Creative Give and Take, Multiple Project Juggling
by James Margaris · in General Discussion · 01/17/2003 (1:23 am) · 10 replies
I was going to put this in a .plan of mine, but for some reason I don't like writing plans.
There are two negative trends I want to identify briefly.
1: The idea that indie game creation amounts to "now I can make the game I've always wanted to make!" This is how a lot of people think, and is a (maybe the) major reason so many projects are started but so few are finished. The thinking is why join a project when you can start your own and do exactly what you want to do? Of course the problem is teams of one can't get much done. The smaller the team often the less they can do and the more sensitve they are to turnover. One member leaves and the project dies.
Indie game making is creative freedom, but that should be balanced against the chance of creating a decent, polished project. I would encourage everyone who visits the site to strongly consider joining existing projects rather than starting their own.
As a shameless plug for Realm Wars, let me state that when I first visited GG my initial plan was to work on a mech game similar to Virtua On. But it occurred to me that while Realm Wars wasn't exactly what I wanted to do, a game that makes steady progress is better than a game that will surely die in a few months.
You have to trade a bit of creative control when you join another team, but that is the cost of working in an actual team. The upside is it increases your chances of producing something worthwhile, which is a pretty nice upside.
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2: (Okay, I lied about the being brief part) I also see a lot of people who are working on multiple projects. That makes sense for something like Realm Wars where we welcome one-shot contributions, but I don't see how people could can work on multiple projects on a persistent basis. I know the saying is don't put all your eggs in one basket, but one completed project is a lot better than 2 half-finished projects. Sometimes you have to just say no and focus on one task.
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I guess the reason I write this is that I see a lot of what is ultimately wasted effort by people who are really talented. The talent is here to produce some great games, but it seems to be spread thin with everyone doing their own thing. There are a number of great looking projects floating around on GG, it seems that people joining those existing efforts would ultimately have a more rewarding experience than if they forged ahead on their own.
There are two negative trends I want to identify briefly.
1: The idea that indie game creation amounts to "now I can make the game I've always wanted to make!" This is how a lot of people think, and is a (maybe the) major reason so many projects are started but so few are finished. The thinking is why join a project when you can start your own and do exactly what you want to do? Of course the problem is teams of one can't get much done. The smaller the team often the less they can do and the more sensitve they are to turnover. One member leaves and the project dies.
Indie game making is creative freedom, but that should be balanced against the chance of creating a decent, polished project. I would encourage everyone who visits the site to strongly consider joining existing projects rather than starting their own.
As a shameless plug for Realm Wars, let me state that when I first visited GG my initial plan was to work on a mech game similar to Virtua On. But it occurred to me that while Realm Wars wasn't exactly what I wanted to do, a game that makes steady progress is better than a game that will surely die in a few months.
You have to trade a bit of creative control when you join another team, but that is the cost of working in an actual team. The upside is it increases your chances of producing something worthwhile, which is a pretty nice upside.
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2: (Okay, I lied about the being brief part) I also see a lot of people who are working on multiple projects. That makes sense for something like Realm Wars where we welcome one-shot contributions, but I don't see how people could can work on multiple projects on a persistent basis. I know the saying is don't put all your eggs in one basket, but one completed project is a lot better than 2 half-finished projects. Sometimes you have to just say no and focus on one task.
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I guess the reason I write this is that I see a lot of what is ultimately wasted effort by people who are really talented. The talent is here to produce some great games, but it seems to be spread thin with everyone doing their own thing. There are a number of great looking projects floating around on GG, it seems that people joining those existing efforts would ultimately have a more rewarding experience than if they forged ahead on their own.
About the author
#2
One problem is that there is an overwhelming number of projects. The 'A' section alone goes on for pages and pages. So finding a suitable project is like finding a needle in haystack.
I know a lot of people are not going to like the suggestion I am about to make, because it will strike them as elitist. But I would love to see an area that highlighted promising projects. A "promising project" would be a project that was making steady forward progress towards eventual publication. (Or some form of completion) If those projects were looking for help those would be projects people could join as "sure things," as sure as things get anyway. Or a less subjective method would be to rank projects by activity/popularity like sourceforge does.
I would guess that 99% of the projects listed in the project pages have been abandoned. It makes it impossible to find what you are looking for due to the volume, and if you do find what you are looking for the overwhelming odds are that the project has been dropped.
Many people have been burned by joining (or starting) projects that eventually went belly-up. I've done that myself a few times. If there was just *one* mech game, one futuristic space game, one turn based strategy game, one historical war game...a lot of people would be working on things that didn't exactly meet their deepest desires, but a lot more projects would be finished.
I am assuming of course that the existing team would be flexible with new members and take their input into consideration and let them shape the project. That is part of the give and take. Everyone working on their own pet project won't get anywhere, compromise is essential.
01/17/2003 (2:31 am)
Yeah, I wasn't really trying to call attention to RW, just using it as a personal example.One problem is that there is an overwhelming number of projects. The 'A' section alone goes on for pages and pages. So finding a suitable project is like finding a needle in haystack.
I know a lot of people are not going to like the suggestion I am about to make, because it will strike them as elitist. But I would love to see an area that highlighted promising projects. A "promising project" would be a project that was making steady forward progress towards eventual publication. (Or some form of completion) If those projects were looking for help those would be projects people could join as "sure things," as sure as things get anyway. Or a less subjective method would be to rank projects by activity/popularity like sourceforge does.
I would guess that 99% of the projects listed in the project pages have been abandoned. It makes it impossible to find what you are looking for due to the volume, and if you do find what you are looking for the overwhelming odds are that the project has been dropped.
Many people have been burned by joining (or starting) projects that eventually went belly-up. I've done that myself a few times. If there was just *one* mech game, one futuristic space game, one turn based strategy game, one historical war game...a lot of people would be working on things that didn't exactly meet their deepest desires, but a lot more projects would be finished.
I am assuming of course that the existing team would be flexible with new members and take their input into consideration and let them shape the project. That is part of the give and take. Everyone working on their own pet project won't get anywhere, compromise is essential.
#3
It's always nice to think that people would join a project over starting one, but when then engine is only 100 bucks, how can you not want to try? I would say however, those who do try and want to quit from frustration or lack of help, postpone it for a while, and go offer someone assitence. In the long run you will be better off.
1.) Getting more experience with whatever field your helping with. Take that knowledge and place it back on yours.
2.) You make friends that can possibly help with yours after that one is complete. Or go on to help another and try to learn a different field. Always keep growing and trying to learn
All in all, I would also like to see more people joining teams rather then starting projects to just have them laying around. But it is always nice to see people trying. I do believe that indie games will start to rival the big publishers within the next 5 years. Will be nice to see someone you know or possibly helped publish a game. It is a very great feeling.
01/17/2003 (3:37 am)
James I agree with you but I also can understand why people would want to start there own. Most people (I hope) have some form of talent before they start a project and not jus think they can be the one explaining it to others and have them shape it. Most anyone can think of a game and know how they want it to come out or would like it to come out. Too many though don't think of the physics, the massive gameplay issues, model requirements, and so on. Once they find out how hard it actualy is to make a game from scratch, they give up after a few frail attempts. I myself almost stopped my project but im forcing myself to learn how to program and model better so I can get a big chunck done. It's always nice to think that people would join a project over starting one, but when then engine is only 100 bucks, how can you not want to try? I would say however, those who do try and want to quit from frustration or lack of help, postpone it for a while, and go offer someone assitence. In the long run you will be better off.
1.) Getting more experience with whatever field your helping with. Take that knowledge and place it back on yours.
2.) You make friends that can possibly help with yours after that one is complete. Or go on to help another and try to learn a different field. Always keep growing and trying to learn
All in all, I would also like to see more people joining teams rather then starting projects to just have them laying around. But it is always nice to see people trying. I do believe that indie games will start to rival the big publishers within the next 5 years. Will be nice to see someone you know or possibly helped publish a game. It is a very great feeling.
#4
01/18/2003 (2:01 pm)
bear in mind that the dropped projects of today have to potential to be the development packs of tommorow, the good thing is the work can be recycled if some thought is given to that.
#5
I dont agree however that a large team makes the difference between stuff that does and doesnt get made, I think its all about dedication. I've been on big teams (5-10) people that have gotten stuff done incredibly slowly, while my own game Isotope X, which for most of its developement was just me working on it, but recently taken on a dedicated programmer, is actualy continuously progressing at a pretty steady rate. I mean sure it would be nice to have a team of 10 dedicated professional people that already knew exactly what to do and had a ton of dedication, but thats just not the way things always work, I've found that the more people you put on, the less organized things are, the less skilled people are and in some cases the slower things get done (which makes people just stop caring about the game and leave). I think if an artist and programmer really believe in the game that their making and are willing to dedicate the manpower to seeing it through (which I think is the flaw in most games), then theres no reason why a team of two cant make a really great game together (and completely destroy their social lives!!!)
01/18/2003 (4:37 pm)
I agree that it would be a good idea for GG to post an "A" list of games. In fact I know they have been thinking about it, a couple months ago I recieved an email from Rick Overman asking permission to put shots of Isotope X up on the new players site (this was long before the players site was up) in a "what you can look foreward to" (not actual quote from rick) sorta section. This would give people the GG seal of "this isnt a waist of time". It would be nice to see this section go up!I dont agree however that a large team makes the difference between stuff that does and doesnt get made, I think its all about dedication. I've been on big teams (5-10) people that have gotten stuff done incredibly slowly, while my own game Isotope X, which for most of its developement was just me working on it, but recently taken on a dedicated programmer, is actualy continuously progressing at a pretty steady rate. I mean sure it would be nice to have a team of 10 dedicated professional people that already knew exactly what to do and had a ton of dedication, but thats just not the way things always work, I've found that the more people you put on, the less organized things are, the less skilled people are and in some cases the slower things get done (which makes people just stop caring about the game and leave). I think if an artist and programmer really believe in the game that their making and are willing to dedicate the manpower to seeing it through (which I think is the flaw in most games), then theres no reason why a team of two cant make a really great game together (and completely destroy their social lives!!!)
#6
I think it would be cool to trim out all the non-active projects. Of course that would involve keeping track of inactive projects. I think with a little work, the GG guys could a current status text box entry for the project, which the creator has to update every set amount of time (maybe 1 month or 3 months or something). If the project isn't updated in that set amount of time, it is deleted, since there's obviously no activity (or none who cares enough to update the status of their project).
You could also email the project creator a couple days before the deadline...everything can be automated...I don't know maybe the GG guys may want to consider this. People who start projects and then disappear are not going to come back just to delete their project. As time goes one the noise to information ratio will just continue rising...
That's just my suggestion. In this way, you don't really have to subjectively decide which projects "look promising".
01/18/2003 (8:23 pm)
Good post James...although at first I did think it was just a shameless lightly veiled plug for RW, but anyways, you make some good points and some interesting suggestions.I think it would be cool to trim out all the non-active projects. Of course that would involve keeping track of inactive projects. I think with a little work, the GG guys could a current status text box entry for the project, which the creator has to update every set amount of time (maybe 1 month or 3 months or something). If the project isn't updated in that set amount of time, it is deleted, since there's obviously no activity (or none who cares enough to update the status of their project).
You could also email the project creator a couple days before the deadline...everything can be automated...I don't know maybe the GG guys may want to consider this. People who start projects and then disappear are not going to come back just to delete their project. As time goes one the noise to information ratio will just continue rising...
That's just my suggestion. In this way, you don't really have to subjectively decide which projects "look promising".
#7
01/18/2003 (8:54 pm)
It really has nothing to do with Realm Wars, just my observations from talking to people, looking at .plans, etc. There are *so* many people starting games, it just doesn't make sense really. It is tempting to think that the more games people start the more games will get finished, but I don't think it works that way.
#8
"Its not the size that matters, its what you do with it".
Yeah, insert cracks here! :) But it really does make a difference to know that I have someone I can work with who has put as much or more time into the project than I have.
To comment on another note:
Those three games that are up on the player's site are more than enough motivation. It actually reminds me not to walk away and to have hope that it can be done. Its all about perspective, as I'd much rather have 1 person who is willing to go the distance than a team of 10 that go half-way.
01/18/2003 (10:02 pm)
I agree whole-hearted Eric. I would love to have that team also, but reality has left me with two people (including myself). I started by reading forums and trying tutorials and made some attempts at mods and even a full blown game. The attempts were horrible, but the knowledge gained was awesome. I am still learning a ton, and with the unyielding determination my graphic artist has, we are making progress. To quote a frequently used cliche:"Its not the size that matters, its what you do with it".
Yeah, insert cracks here! :) But it really does make a difference to know that I have someone I can work with who has put as much or more time into the project than I have.
To comment on another note:
Those three games that are up on the player's site are more than enough motivation. It actually reminds me not to walk away and to have hope that it can be done. Its all about perspective, as I'd much rather have 1 person who is willing to go the distance than a team of 10 that go half-way.
#9
One of the things that people fail to take into account when they take on multiple projects is that when "life" intervenes(as it will do occasionally), they will usually have to drop one or more projects to deal with whatever is going on.
If a person has only one project to deal with, then they have a better chance of still being able to work on it.
01/20/2003 (6:13 pm)
James, I gotta agree wholeheartedly. I've been in the indie gaming scene since '97 and I haven't seen one game I was involved with get completed. The turnover was so overwhelming to the project that it was like blowing the treads off of a tank(speaking as one who's been on both sides of those treads).One of the things that people fail to take into account when they take on multiple projects is that when "life" intervenes(as it will do occasionally), they will usually have to drop one or more projects to deal with whatever is going on.
If a person has only one project to deal with, then they have a better chance of still being able to work on it.
#10
Mainly though, going by "its not the size, its the way you use it" factor, it is the communication that's the key to a successful project, if everyone can communicate and stay dedicated then it will progress smoothly. And the project has a higher chance of completion.
With the number of projects tackled by any one person, I think 2 projects is about all anyone can tackle at any one time, any more than that will result in a poor effort between them, and having only 1 project gets kinda boring sometimes, so if there is a second one it can break the monotony and provide a fresh boost. Also there needs to be constant progress that people can see, becuase when you see something work, especially visually, it gives you hope and a boost in morale.
And finally I would like to see some form of ranking system within the projects, and even the profiles of the members. This will allow people to take a look at the projects that are being worked on, and if a project is at the bottom of the barrel for a long time it can be safely dropped (with an email notification of course).
Well that's just it for me now.
01/20/2003 (6:38 pm)
Well I personally think that a smaller team is better, each that has their own unique roles to play. Sure a large team would rock, but then you'd have to have several people just coordinating the damn effort, and its all that much more difficult over the internet when no-one can see each other's faces.Mainly though, going by "its not the size, its the way you use it" factor, it is the communication that's the key to a successful project, if everyone can communicate and stay dedicated then it will progress smoothly. And the project has a higher chance of completion.
With the number of projects tackled by any one person, I think 2 projects is about all anyone can tackle at any one time, any more than that will result in a poor effort between them, and having only 1 project gets kinda boring sometimes, so if there is a second one it can break the monotony and provide a fresh boost. Also there needs to be constant progress that people can see, becuase when you see something work, especially visually, it gives you hope and a boost in morale.
And finally I would like to see some form of ranking system within the projects, and even the profiles of the members. This will allow people to take a look at the projects that are being worked on, and if a project is at the bottom of the barrel for a long time it can be safely dropped (with an email notification of course).
Well that's just it for me now.
Torque Owner Karsten "Clocks" Viese
Maybe it would be a good idea for people who still works on their project to breifly outline its theme.
Then projects that are in the same field could be merged together to form a bigger team (and in the same time eliminate the competition :D)
By now its should be clear who on your (1 year old) team is actually working on the game.
It would be better for 2-3 teams with maybe 15 members where only 4-5 is actually working to merge to a single team with those 4-5 people.
Just an idea.