Torque3D and Torque360 for XBOX 360 development
by Ismail Said · in General Discussion · 04/09/2009 (9:14 pm) · 7 replies
This may have been covered already, but I am really interested in making games for XBOX 360. Torque X 3D is still in a pre-order state, and I'm fine with that, but I really want to start prototyping ideas to pitch to Microsoft and am not as interested in the Community Games (even though I'll compete in Dream Build Play). From my understanding Torque360 is only available to approved XBOX developers already and is based on TGEA.
Will Torque3D be a viable option for prototyping games to pitch to Microsoft and if approved transition to Torque360, or will that engine stay behind? It looks like people have written their own DxInputs for the XBOX controller, and I assume with some finagling that the same will apply for Torque3D. I'm basically looking for the best way to pitch ideas to develop. Should I just get TGEA now and not rush into Torque3D. It looks really exciting and the first releases will be available soon to those that pre-order.
Will Torque3D be a viable option for prototyping games to pitch to Microsoft and if approved transition to Torque360, or will that engine stay behind? It looks like people have written their own DxInputs for the XBOX controller, and I assume with some finagling that the same will apply for Torque3D. I'm basically looking for the best way to pitch ideas to develop. Should I just get TGEA now and not rush into Torque3D. It looks really exciting and the first releases will be available soon to those that pre-order.
#2
To become a Microsoft Approved developer you have to have a proven track record creating games and it's going to cost you tens of thousands of dollars, if not into the hundreds of thousands to buy.
So I think you need to rethink your aims... Torque 360 and a full 360 retail is probably not an option for you and definately not if you're just learning game development.
If you still want to develop for the 360 then TorqueX and the XNA communtiy route is your best bet, you can still sell your game through the Live marketplace but just not ship a retail version.
Otherwise you can stick with TGEA/Torque 3D build your game for the PC and if it proves to be a hit selling on the pc then use that funding to talk with Microsoft & Garagegames about porting to the Xbox.
04/10/2009 (2:11 am)
No offence meant by this Ismail but you've put Novice 3D Artist, Novice Programmer and Novice Gamer on your profile which really isn't going to put you in the category of developer that Microsoft would consider. To quote from Microsofts website:Quote:Participation in the Xbox 360 Tools and Middleware Program is generally restricted to those companies with good industry references and with prior experience in the games tools and middleware technologies field. If you represent a startup company you may still be considered if the team is made up of experienced individuals, and/or you have sufficient industry interest in using your technology on our platform.
To become a Microsoft Approved developer you have to have a proven track record creating games and it's going to cost you tens of thousands of dollars, if not into the hundreds of thousands to buy.
So I think you need to rethink your aims... Torque 360 and a full 360 retail is probably not an option for you and definately not if you're just learning game development.
If you still want to develop for the 360 then TorqueX and the XNA communtiy route is your best bet, you can still sell your game through the Live marketplace but just not ship a retail version.
Otherwise you can stick with TGEA/Torque 3D build your game for the PC and if it proves to be a hit selling on the pc then use that funding to talk with Microsoft & Garagegames about porting to the Xbox.
#3
This does make me think though that I guess prototypes and experiments can be done on any system then if approved you pay the money to go to the next level engines and re-write most of the game. I'm better at C# than C++, and why I was really excited about TX3D, but it looks like it's just not going to have the support as Torque3D as GG's flagship engine, and the Microsoft certification process is making many of us beyond anxious for TX3D's release.
Thanks again and see you around,
Ish
04/10/2009 (6:21 am)
No offense taken Andy, and I seriously appreciate you being blunt. People need to hear that every now and then. I do need to update my profile as I hadn't changed that since I was first introduced to Torque several years ago. My aim was for a XBLA or PSN game not a disc based game, but I acknowledge that even that applies to the criteria posted above but it's more feasible and has been done before. I'm actually a 3D graphics artist that has been slowly gaining more and more experience in the programming side of things. I've had some ideas pitched to XBLA and some they want prototypes for and others have been flat out rejected :). This does make me think though that I guess prototypes and experiments can be done on any system then if approved you pay the money to go to the next level engines and re-write most of the game. I'm better at C# than C++, and why I was really excited about TX3D, but it looks like it's just not going to have the support as Torque3D as GG's flagship engine, and the Microsoft certification process is making many of us beyond anxious for TX3D's release.
Thanks again and see you around,
Ish
#4
As far as your questions I would suggest this.
Andy is right about it being very expensive to become a Microsoft Certified developer. so i would suggest two routes.
A) Pitch to a publisher that is already an XBOX certified developer, it will make your life easier as far as getting your game on live. Rocketman (don't quote me on this one) was indie developed, but they went through Capcom for publishing and get T360 and are now up on XBLA.
B) Pitch directly to MGS, BUT if you read their website about pitching games, know that their interest generally lies in First Party games, meaning they own the IP.
Your best bet is probably to build your game under TGEA, now that it has OpenGL it should be feasable for you to pitch a game made on 1.8.1 as being 360 and PSN portable. And go from their, build it up as a PC game, and then port over at a later point. It will let you prototype much faster. And as far as controller support, I've worked with a couple of programmers who have 360 controllers running in their engines, its not a terribly hard process if that is what you are worried about. There is already a TGE resource for it, and I believe some people are trying to port that over to TGEA.
Hope that helps!
@Andy: Thats not really true (the part about Torque x), the EULA for Torque X does NOT allow you to release on XBLA only as a PC release or as a Community game. So if Ismail wants an XBLA game (since he said he isn't interested in a CC game, only XBLA and PSN), that is not the right engine to go with.
Quote from the TX3D EULA:
Thats why the 4 XBLA arcade Torque based games (even Screw Jumper and Rocketman, both XBLA titles) used Torque 360.
04/10/2009 (10:22 am)
@Ismail: Hey thought I could help you out, I sorta know what you are going through. I have a meeting with Microsoft Game Studios on Wednesday (can't really say anything else about it cause I'm under an NDA).As far as your questions I would suggest this.
Andy is right about it being very expensive to become a Microsoft Certified developer. so i would suggest two routes.
A) Pitch to a publisher that is already an XBOX certified developer, it will make your life easier as far as getting your game on live. Rocketman (don't quote me on this one) was indie developed, but they went through Capcom for publishing and get T360 and are now up on XBLA.
B) Pitch directly to MGS, BUT if you read their website about pitching games, know that their interest generally lies in First Party games, meaning they own the IP.
Your best bet is probably to build your game under TGEA, now that it has OpenGL it should be feasable for you to pitch a game made on 1.8.1 as being 360 and PSN portable. And go from their, build it up as a PC game, and then port over at a later point. It will let you prototype much faster. And as far as controller support, I've worked with a couple of programmers who have 360 controllers running in their engines, its not a terribly hard process if that is what you are worried about. There is already a TGE resource for it, and I believe some people are trying to port that over to TGEA.
Hope that helps!
@Andy: Thats not really true (the part about Torque x), the EULA for Torque X does NOT allow you to release on XBLA only as a PC release or as a Community game. So if Ismail wants an XBLA game (since he said he isn't interested in a CC game, only XBLA and PSN), that is not the right engine to go with.
Quote from the TX3D EULA:
Quote:(h) Licensee may not release Games intended for operation on Game Console Systems including the Sony Playstation 2, Sony Playstation 3, Sony PSP, Nintendo GameCube, Nintendo DS, Microsoft Xbox, Microsoft Xbox 360 (disc or Xbox LIVE Arcade) and Nintendo Wii or any successors or future console platforms. Licensee may only release Games intended for operation on the Microsoft Xbox 360 XNA Community Games Channel and Microsoft Windows operating system.
Thats why the 4 XBLA arcade Torque based games (even Screw Jumper and Rocketman, both XBLA titles) used Torque 360.
#5
@Stephen - hmm didn't know that about the EULA's, although I remember reading John Kanalakis' blog which is what gave me the thought that you could sell - he's using TorqueX although perhaps he's gotten approval from GG to release on XBLA
04/10/2009 (1:11 pm)
Ahh Ish well with some knowledge then I'd say go for it as Stephen suggests there's always talking to some publishers.. I've always found a working prototype goes a long way though.@Stephen - hmm didn't know that about the EULA's, although I remember reading John Kanalakis' blog which is what gave me the thought that you could sell - he's using TorqueX although perhaps he's gotten approval from GG to release on XBLA
#6
So it is a released game that you can get to ON live, but its not in the Arcade, its in its own Community Games area.
Youc an check it out here: marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/games/media/66acd000-77fe-1000-9115-d8025855015d/
04/10/2009 (2:05 pm)
@ Andy: Its actually a Community Game, thats how you get numbers so quickly back from Microsoft on sales.Quote:Microsoft is now releasing sales data to creators of Xbox Live Community Games. For those completely new to this concept, you can freely download XNA and Visual C# Express and the get the Torque X Game Engine to create a game for the Xbox 360. With a XNA Creator's Club membership, you deploy your game to your Xbox 360. Then, after some play testing and peer review, you can publish your game to the Xbox Community Games Marketplace, with exposure to the millions of Xbox Live Gold Subscribers.
So it is a released game that you can get to ON live, but its not in the Arcade, its in its own Community Games area.
Youc an check it out here: marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/games/media/66acd000-77fe-1000-9115-d8025855015d/
#7
04/10/2009 (2:43 pm)
Ahhh that explains it thanks for the info Stephen
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