Torque 3d whats the point.
by Morrie · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 04/22/2009 (1:37 pm) · 41 replies
The reason I say this is it seams every couple of years GG puts out a new engine instead of making the previous engine better. I would like to see some of the things from T3D in TGEA. TGEA is a good engine, but I was hoping it would be as good as the UT3 engine, because there was potential for it.
GG is a good company, but I really disappointed and it seems like all the Focus has moved to T3d and development has stopped or been put hold for TGEA.
I own TGE, TGEA, and several tools and packs from GG. Does anyone know if development for TGEA is done at 1.8.1 or if there will be more updates. I don't want to spend $500 to $700 to upgrade another engine it just doesn't make any sense.
GG is a good company, but I really disappointed and it seems like all the Focus has moved to T3d and development has stopped or been put hold for TGEA.
I own TGE, TGEA, and several tools and packs from GG. Does anyone know if development for TGEA is done at 1.8.1 or if there will be more updates. I don't want to spend $500 to $700 to upgrade another engine it just doesn't make any sense.
About the author
#22
Then, Jeremiah, you are free to use TGEA and upgrade the portions of it that you want to.
The fact is that "a large part" of the new features of T3D are not community resources. Yes there are some, take the PhysX addition, for example. But things like Post Processing Effects, new GFX layer, Physics Plugin, Web Deployment, etc, were never resources.
04/23/2009 (6:34 pm)
Quote:As for all of these new features, the fact is a large part of them we're started as community resources and some have been "in process" for a long time, and were slated to be in TGEA but obviously weren't.
Then, Jeremiah, you are free to use TGEA and upgrade the portions of it that you want to.
The fact is that "a large part" of the new features of T3D are not community resources. Yes there are some, take the PhysX addition, for example. But things like Post Processing Effects, new GFX layer, Physics Plugin, Web Deployment, etc, were never resources.
#23
I think GG was mistaken on the features they are promoting more heavily. They should have focused more on the new lighting engine, people keep forgetting about it and underplaying how much work one would need to do it from the ground up.
04/24/2009 (10:35 am)
@Phillip: one could say the Web Deployment was a community resource too.I think GG was mistaken on the features they are promoting more heavily. They should have focused more on the new lighting engine, people keep forgetting about it and underplaying how much work one would need to do it from the ground up.
#24
I also agree that TGEA shouldn't get completely ignored and there are a lot of things that need to be fixed, but I feel that once T3D is finished they will backport some of the bug fixes and haven't completely ignored TGEA, just put it on hold. In a way working on T3D I am sure they are partially working on TGEA bug fixes since they will backports stuff. They just need to put their resources together to release an engine with new features like collada support and the lighting system that will make a fully featured engine. Just think of any project you have been on where you need to release something by a date so you work your but off pulling hours to work on it and then go back to the old stuff.
Also keep in mind TGEA has a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouth (not mine, but I know others who won't touch it), so renaming it T3D rather than release a TGEA 2.0 with an upgrade price is a good idea.
Also as many people have said there are a good amount of features in T3D and yes some you may not need in which case stick with TGEA. And those features take time and money to develop so I feel the price is fair (especially the lighting system) as well has how many people are working on it (large group now) to release it in a timely manner which also takes money. and considering that 500 is like half the price of T3D the upgrade price seems fair to me.
My key point is don't loose faith I know many people feel let down by TGEA and feel like GG has abandoned them, but don't I am sure they will have a TGEA update for bug fixes and if T3D is everything they are saying it is (from the vids it looks like it is) then I am sure it will be the last engine release they will need to do for a while. In which case they will work on a TGEA update and T3D updates and possibly some games to make them some cash.
After all they don't just want to work on engines they just want to address peoples issues with TGEA and they are doing that (or at least that is my take) and then work on stuff that (lets admit) will make more money (money put in vs money earned) like a game (like marble blast) while just maintaining the engine (rather than working on a new one).
Also many of you are referencing UE3 it is way more expensive than T3D and has more tools and some more features as well as missing some, but lets keep in mind the anger people had/have towards it. They had a lawsuit because of some of the issues in UE3 and after having friends I know work with it as well as working on an UT3 mod it definitely isn't without its big issues.
04/24/2009 (1:27 pm)
I agree the new lighting engine is one of the biggest things and they need to talk about it more.I also agree that TGEA shouldn't get completely ignored and there are a lot of things that need to be fixed, but I feel that once T3D is finished they will backport some of the bug fixes and haven't completely ignored TGEA, just put it on hold. In a way working on T3D I am sure they are partially working on TGEA bug fixes since they will backports stuff. They just need to put their resources together to release an engine with new features like collada support and the lighting system that will make a fully featured engine. Just think of any project you have been on where you need to release something by a date so you work your but off pulling hours to work on it and then go back to the old stuff.
Also keep in mind TGEA has a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouth (not mine, but I know others who won't touch it), so renaming it T3D rather than release a TGEA 2.0 with an upgrade price is a good idea.
Also as many people have said there are a good amount of features in T3D and yes some you may not need in which case stick with TGEA. And those features take time and money to develop so I feel the price is fair (especially the lighting system) as well has how many people are working on it (large group now) to release it in a timely manner which also takes money. and considering that 500 is like half the price of T3D the upgrade price seems fair to me.
My key point is don't loose faith I know many people feel let down by TGEA and feel like GG has abandoned them, but don't I am sure they will have a TGEA update for bug fixes and if T3D is everything they are saying it is (from the vids it looks like it is) then I am sure it will be the last engine release they will need to do for a while. In which case they will work on a TGEA update and T3D updates and possibly some games to make them some cash.
After all they don't just want to work on engines they just want to address peoples issues with TGEA and they are doing that (or at least that is my take) and then work on stuff that (lets admit) will make more money (money put in vs money earned) like a game (like marble blast) while just maintaining the engine (rather than working on a new one).
Also many of you are referencing UE3 it is way more expensive than T3D and has more tools and some more features as well as missing some, but lets keep in mind the anger people had/have towards it. They had a lawsuit because of some of the issues in UE3 and after having friends I know work with it as well as working on an UT3 mod it definitely isn't without its big issues.
#25
Yea and upgrade costs suck... i'm not a fan... but as an owner of TGEA since 2004 when it first came out... i think i got my monies worth from the 5 years i've had it.
You see.... TGEA will be sad that when she moved on to her new life in Torque 3D you abandoned her. Your making her cry... so sad... she will miss you! ;)
04/24/2009 (1:49 pm)
The fundamental misunderstanding is this idea that TGEA is no longer being developed.... it is.... Torque 3D *is* TGEA 2.0. It has a new name and there is an upgrade cost to it... but it is the next version of TGEA.Yea and upgrade costs suck... i'm not a fan... but as an owner of TGEA since 2004 when it first came out... i think i got my monies worth from the 5 years i've had it.
You see.... TGEA will be sad that when she moved on to her new life in Torque 3D you abandoned her. Your making her cry... so sad... she will miss you! ;)
#26
04/24/2009 (2:08 pm)
The license changes are one reason TGEA will stick around for quite a while (with no new features, but at least support and bugfixes), just like the multiplatform support kept TGE around. 
#27
04/24/2009 (2:34 pm)
@Manoel - Which license changes are you referring to?
#28
04/27/2009 (12:19 pm)
@Michael: I meant the fact that T3D's license tiers were upped a notch: the pro T3D is equivalent to the indie TGEA (same budget and logo restrictions), there's a new upper tier (Studio) and there's no longer a free lower tier (so you'll need editor sub-licenses for team members using the editors). So TGEA remains more flexible, license wise, but having less modern features.
#29
I am not sure what to think anymore & the more I try to analyze this ..the more brain cells 'pop'. :P
Anyways, Manoel, I can understand your gripe to an extent, but the reality is that life progresses...as does this sdk/engine. ..and no matter the plethora of ways that this engine can be explained-in-marketing-terms or by any other form of explanation, products cost money.
Getting close to 'the cutting edge' on anything, costs. Do you want to be that much closer to the cutting edge of realtime 3d, or hang a little further behind with TGEA ? The choice is yours and your mother will not like you any less because of this. :P
[/out]
04/27/2009 (12:52 pm)
I was going to post against Manoel's POV but then I thought...hmm, it's TGEA 2.0 but it's not, it is T3D. ..and it is obviously T3D and not really TGEA2.0 because of the licensing structure change. The licensing structure changes cause the entity to become an entirely different animal. However, in theoretical thought, it is TGEA 2.0.I am not sure what to think anymore & the more I try to analyze this ..the more brain cells 'pop'. :P
Anyways, Manoel, I can understand your gripe to an extent, but the reality is that life progresses...as does this sdk/engine. ..and no matter the plethora of ways that this engine can be explained-in-marketing-terms or by any other form of explanation, products cost money.
Getting close to 'the cutting edge' on anything, costs. Do you want to be that much closer to the cutting edge of realtime 3d, or hang a little further behind with TGEA ? The choice is yours and your mother will not like you any less because of this. :P
[/out]
#30
Yeah yeah, that's what we were told when TGEA was in "beta", too. It took quite a while to reach "cutting edge" and when we finally were there, it was no longer cutting edge because 3 or so years had passed. Now that's again up to personal definition, what cutting edge is and all that, but that's my idea of the situation.
Atlas and MegaTerrain and the tech shift that happened is a perfect example of that.
04/28/2009 (5:24 am)
Personally, I look at T3D as a seperate product, not an upgrade. That's because of the pricing change, that I do not disagree with mind you, but I've yet to find an upgrade for my other software that increased the price with 900% from the core products price. YMMV.Quote:
Getting close to 'the cutting edge' on anything, costs.
Yeah yeah, that's what we were told when TGEA was in "beta", too. It took quite a while to reach "cutting edge" and when we finally were there, it was no longer cutting edge because 3 or so years had passed. Now that's again up to personal definition, what cutting edge is and all that, but that's my idea of the situation.
Atlas and MegaTerrain and the tech shift that happened is a perfect example of that.
#31
Not sure where you get 900% from, but how many products will give you a discount of the full price of what you paid for a previous product, when it's a separate product?
There's a big difference between retail software, and middleware. Even the high-end middleware that already costs many thousands of dollars occasionally drastically increase their prices. It's the reality of the type of product and user base size. Increased R&D costs to stay with or ahead of the market (or to catch up in the case of GG) can't be smoothed out over hundreds of thousands or millions of users.
04/28/2009 (7:55 am)
Quote:
Personally, I look at T3D as a seperate product, not an upgrade. That's because of the pricing change, that I do not disagree with mind you, but I've yet to find an upgrade for my other software that increased the price with 900% from the core products price. YMMV.
Not sure where you get 900% from, but how many products will give you a discount of the full price of what you paid for a previous product, when it's a separate product?
There's a big difference between retail software, and middleware. Even the high-end middleware that already costs many thousands of dollars occasionally drastically increase their prices. It's the reality of the type of product and user base size. Increased R&D costs to stay with or ahead of the market (or to catch up in the case of GG) can't be smoothed out over hundreds of thousands or millions of users.
#32
You're right, it's "only" ~350%. From $295 to $1000. I was thinking of the original TGE price.
Fair enough and good point.
04/28/2009 (10:11 am)
Quote:
Not sure where you get 900% from
You're right, it's "only" ~350%. From $295 to $1000. I was thinking of the original TGE price.
Quote:... but how many products will give you a discount of the full price of what you paid for a previous product, when it's a separate product?
Fair enough and good point.
#33
But since GG doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's not viable to up he feature set and keep the same price, neither change TGEA's price, so T3D was born.
BTW, I'm getting mine as soon as the beta comes out. I'm eager to see the material and datablock editors and mess with the lighting stuff.
04/28/2009 (10:15 am)
I was in no way complaining about T3D. It is a different product, and rightfully so. One could see it as TGEA 2.0, but even it it were it would never be a free upgrade with so many new features. Adobe rolls out brand new Photoshop versions with much less. But since GG doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's not viable to up he feature set and keep the same price, neither change TGEA's price, so T3D was born.
BTW, I'm getting mine as soon as the beta comes out. I'm eager to see the material and datablock editors and mess with the lighting stuff.
#34
04/28/2009 (2:05 pm)
@Manoel, I didn't mean to make you think I was saying you were complaining. I used "gripe" as a loose term. I suppose I should have chosen a better term. !my bad!
#35
That's only if you don't already own TGEA, which isn't an upgrade. The upgrade is a little more than double the original price, unless you pre-order in which case it's about 70% more. Still a considerable leap, but not unheard of.
As a practical matter it's really more than that though, at least for me. Assuming the new editors are actually worth using, my artists will now need a Basic license too. But I've always felt that the Torque prices were unrealistic and unsustainable, so I won't mind paying the price when it's time to upgrade. T3D will still be, by far, the cheapest commercial license I own for any development package (other than TGEA). The only thing close is an XML processing library that cost twice as much as T3D... it's a very nice library with some nice visualization tools, but still all it does is process XML.. compared to a complete game engine.
At least I'll be able to feel more confident that the company will still be around in a few years and I won't be stuck with a codebase built around a defunct product line.
04/29/2009 (12:14 am)
Quote:
You're right, it's "only" ~350%.
That's only if you don't already own TGEA, which isn't an upgrade. The upgrade is a little more than double the original price, unless you pre-order in which case it's about 70% more. Still a considerable leap, but not unheard of.
As a practical matter it's really more than that though, at least for me. Assuming the new editors are actually worth using, my artists will now need a Basic license too. But I've always felt that the Torque prices were unrealistic and unsustainable, so I won't mind paying the price when it's time to upgrade. T3D will still be, by far, the cheapest commercial license I own for any development package (other than TGEA). The only thing close is an XML processing library that cost twice as much as T3D... it's a very nice library with some nice visualization tools, but still all it does is process XML.. compared to a complete game engine.
At least I'll be able to feel more confident that the company will still be around in a few years and I won't be stuck with a codebase built around a defunct product line.
#36
04/29/2009 (3:18 am)
If the price to upgrade is a concern, then make a game with TGEA and buy T3D with the profits. That is what I am attempting to do. The real challenge, however, is completing that game, and making enough profits before the pre-order ends. ;) But man, oh man, PrototypeB is gonna be sweet in T3D!
#37
As far as I understood, upgrading from TGEA to T3D costs $1000. You can't say it costs $500 because of the preorder. It's only (AFAIK) valid for a limited time and I personally can't afford to purchase right now as I'm saving up. I know of a few others that are in the same boat, too.
If that's not the case, then I apologize. But I can't find the prices you're talking about.
04/29/2009 (5:56 am)
Quote:
That's only if you don't already own TGEA, which isn't an upgrade. The upgrade is a little more than double the original price, unless you pre-order in which case it's about 70% more. Still a considerable leap, but not unheard of.
As far as I understood, upgrading from TGEA to T3D costs $1000. You can't say it costs $500 because of the preorder. It's only (AFAIK) valid for a limited time and I personally can't afford to purchase right now as I'm saving up. I know of a few others that are in the same boat, too.
If that's not the case, then I apologize. But I can't find the prices you're talking about.
#39
I believe it is $700 for owners of TGEA, and $500 with the $200 pre-order discount+TGEA according to this blog: www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/16727
Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
@Michael - Thanks! I had hoped to get a beta going a long time ago, but the game has been through many iterations and has changed quite a bit from my original design. Now with T3D on the horizon I would really like to get it ported before I release anything.
04/29/2009 (6:24 am)
Quote:As far as I understood, upgrading from TGEA to T3D costs $1000. You can't say it costs $500 because of the preorder. It's only (AFAIK) valid for a limited time and I personally can't afford to purchase right now as I'm saving up. I know of a few others that are in the same boat, too.
I believe it is $700 for owners of TGEA, and $500 with the $200 pre-order discount+TGEA according to this blog: www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/16727
Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
@Michael - Thanks! I had hoped to get a beta going a long time ago, but the game has been through many iterations and has changed quite a bit from my original design. Now with T3D on the horizon I would really like to get it ported before I release anything.
#40
04/29/2009 (10:08 am)
@firevein: PrototypeB is looking nice indeed. Releasing a game to help finance a Torque 3d if a very worthy goal. How close do you think you are?
Torque Owner Jeremiah Fulbright
I would have much rather have seen alot of the things added kept in the community where they would be much more accessible, instead of being gobbled up by GG and getting a hefty price tag tacked on to them. I would rather support the individual resource that I may or may not use, not an entire pile of them that may never be of use.