Is Westwood College worth it? (Update)

#1 I can't answer your question directly as I haven't had anything to do with Westwood College but my experience having picked up a Computer Engineering degree is that what college I went to had no bearing on my work. Most of what I've done at work has had nothing to do with what I learned in college (except for the foundation that college helped build).

I would expect any college (even inexpensive ones like the one I went to) can give you a good foundation that you can build from. What you would really want to do is work on your own games or design portfolio to get into actual development.

However given you say you aren't good at self study you might need the help of a game design college to help you build your portfolio.

The above may or may not be helpful :)

#2 Christopher Tomaras

I almost went to Westwood in Chicago; I spent several weeks talking with the admin there and talking with current students. All I can tell you is my experience and why I decided not to attend that private school.

Westwood College takes the approach of self teaching, meaning that all you are going to learn are the basics of your field. When it comes to truly learning how to achieve your goals you will need to explore on your own. They will provide a working hands on lab environment for learning the key programs for animation, programming or what ever but nothing very specific.

I own a start up animation and production studio named Datamancer Studio, my goal is to build 3D animations, produce video games and other forms of “new media”

I’m working with a partner that attended DeVry University for game programming and simulation, whom will also tell you that a “degree” in the field of game programming is almost a waist, unless you are looking for alternative end results. Example if you want to become a teacher, or produce you own how to books and what ever. A degree will look great on job applications but often leads to un-related careers. Just ask my Aunt who went to a university for zoology and ended up working for a newspaper.

I myself ended up attending The Academy Of Art University, Animation and Visual Effects Bachelors Program, and I must say, the curriculum was nearly identical to Westwood… It was all a self-teaching environment. The first thing they tell you in any animation school is that they cannot teach creativity.

The issue of any college offering degrees in game programming or animation is that they only teach you the fundamentals of how to use particular programs. I’m specifically talking about animation right now. In my experience I think it might have been better to apply the money for school directly to computer programs and self learning tools rather then spending the required time and needless money on a private college regiment that in the end still left me guessing at many aspects of this ever changing industry. To compensate the shortcomings of school I had to end up self-teaching myself after everything was done and over anyway.

To sum this up, decide what you want to do… If you want to work for Lucas Arts then a degree will not hurt, but remember this, Ryan, from the you tube hit video Ryan vs. Dorkman was hired by Lucas Arts based on his creative approach and raw talent for using what items and materials are available to him for any given project, not his school records. Most of what he learned was from self-teaching, similar to how Westwood teaches in the first place.

In the end, if any college tells you that you could be the next World of War craft producer… they lie. It’s all about your talent for creative entertainment, not what degree you hold from what college.

This industry is unlike any other, creative talent rules over academic knowledge.


If you have not seen Ryan vs Dorkman; here is the link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NE5elL30w4

This is the video that landed Ryan the job at ILM…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-is63goeBgc

Good Luck With What Ever Route You Take.

.

#3 Thank you for your insight, it's also refreshing to talk with people in our field because we're always trying to help each other get ahead. So I have decided to pursue Westwood at this point, I'm looking further into the school but if it's possible I'd like at least the start in the game design field, and I am sure my creativity can push me far beyond what the school can teach.

Again, thank you for this insight as it allows me realistic goals and plans.

#4 Good luck, you will enjoy Westwood, many others have. You will learn some valuable skills that you can carry with you through out your career if you chose to remain in the game development and simulation industry.

We are always learning, always teaching, and always in it together.

#5 @Chris,
Don't be afraid to cross-train. In fact, cross-train.

An artist with a technical/programming background is usually more likely to find work than an artist that can just make kick-ass characters. Let's think this through: what does a boss do with a guy that only makes models ? Answer:..he works him until there is no more work.
If you have other skills, then you move around, help and add precious ideas into meetings.

It seems these days that many, many people only focus on models and making great characters...yet, so many are unemployed right now that I wonder daily, why they simply don't add more skills to their skillset. ...and silly them, they think that they need to make 'better characters' rather than 'learn maxscript or melscript' or 'make better photoshop textures' rather than learn 'Vray and mental ray materials'.
Learn as much as you can, anywhere you can. Stay focused on your main field of work but take-in everything on the sidelines.

Afterall, your degree is just a sheet of paper saying that you can stay the course and you get the work done on at least a mediocre level. You are the real representation of yourself in this business.

Build relationships and be reliable. Reputation is 110% of this game.
[/end funky psychobabble]

#6 Thanks Eb, it's funny how originally it was "Hey guys I'm totally gonna go be this awesome programmer!" then it became "OMG I'm totally gonna be a designer" now after about 15 years (good lord I'm getting old) I'm interested in everything. I've grown up with video games and I know what I can do, I'm going to school to help myself along the way and learn how to get there as best as I can.

I am very interested in game design, level editing, storyboarding, character development, scriptwriting, programming and more. So if it's out there I'm interested, but since I can't draw my way out of a paper bag.... or even a paper bag.... I think that's one area I probably won't get too deep into :)

#7 Don't do it! Westwood College is bad news.

www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa090529_wz_westwoodfol...

News story explaining how they just settled a 7-million dollar federal law suit for fraud.

#8 Wow Matt, that's pretty freaky and has made me think twice about Westwood Online, they promised me the same thing and a 97% career rate.

#9 Wow I just started applying there and dropped out of my current college because they do not do game degrees. I"m so glad I started looking up reviews on their college, i am about a week from when I had to submit my application fee.
Christopher what did you end up doing?
i dont know how to send private messages but if you see this let me know what happened.
turtle.emperor@gmail.com

#10 Yeah I got this in my email. Actually I confronted the admissions woman about the current legal situation Westwood was in and she just sighed and gave me some legal mumbojumbo then never contacted me again. I think they know how badly this showed the college.

Currently I'm trying to get my old student loans fixed, the company we were forced to deal with really screw my wife and me over. They said after 6 months of paying them on my defaulted loans I could get more loans, however the VERY fine print said I only "could qualify" not definitly qualify for new student loans so I'm just waiting for the right time to get this all fixed.

#11 Wow, great advice. I was just in the admissions office of Westood Los Angeles a couple hours ago, getting their sales pitch.
I had a funny feeling about it. It seemed too good to be true. But I felt that it wasn't a tremendous learning environment, and Kathryn did say there was a lot self-learning. I can do that on my own. It's a 75k education at Westwood. And oh by the way they'll finance you at 10% interest rate!
I'm just starting out, total no clue. And for that $ I expect a lot. I think I should maybe just buy some programs and take some JC classes.
Thanks for the FYI
-f

#12 College is what you make of it. Regardless of the college you go to you should be learning more outside of class then in class. Just make sure your college is accredited and put tons of hours in building off what you learn in class and you will be fine :).

#13 Has it been a year already since I made this post? Well little update is required: My wife and I have an amazing son named Aiden, he's 7 months and loves XBox controllers nomnom lol.

I've finally fixed my student loans and looking at DeVry's Game and Simulation Programming Online Bachelor's course, I've heard good and bad but every other school looks far worse in what reviews I've read. Perhaps I can gain some helpful opinions here as to how far DeVry has taken others. I realize that I'm going to have to put a lot of work into the program to make it work for me, and that's one thing I fully intend to do.

I always thought Full Sail was the premier school but lately have heard it's one of the largest scams as far as classwork goes and that it's just a student mill. Anyone else hear this about Full Sail? Thanks for reading and I hope to get some good opinions.

#14 @Christopher - First of all, congrats to you and your wife on the birth of your son! Must be an amazing experience

As for Full Sail, every game development school has an outspoken few claiming it was a scam. I cannot speak on Westwood, but I did graduate from Full Sail. The problem with the posters is not all of them attended for game development. They could have been Recording Arts, Film, Digital Media, etc. You are going to get the full spectrum of angry people that did not make anything of themselves while attending, not just game developers.

I attended when they only had an Associate's Degree, and stuck around when they introduced the Bachelor's program. It was definitely a very tough program. The hours were killer (8 a day), the location sucked (Orlando), and I did have to go through a few pointless classes (just like any other college). There are some gaps in the program now, like a lack of classes that teach you how to work with 3rd party technology (such as Torque). I hear they are rectifying that.

However, with that said...I made it. I attended, I graduated, and I truly believe I got the education and experience I needed to land a job. Progression:

- Started attendance in 2004

- During attendance I met my wife and best friend. This is important because they helped me avoid a mental breakdown

- Graduated in 2006 with two final projects under my belt

- Was working a Staples during my last few months of classes, and just a couple after that

- Got a lead (from Full Sail's career development) programmer position for a simulation company

- Worked at the company doing Torque work for nearly two years

- Had a very lucky encounter with GarageGames at GDC '08.

- Got offered a contract position writing doc

- A couple months later, was hired on full time and moved out to Oregon to work for my dream company

- I'm not an Associate Producer and Lead Documentation Engineer for Torque

I consider that a success story. Wife, friends, dream job. To the point where Full Sail wrote a grad story about me recently. Was this journey all positive. Hell no. Let me write the comparison list:

(continued in next post)

#15 Good:

• Went in with absolutely 0 experience or knowledge of game development. Left knowing C, C++, C#, Lua, Python, MelScript, and Torque
• Went in having never worked on a real game, outside of RPGM2K. Graduated with two final game projects as part of my portfolio. One of which was Torque based
• Went in with no connections. Graduated with connections to peers, teachers, and industry professionals. Note: Outside of peers, I had to take the initiative to form the other connections.
• The progression from nothing to Torque employee is proof that the school was a success for me

Bad:
Cost
The cost of the school is EXTREMELY high. In addition to the cost of classes, I was forced to take out a lot of $$$ for living expense checks. Why? Because 8 hour classes for 6 days a week does not leave time for a job. I suggest you save some money or have a financial backer while you attend.

Student Loans
Worried about student loans with other schools? Then be prepared for a shock if you were to attend Full Sail. I knew nothing about student loans before I attended, so I trusted their financial aid department with my future. Little did I know that Sallie Mae has a record of paying schools to be the preferred lender.

I signed up for what was heavily suggested (actually, only suggested), and I now regret that decision. 80% of my loans are private, 20% Federal. You want my honest and brutal opinion? Full Sail is not the scam, Sallie Mae is. I cannot consolidate my loans with Sallie Mae (they suspended that offer when I needed it the most), nor with anyone else because no one wants to touch a loan that high. My interest is in the high teens, and overall my monthly payment is a house payment...literally, I'm talking $800+. I'm pretty much in debt for the rest of my life.

The Hours
Some loved it, some hated it, and some burned out because of it. The schedule at Full Sail is BRUTAL. Yes, it is an accelerated program. Sure, it might prepare you for real world conditions. Regardless, you are going to be pushed to the mental and physical limits. Everyone did. More than once I would not sleep for 24-48 hours because of the class (4 hours), lab (another 4 hours), and then studying for a final exam the next day.

The Assumption
You go in thinking you just need to complete the program and FS will put you in a job. If that's how FS spins it now, then I can see why they might get criticized. However, if you hold on to that mentality you are at fault. Go in, take the classes, pass the tests, and finish your final project. In between all that, learn other languages, other skills, and meet other people at conferences. You get what you put in, and you are going to have to put in some extra effort to really graduate as a well rounded developer. No getting around this, sorry. FS will not teach you everything and is not guaranteed to help you find a job.

Those are some pretty big Pros and Cons. It's very easy how they can solidify your attendance, or scare you away. My conclusion in the next post:

(continued in next post)

#16 Conclusion
Was it worth it? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Wife, best friend, amazing contact network, and dream job. Do I regret the decision? No. I know my life would be totally different and there is a good chance I would probably be working in the computer repair industry. Good industry, but not my dream.

Do I regret the cost and financial aid? Cost, no. Financial aid, yes. Sallie Mae harasses me and my family. They will not work with me, and I cannot receive any help from any establishment because of the private loans. I would be very happy to see them shut down. I should have done my research, saved money, and tried harder to final alternative lenders.

The big HOWEVER: It's not all about the money. Despite my debt, my wife married me. Despite the cost, I took a pay cut when I left the simulation job to work at GarageGames. If I had to do it all over again, I would without hesitation. I know not every graduate has been as lucky as myself, though they worked as hard. That's just how it goes. I know graduates from other schools that aren't in the industry, so it's not just Full Sail.

Take my opinion and story however you want. It's just one story. My closest network of friends and peers have jobs in the industry right now, or on the verge of getting them.

Fun Facts:
- The head of Torque was an instructor at Full Sail, and department chair
- The head of QA for Torque is a FS graduate
- The head of documentation and iTorque is a FS graduate
- The new QA lab for Torque is on Full Sail's campus
- I have five+ resumes permanently stored on my computers that belong to FS grads, who I will personally vouch for and recommend for positions at Torque or any other company.

Super information overload, I know. But I feel like you should hear the bold truth, good and bad, from someone who walked the path. Sorry for the long read, but I hope it helps.

#17 Damn good post Michael. Sure to help someone, maybe many.

#18 Well it seems I have more thinking to do then. My fears are the cost and not being able to get the financial aid, the quality of education which I need to talk to them more and get a final course breakdown of classes. I want to do this fully online if possible, we live 2 hours from Orlando but I don't know if we can afford to move there and I really do need to work while going to school. That's another reason I was looking closely at DeVry, the hours would allow me to work and attend classes.

While I 100% appreciate this post, it's got me even deeper in my workload on finding the perfect education for myself, and I believe that's a good thing. I'm sitting here playing Red Dead Redemption towards the end (buying some cattle) with my son attempting to talk, I wish it was not a holiday so I could speak with Full Sail and really get a breakdown on cost and classes.

Thanks again Michael, you've given me a LOT to think about and every thought counts.

Anyone here graduate from DeVry know anything? I'd love to hear from more people on education, not just rumors or hearsay.

Happy Memorial Day.

#19 Christopher - Definitely think it through. Regardless of the school, higher education is expensive, taxing, and stressful. I don't think there is a perfect education path. You will encounter good and bad. If you have more specific questions or want to get a direct contact at Full Sail, feel free to e-mail me: michaelp@torquepowered.com.

Btw, where in Florida are you?

#20 I'm about an hour north of Tampa in Hudson/New Port Richey.

Doing school online is easier since I'm also a stay at home father atm, my wife's career at Chase bank makes a ton more money than I did in sales.

I'm going to call Kevin Barrett back tomorrow at Full Sail, I spent a while talking with my wife today about your posts and a buddy who finished Full Sail on campus and is a totally different field of work. Today I relax, tomorrow I go back to weighing pros/cons and talking with both schools, praying I can get enough financial aid with my lousy credit and no co-signer lol.