Torque X 3D Pro Only Has 2D Tutorials!?

#1 I'd like to know this as well.

I did find this, but nothing else...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zMss65_7vQ

#2 I'm wondering the same thing, hope we aren't expected to go buy that book if we want documentation cause that would be a bit silly. I'm not impressed so far, especially compared to how great my experience was learning to use TGB with the documentation it had.

#3 The cycle to update Torque X documentation was very short, unfortunately. The engine will receive updated documentation, but it is in a queue.

Honestly, with or without more documentation, the book is a must-read. John K, the Torque X developer, wrote that from scratch and it is an amazing source of information.

When new docs go up, I will be posting in this thread: Documentation Feedback Thread.

I also usually write an end of the month blog discussing released docs, but the past 2 months have been very hectic.

#4 I am disturbed by your news, Michael. Since Garage Games couldn't ship TX3D with the docs in place, and there is no timeline for getting the updated docs, we TX3D owners are kind of left in the lurch.

Multiple GG parties have strongly suggested John K.'s ( $59 )book. I will point out that buying the book to get docs adds over 23% to the cost of the engine.

My modest proposal would be for GG to work a deal with John K. to offer 1 copy of his book for 'cost' + shipping to registered owners of TX3D. This would seem to be a fair balance between keeping loyal customers happy, and not incurring a financial loss for GG.

Other people's thoughts and opinions on this?

#5 @Kyle - I'm all about giving the best value to community members, including free stuff. However, that book is a source of income for John.

I borrowed some information from the book, and will probably do so again so long as I do not destroy the purpose of purchasing it.

The main problem, which cannot currently be helped, is that there is one person writing documentation for all the engines. With the exception of TGE, every single one has seen at least 1 update in the past 8 months. Some have experienced 2 or 3.

I can only afford to write documentation during the major dev cycle of each engine, and when that time runs out I have to turn to the lead devs and managers on how to proceed.

Torque X's docs were in shambles. The information that was available was good, but it needed to be organized and updated for the release. I accomplished that and had to pause content creation to tackle the other engines.

I will circle back to TX2D and TX3D docs, it just will not happen until some time after Torque 3D.

#6 Wow. That's a lot of excuses. All I see as a customer is a product with little or no instruction manual.

#7 Kyle,

While you are right it adds 23% to your investment, all things considered the whole package is still a very small price. An engine of this caliber on commercial scale would normally go for a lot more.

I'm not a GG employee or anything, I'm just pointing out the fact that it is all still a VERY small price to pay for something with so much promise. And for a very long time to come you can build things with it..

John's book is a great buy and really is all you'll need to get familiar with how to figure things out on your own going forward.

#8 You say excuses, I say explanation. Until the next documentation iteration comes out, you can purchase the book or rely completely on the available documentation and source code comments.

Good luck and subscribe to the feedback thread for further updates.

#9 John K is a big contributor to this particular community. His book should be considered the official documentation if you ask me. From there you can participate and ask questions here.

GG has a ton of stuff they are trying to work on (thank god they finally got TX3D out) and they are a business trying to make it like any other. If it were my business I'd put the docs on the back burner as well considering there is very excellent documentation written by a 3rd party.

It's honestly amazing that indie devs can now build a 3D title rapidly in a very simple language and publish the title to millions of people and make money on it.

all for 250 + 60 for some documentation.

We are officially in the future.

#10 @Michael - Thank you for the explanation. I can't say that I am not disappointed by the situation, but it would be worse if you had not stepped up to explain things so quickly.

@Brandon - $59 for something that was promised [ "Torque licensees join the 110,000 user GarageGames developer community and have access to an enormous set of valuable community resources. There are dozens of tutorials and a wealth of learning materials available on the site." ] during the pre-order is a bit much to swallow. It would have been different if purchasers were warned ahead of time that there was an extra cost for those "dozens of tutorials".

In any case, we have to deal with the situation as it is. Since Borders has dropped John K's book, I can only hope a Barnes-and-Noble has a copy I can take a look at before if I decide if it is worth my while.


I do want to step up onto my soapbox for a moment and air a belief I have. Documentation is functionally equivalent to QA'ing code, and developmentally equivalent to writing code.

Functionally because it effectively 'tests' the reality of the product, and there will be a give (usually) and take (very rarely) between modifying the docs to reflect reality and changing the product to be more usable. Since docs are usually an under-resourced afterthought in software projects, it is much easier to change a few lines of prose than to change a few lines of code.

Developmentally because it is written as an art toward an engineering purpose ( just like practical coding ), is aimed at a moving target ( if the docs are to be out simultaneous with the product, then probably all of the docs sections will have been written while looking at various alpha/beta versions of the product ), needs source control ( for all of the same reasons code does or does not ), and it needs to work well enough to get the job done but cannot be held back long enough to be perfect when the docs themselves are not mission critical.

So, I think the docs specialist should be right there alongside the GUI, Core, Web, etc. specialists, as another member of the development team from the spec/design stage through sign-off.

Stepping off soapbox now.

#11 And here I was thinking http://docs.garagegames.com/torquex/official/ was the documentation that the previous versions of TX never had. Am I wrong? these docs seems comprehensive compared to the previous versions.

#12 Compare the directories for TorqueX 2D and 3D, 3D is missing "Concepts" and "Tutorials". The shortage of documentation means my ramp-up time will be longer.

#13 You can call it explanation if you want to. You're the one trying to sell your product.

Maybe little to no included documentation is a good business decision. If so, I stand corrected.

#14 An engine without documentation is not an engine.

#15 Not really. An engine without documentation is just an engine where the source code becomes the documentation means; and that can definitely be largely unfriendly to developers who are trying to grok what is going on.

We are working hard on documentation and tutorials for our products but we're not where we want to be yet.

#16 @Dave

Not trying to flam your engine here. From what I have seen there is tons of potential in Torque. Just making the point that alot of engines out there are poorly documented. As a developer, I have seen alot of engines where the documentation is non existent. If when I hover over an object in Vstudio I see a tool tip popup describing the object, thats good enough for me. Without tool tips or solid documentation it takes lots of time to learn a new engine.

Now if the features are worth the time to dig in and learn the engine, I will settle for poor documentation. In my experience though, poorly documented engines also have poor demos which prevent me from being able to judge if learning the engine is worth my time. If you have solid demos, than the lack of documentation probably wouldn't bother people as much.

#17 I didn't take it as a flame. I just did not agree that an engine without documentation is not an engine. It definitely makes learning the engine much more difficult and is a key reason that Mich is working so hard on the documentation sets; but it is difficult to be in many places at once. I also agree that we should have a strong set of demos for our engines; and that is definitely a track that we're taking with Torque 3D. I would like to see it extended to all of our engines since they go a long way to letting people play in the engine and see what it is capable of as informed consumers. It takes time and money to generate art assets and stunning demos, too so it takes a lot of management to make sure that teams are working efficiently.

#18 It seems to me documentation is necessary for a retail product. A car comes with a handbook; even the last circular saw I bought had a pamphlet to make sure I didn't take a bath with it plugged in, and knew that it could cut me. A quality company understands that customer satisfaction determines the overall brand value it creates.

Satisfaction for a game engine is more than the inclusion of the latest acronyms – In the end these products are directed toward a marketplace of people who intend to develop their personal visions. You frustrate your clients when you say “Here’s a bag of stuff have at it!”

If your documentation department is overwhelmed by your developmental output then scale the documentation department up! It seems like you have a 12 month development cycle, and a 2 year documentation cycle. Come on guys! Documentation is not a cost center; it is one of the ways you deliver on your product’s promise. Tell you what – Offer the product two ways, with two different pricing options – Engine only and engine with documentation. Let the documentation department have its own P&L, and give them the goal of becoming a revenue center. I doubt you will sell many undocumented engines.

#19 I just think it's bad business sense not to have documentation with a product, especially one that requires the customer to understand how the developer was thinking in order to use the product. Relying on 3rd parties to make your documentation is almost as bad. At least there is some, but boy does it take ones opinion of that company down a lot.

Myself, I've spent a week messing with Torque X 3D, and I've got nowhere. I've got no replies to my issues with the software or offers of assistance, from anyone, let alone GG. I was seriously thinking about purchasing, but I dunno, I know as soon as I get to something I don't understand about the inner workings of the engine, I know I'm not going to get any help, I'm better off struggling with my own engine. It wont do even 5% of the things Torque does, but at least I'll know how to use it.

Yes GG's docs are better than they were 5 years ago, and obviously GG is not suffering as a result of not having comprehensive docs, but they're not the only ones out there with an engine and no docs.

#20

Quote:If your documentation department is overwhelmed by your developmental output then scale the documentation department up!

You have no idea how much I would love to have a team of doc writers working under me. Hell, if I had just 1 extra person the output of new docs for the engines would grow exponentially.

There's just no budget for it right now. They were lucky to find one lunatic at GDC to get excited to write this stuff, and made room in the budget to squeeze me in.

The docs will get there, and I know it will not be soon enough, but I'll do my best.

One thing I will not agree on, however, is a separate charge for official docs. No way...free docs, publicly available, updated whenever possible.