite being a software developer I am not a games developer and this would be too much of an investment right now.
I was also looking at Unity 3D which looks much the same in terms of tooling.
BTW,
However, "$1,000 is about four days of pay for a game engine developer," yeah, well, a) that ain't my problem, and b) if you sell it for cheaper you multiply the sales and make up for the loss, so they'll have to do good math.
For that matter, I might even be willing to consider investing, and invest in an annual "updates and support fee", if that support fee is nominal, i.e. maybe one or two hundred bucks.
05/30/2009 (1:39 pm)
Hey I'm not saying it's unfair. It's just that I've observed occasional software vendors sometimes have the nicer "lifetime updates and support" and they get along just fine for it, and I was curious as to whether that was the case here.Sounds like not. Which is fine, but it definitely takes away my interest in this product, for my own reasons, namely that despite being a software developer I am not a games developer and this would be too much of an investment right now.
I was also looking at Unity 3D which looks much the same in terms of tooling.
BTW,
Quote:A game engine is different than most software. It needs constant work and R&D in order to keep up with the technology and the market, not just occasional bug fixes and security updates.A very valid point. Point taken.
However, "$1,000 is about four days of pay for a game engine developer," yeah, well, a) that ain't my problem, and b) if you sell it for cheaper you multiply the sales and make up for the loss, so they'll have to do good math.
For that matter, I might even be willing to consider investing, and invest in an annual "updates and support fee", if that support fee is nominal, i.e. maybe one or two hundred bucks.
#8
Not your problem, but it's reality. I was just putting it in perspective of why the $1,000 price tag doesn't necessarily mean they should be giving free updates for life. The only other game engine I know of that does that is a one-man show, not a team of 40+ employees.
A common argument. So we can all just sell our software for a penny, and make up for it through this mathematical formula? Selling something for less doesn't mean you're going to make up for it in increased sales.
That's why I suggest waiting to see what it's going to be. T3D is still in Beta, and they haven't decided on all of the upgrade paths yet. No idea at this point how much the annual updates are going to be. I can't imagine it being much more than that. It doesn't sound like you're ready to do much with it yet, so no need to rush.
05/30/2009 (9:50 pm)
Quote:
a) that ain't my problem
Not your problem, but it's reality. I was just putting it in perspective of why the $1,000 price tag doesn't necessarily mean they should be giving free updates for life. The only other game engine I know of that does that is a one-man show, not a team of 40+ employees.
Quote:
b) if you sell it for cheaper you multiply the sales and make up for the loss, so they'll have to do good math.
A common argument. So we can all just sell our software for a penny, and make up for it through this mathematical formula? Selling something for less doesn't mean you're going to make up for it in increased sales.
Quote:
For that matter, I might even be willing to consider investing, and invest in an annual "updates and support fee", if that support fee is nominal, i.e. maybe one or two hundred bucks.
That's why I suggest waiting to see what it's going to be. T3D is still in Beta, and they haven't decided on all of the upgrade paths yet. No idea at this point how much the annual updates are going to be. I can't imagine it being much more than that. It doesn't sound like you're ready to do much with it yet, so no need to rush.
#9
Guess it'll be next year (or more likely not at all), since there's no indication of support plans.
How can a product be pre-orderable if there's no disclosure on support?
05/31/2009 (4:07 am)
Quote:. So we can all just sell our software for a penny, and make up for it through this mathematical formula? Selling something for less doesn't mean you're going to make up for it in increased sales.There's a sweet spot of cost vs. demand for any product; all I'm saying is that at $1,000 you're going to need to sell at least half as many as if the price was $500, and I doubt it will happen. It's too much.
Quote:no need to rushsure there is. If I'm going to get it it'll be either now or a year from now. There's a $200 discount if I get it within the next day or two.
Guess it'll be next year (or more likely not at all), since there's no indication of support plans.
How can a product be pre-orderable if there's no disclosure on support?
#10
When TGE was $100, people still said it was too much, even though GG gave out free updates for a very long time.
I think the T3D price tag is cheap... it helps support the work GG is doing, it isn't out of reach for dev's who want to make serious games.
Its turning in to an amazing engine and it cuts out a large group who just like to buy stuff, then use the "lack of this or that feature" as an excuess for not making a game.
Support is done via the forums.
"When you purchase Torque, you join more than 110,000 users creating games and sharing their knowledge with each other. You're granted access to the private forums for each product you own where you'll find your eager answers for all your questions by the community Torque experts and GG Torque pros alike."
You really can't get better support than you do on the forums.
And if for some reason your still stuck, then theres the paid GG support..
05/31/2009 (5:32 am)
Theres loads of people that will never be happy with the price.When TGE was $100, people still said it was too much, even though GG gave out free updates for a very long time.
I think the T3D price tag is cheap... it helps support the work GG is doing, it isn't out of reach for dev's who want to make serious games.
Its turning in to an amazing engine and it cuts out a large group who just like to buy stuff, then use the "lack of this or that feature" as an excuess for not making a game.
Support is done via the forums.
"When you purchase Torque, you join more than 110,000 users creating games and sharing their knowledge with each other. You're granted access to the private forums for each product you own where you'll find your eager answers for all your questions by the community Torque experts and GG Torque pros alike."
You really can't get better support than you do on the forums.
And if for some reason your still stuck, then theres the paid GG support..
#11
Maybe because you're not buying support. You can pay for it if you wish, or you can buy the engine and get support from the community. Or if you're talking about upgrades, then you can go read the threads they've been posting for months now about these things and see how they are trying to discuss things with the community.
And in these discussions, you would see that GG has been very good to us in the past, but has grown from 4 people to about 40, and they all need to eat so that they can provide upgrades and support. But we can't freeload forever, and it's bad form to whine about why you should pay others for their work. So rather than saying that the amount of money that it takes to pay programmers is not your problem... It very much is, isn't it?
05/31/2009 (6:18 am)
Quote:How can a product be pre-orderable if there's no disclosure on support?
Maybe because you're not buying support. You can pay for it if you wish, or you can buy the engine and get support from the community. Or if you're talking about upgrades, then you can go read the threads they've been posting for months now about these things and see how they are trying to discuss things with the community.
And in these discussions, you would see that GG has been very good to us in the past, but has grown from 4 people to about 40, and they all need to eat so that they can provide upgrades and support. But we can't freeload forever, and it's bad form to whine about why you should pay others for their work. So rather than saying that the amount of money that it takes to pay programmers is not your problem... It very much is, isn't it?
#12
Jon is right, no it's not anyone customer here's problem, it's GG problem. Let's not get the facts intertwined here. GG is running a business. In a business, you have these things called business expenses. It's the company's problem to figure out how they are going to take care of paying their employees salaries, not ours. How many employees GG has or the current going rate for programmers has nothing to do with customer evaluation of their product. As a customer, we are basing our decision to buy on the product, it's price, and it's featuresonly, not GG's business expenses. GG's business expenses shouldn't be submitted as reasoning for the price of their products, the justification of the price should be based on the return value of product.
05/31/2009 (11:38 am)
Quote:
Everybody has to eat; even game engine programmers :P
Quote:
$1000 covers about 4 days of one average game programmer's salary.
Quote:
there is still a need to make sure they can put food on the table.
Quote:
So rather than saying that the amount of money that it takes to pay programmers is not your problem... It very much is, isn't it?
Jon is right, no it's not anyone customer here's problem, it's GG problem. Let's not get the facts intertwined here. GG is running a business. In a business, you have these things called business expenses. It's the company's problem to figure out how they are going to take care of paying their employees salaries, not ours. How many employees GG has or the current going rate for programmers has nothing to do with customer evaluation of their product. As a customer, we are basing our decision to buy on the product, it's price, and it's featuresonly, not GG's business expenses. GG's business expenses shouldn't be submitted as reasoning for the price of their products, the justification of the price should be based on the return value of product.
#13
And likewise, complaints about the price of the product should be based on a comparison of the product to other products on the market and their prices, not on whether we are hobbyists, Indies, or commercial studios, or if we just feel like we should pay less because we don't want to part with the money.
Your logic is sound on your end, but it's definitely a two-way street. Sure, making money is a GG problem. But paying money is a customer problem. So sure, GG shouldn't whine about how many people they have now (and I never heard them do so). But again, maybe we shouldn't whine about the price increase because of our own problems.
05/31/2009 (12:04 pm)
Quote:GG's business expenses shouldn't be submitted as reasoning for the price of their products, the justification of the price should be based on the return value of product.
And likewise, complaints about the price of the product should be based on a comparison of the product to other products on the market and their prices, not on whether we are hobbyists, Indies, or commercial studios, or if we just feel like we should pay less because we don't want to part with the money.
Your logic is sound on your end, but it's definitely a two-way street. Sure, making money is a GG problem. But paying money is a customer problem. So sure, GG shouldn't whine about how many people they have now (and I never heard them do so). But again, maybe we shouldn't whine about the price increase because of our own problems.
#14
You're right. We should whine about the price increase because of other reasons such as the lack of lifetime updates and support.
05/31/2009 (12:56 pm)
Quote:
But again, maybe we shouldn't whine about the price increase because of our own problems.
You're right. We should whine about the price increase because of other reasons such as the lack of lifetime updates and support.
#15
Nothing lacking about that.
05/31/2009 (1:31 pm)
@Sean H - The support structure for Torque 3D is better than any of the past engines: more employees interacting in the forums, more transparent development, more organized bug reporting/fixing, and more comprehensive documentation written from scratch specifically for Torque 3D.Nothing lacking about that.
#16
Okay, so let's look at this...
Lifetime Support: Ask a question on the forums, get an answer from either community or from GG people. They've never charged for it, and the only separation between those who paid and those who haven't is access to the private forums, for the purposes of securing discussions about source code. As far as getting a dedicated person on the phone- well, it's available on an hourly basis. And honestly, some of the people on the forums here are just seriously brilliant people.
And lifetime upgrades and support for other engines?
Unity3D: Nope (look at their store link for the upgrade pricing between versions). Support is based on their website's resource section, with a paid option for premium support.
Unreal: No. Licensing is differentiated between versions, with v2 at $350,000, and v3 significantly higher. Support is offered for development cycle +12 months after.
Hero Engine: Unknown, seems based more on distribution model than version. Also a six-figure engine, AFAIK. Support levels are also unknown but "annual programs" were mentioned.
Multiverse: Free for non-commercial use, 10% royalties otherwise. So technically, free upgrades for life, but then again, you never stop paying either, if you have a product making money. Forum support is offered, as well as premium support (paid, starting at $1000/month).
Ogre: Yes. Open source engine with free upgrades for life, and all the support you can get from their forums.
This isn't an exhaustive list, but then again, GG isn't operating anywhere near the edge of the norm with their policies.
05/31/2009 (1:55 pm)
Quote:We should whine about the price increase because of other reasons such as the lack of lifetime updates and support.
Okay, so let's look at this...
Lifetime Support: Ask a question on the forums, get an answer from either community or from GG people. They've never charged for it, and the only separation between those who paid and those who haven't is access to the private forums, for the purposes of securing discussions about source code. As far as getting a dedicated person on the phone- well, it's available on an hourly basis. And honestly, some of the people on the forums here are just seriously brilliant people.
And lifetime upgrades and support for other engines?
Unity3D: Nope (look at their store link for the upgrade pricing between versions). Support is based on their website's resource section, with a paid option for premium support.
Unreal: No. Licensing is differentiated between versions, with v2 at $350,000, and v3 significantly higher. Support is offered for development cycle +12 months after.
Hero Engine: Unknown, seems based more on distribution model than version. Also a six-figure engine, AFAIK. Support levels are also unknown but "annual programs" were mentioned.
Multiverse: Free for non-commercial use, 10% royalties otherwise. So technically, free upgrades for life, but then again, you never stop paying either, if you have a product making money. Forum support is offered, as well as premium support (paid, starting at $1000/month).
Ogre: Yes. Open source engine with free upgrades for life, and all the support you can get from their forums.
This isn't an exhaustive list, but then again, GG isn't operating anywhere near the edge of the norm with their policies.
#17
GG talked to the community about this before they came up with the licensing plan. Go search Brett Seyler's blogs, you'll find one that has about 500 comments. They didn't just pull this licensing model out of their ass.
That's part of the reason for the pre-order discount. Why do you think they're giving a $200 discount?
Ultimately, the value of a game engine is based on how much money it will save you by not doing it yourself or hiring somebody to do it. Therefore, the return value of licensing the game engine is directly tied to the cost of game developer salaries. I don't know how much GG is paying their employees, I was talking about the average salary for game programmers.
05/31/2009 (2:17 pm)
Quote:
There's a sweet spot of cost vs. demand for any product; all I'm saying is that at $1,000 you're going to need to sell at least half as many as if the price was $500, and I doubt it will happen. It's too much.
GG talked to the community about this before they came up with the licensing plan. Go search Brett Seyler's blogs, you'll find one that has about 500 comments. They didn't just pull this licensing model out of their ass.
Quote:How can a product be pre-orderable if there's no disclosure on support?
That's part of the reason for the pre-order discount. Why do you think they're giving a $200 discount?
Quote:GG's business expenses shouldn't be submitted as reasoning for the price of their products, the justification of the price should be based on the return value of product.
Ultimately, the value of a game engine is based on how much money it will save you by not doing it yourself or hiring somebody to do it. Therefore, the return value of licensing the game engine is directly tied to the cost of game developer salaries. I don't know how much GG is paying their employees, I was talking about the average salary for game programmers.
#18
Pre-order discounts exist in general in this world to garner the interest and loyalty of brand spanking new customers (like me) and, in the case of software, to reward those who stick it out through beta phases. That discount has NOTHING to do with failure to disclose what you're buying in terms of the support that comes with the software. It's a PRE-ORDER, not a "NO-SUPPORT-DISCLOSURE order".
This could just be a "web site design" issue, I don't know, but generally when I spend more than $30 on a piece of software, particularly when there is a community being supported and loyalty caveats, I expect to be told up front what I'm buying besides a bunch of binary DLLs and EXEs. Yes, even if I'm pre-ordering. I expect that language to be somewhat more vague due to time constraints of getting preorders out, but up front nonetheless.
That said, to answer my own question (and to acknowledge the responses of some who replied to the OP), there appears to be no support disclosure because there isn't any, except what is already clearly visible on the site: Forums, and paid support services @ $250/hr. That paid services fee per hour seems a little steep (by about $50-100) but should I ever need it at least I know they offer it as a side offering of the business if I'm ever up shyte creek, and it's good to know.
05/31/2009 (7:39 pm)
Quote:How can a product be pre-orderable if there's no disclosure on support?
Quote: That's part of the reason for the pre-order discount. Why do you think they're giving a $200 discount?"Why do you think.."? Are you serious? Or are you just really naive and inexperienced with commercial product marketing in the world in general?
Pre-order discounts exist in general in this world to garner the interest and loyalty of brand spanking new customers (like me) and, in the case of software, to reward those who stick it out through beta phases. That discount has NOTHING to do with failure to disclose what you're buying in terms of the support that comes with the software. It's a PRE-ORDER, not a "NO-SUPPORT-DISCLOSURE order".
This could just be a "web site design" issue, I don't know, but generally when I spend more than $30 on a piece of software, particularly when there is a community being supported and loyalty caveats, I expect to be told up front what I'm buying besides a bunch of binary DLLs and EXEs. Yes, even if I'm pre-ordering. I expect that language to be somewhat more vague due to time constraints of getting preorders out, but up front nonetheless.
That said, to answer my own question (and to acknowledge the responses of some who replied to the OP), there appears to be no support disclosure because there isn't any, except what is already clearly visible on the site: Forums, and paid support services @ $250/hr. That paid services fee per hour seems a little steep (by about $50-100) but should I ever need it at least I know they offer it as a side offering of the business if I'm ever up shyte creek, and it's good to know.
#19
Is there more you expect? Do you want an engineer on call to help with any issues you encounter? If so, we can design a license with that kind of hands on help included. It will look more like this.
Hands on engineer time with customers is time away from product development. It's there if you need it, at a price that ensures you really do need it and will be worth an engineer's time away from development.
05/31/2009 (8:22 pm)
Support <-- That's been there since January. It applies to all Torque products.Is there more you expect? Do you want an engineer on call to help with any issues you encounter? If so, we can design a license with that kind of hands on help included. It will look more like this.
Hands on engineer time with customers is time away from product development. It's there if you need it, at a price that ensures you really do need it and will be worth an engineer's time away from development.
#20
Since I was probably doing this before you were born, I would venture to guess I'm not naive or inexperienced. I just happen to have actual experience with this company's products and actual experience being an early adopter of previous versions of their software, as well as actual experience being an early adopter of several other middle-ware libraries, as well as actually having read all of the discussions in the blogs leading up to this.
Though I admit I actually misread what you were saying there; my comment was aimed mainly at the lack of pricing for updates, rather than support. I guess I filtered that out because it was so obvious. But in general the pre-order discount, as with all early-adopter programs, are aimed at giving people a break who are willing to buy-in before all of the features and details, such as updates and support structures, as well as other additional costs such as the Genre Kits, are set in stone. I think perhaps "Pre-Order" may be a bit of a misnomer here, but it is what it is. Maybe they don't want to scare the people who bought into the last EA program :P
Anyway, I came here to answer your original question as straight as possible. Somehow we digressed, and it seems like you think you know it all anyway, so good luck with your hobby.
Cheers
05/31/2009 (9:30 pm)
Quote:
"Why do you think.."? Are you serious? Or are you just really naive and inexperienced with commercial product marketing in the world in general?
Since I was probably doing this before you were born, I would venture to guess I'm not naive or inexperienced. I just happen to have actual experience with this company's products and actual experience being an early adopter of previous versions of their software, as well as actual experience being an early adopter of several other middle-ware libraries, as well as actually having read all of the discussions in the blogs leading up to this.
Though I admit I actually misread what you were saying there; my comment was aimed mainly at the lack of pricing for updates, rather than support. I guess I filtered that out because it was so obvious. But in general the pre-order discount, as with all early-adopter programs, are aimed at giving people a break who are willing to buy-in before all of the features and details, such as updates and support structures, as well as other additional costs such as the Genre Kits, are set in stone. I think perhaps "Pre-Order" may be a bit of a misnomer here, but it is what it is. Maybe they don't want to scare the people who bought into the last EA program :P
Anyway, I came here to answer your original question as straight as possible. Somehow we digressed, and it seems like you think you know it all anyway, so good luck with your hobby.
Cheers
Torque Owner Gerald Fishel
Development Ninja