So many MMORPG projects. Can torque handle it?

#1 Yes, with some major changes to the netcode. (Don't get me wrong, Torque's netcode is great, just not really suited to MMORPGs.)

#2 Massively multiplayer is a pretty generic term. RPG's are alot harder anyways. Torque already is massively multi-player with its master server. seemlessly integrated multi-zone servers??? not yet. goto
ActionRPG.com
a developer named Joshua Ritter is creating a system in an open source fashion for the entire world and community to use. It sounds stable and extensible and feature rich. Other than that, there is a resource for creating "server hopping polygons" for in-game server transitions. Its possible to do it with stock resources as is. But i suggest helping josh and his project and use/understand the technology. He has recently tested his software successfully.

#3 The GORPE project is another open source MMORPG engine project based on the D20 ruleset. We're not as far along as Joshua, but then again we've not been working on this for a year.

Can Torque handle a MMORPG? There's no reason why it can't, especialy given that we have the source... One thing to keep in mind, even though you may have 3k people in a given "world" at a time they're spread out in different areas most of the time so the network issues are split between servers.

The big issues aren't network related but deal with things like AI and the like.

#4 I constantly see posts declaring that "everyone and their sister is making a MMORPG"... I just don't buy this statement.

As a rule, MMORPG "projects" are small groups of people who have never so much as created a demo before. They are generally misinformed on technology, content creation, and the infrastructure necessary to run centralized servers. Often they think some small twist in the game formula will see their "team" thru development. They are fulltime employees(or students) with tiny windows to work on their massive undertaking. They usually get frustrated within a few months and give up or simply allow the project to linger a quiet death. Progress is charted in terms of:

Milestone 1: Nothing
Milestone 2: A bit later, having next to nothing
Milestone 3: No foreseeable end.

Perhaps this isn't news or very interesting. The point I'm attempting to make is that I searched for a MMP project to join before creating my own. The closest I came was the Worldforge project which frankly is a total mess. It's really quite bleak when you look around; My tolerance for hot air ran out a number of years ago.

I helped found a game company 7 years ago which gave me the chance to learn "what the hell I am doing"(tm). I have since lost interest in the 4-6 month development cycles and limited vision of the projects being run thru that company. A bit over a year ago I had to make a decision. Stick with what I was doing(nope), get a job at a AAA studio(hrm), or work on something "impossible" that I was highly interested in: MMP Cooperative Gameplay inside a Persistent World. I believe the right decision was made, things are already coming into focus.

I work fulltime on persistent world technology. It has proven a very difficult and ironically, quite lonely road. The amount of education has FAR exceeded what I thought going in. This is with a background in creating game engines, writing games, reaching milestones, and shipping products. In fact: learning, prototyping, and the acquisition of supporting technology has been the major accomplishment to date.

The wheels of production are now shifting and this feels very good. I also recently changed the direction of the MMP Framework to Open Source. I did this in the hopes of rallying much needed help to the project... in the coming months, there will be a source release with announcements far and wide... we'll see...

I want to create persistent worlds and technology with a solid core of individuals. That's not so much to ask is it? :)

-Joshua Ritter
ActionRPG Revolutionary

#5 Josh is right, if we all work and help ACTIONRPG, we may all see success. Its true theres strength in numbers. I think about software dev alot. If you cant outcode josh then you should work on his project, as you will be relieved of worrying about the great unknowns of development. Your never going to make a MMOG without knowing about the underlying technologies. There are 1000's of MMOG projects. its dissapointing to not see people working together to accomplish a common goal.

#6 One of the main problems with managing *any* software project is designing a product that your team can create within it's resource limits of time, cost and talent.

Limiting the product within these criteria is the basic tenet that all should follow. The next step, and the most difficult in my opinion, is doing this without limiting creativity.

The combination of feature creep and the general "wow, let's add a fxfannypack" can kill a project in a few short months.

The additional problem, and a very rough guide, is that the design goes up almost exponentially with product size. This obviously is not an axiom but I have never seen an indie product work without a good, clear design. If I'm wrong and there has been then all I can say is that I wouldn't want to of been part of the chaos.

If a project like ActionRPG is to suceed then I can't think of anyone else on the forums who could pull it off better than you Joshua. Making your computer act like a portal into a persistant gaming world is one of those awesome ideas that, in my opinion, hasn't fully spread it's wings yet.

I wish you the best of luck and hope for the best. :)

- Melv.

#7 Youre missing the biggest reason there are so many MMORPG's and FPS's and other ME TOO type games that get started but never finish.

Everyone thinks thier idea's are better. They ALL want to either

1) "improve" on their favourite game by adding one tiny component OR
2) They have a "revolutionary idea" and want to make THEIR game.

Sadly, almost ALL of the game idea's we see, are sad rehashes of old games. Thats ok if you acknowledge thats what your doing, but trying to paint it differently really gets me going.

MMORPG's are popular right now, so its not surprising its the "ME TOO" product of the moment. As soon as another big game type hits it'll be out of fashion again.

Lets face it, those who can, will, those who cant, wont, its as simple as that. Lets see whats released in the next year or two.

Phil.

#8 It's true, I wanted to create an on-line game a fe wmonths ago, the reason why it got doscontinued:

- Didn't found people to work freely

- Found people that are too far away and live in a totally diferent time-zone

- Didn't had a license for star trek :)

The last thing offcourse did it, why create a game and then receive an e-mail saying you should stop. Anyway, I also want to make an on-line rpg, because I hate single players, it makes me feel so alone :)

I son't know about ActionRPG, I'm gonna do some reading about it.

#9 Alot of things you cant control, youll never be able to control people or teams without paying them. So you have to constantly comprimise. Its going to take years so internet team mates can come and go. You pretty much have to be able to do it all yourself, if not actually do it all yourself. everything. Your going to have to comprimise with your team mates, youll never be able to dictate like a madman without bribing them with paychecks. So why not JOIN one of the 10,000,000 other projects. Like i said josh's should be a great game and a great place to get your foot in the door. You can spend 5 years learning and struggling if your insane. Netcode is less of a worry with almost 75% broadband connects nowadays. Its possible, just improbable.

#10 MMORPG's aren't exactly a new thing... Hands up how many people wasted there university years playing some MUD / MUSH / MU* whatevers? I've played a fair few in my time and I have yet to see any of the 'new' MMORPG's provide anywhere near as an interesting experiance as a simple text browser could since the invention of the net.

Like most people here i've been watching Joshua's progress for some time, and his professionalism / capability are obvious and given time seems more than capable of pulling this off. If anyone is serious about making a MMORPG and isn't capable of assisting directly... they should worry about the MOUNTAINS of art / content is needed for a full environment.

There's not any part of such a project that is difficult in isolation, there's just an aweful lot to do. It kind of grates me a bit people seem to automatically dismiss such projects (ok I know some are questionable at best, but some >could< eventually get done).

So "Can Torque actually handle a MMORPG?", in isolation... probably not. But there's some good people working on it, it will happen sooner or later. Just needs a massive multiplayer effort first :)

#11 Please forgive me for this shameless plug, but when I heard how some text-only MUD/MUSH/MU* can provide a more intense experience that some of the high-tech MMORPGS today, I couldnt resist putting this link to www.vaxia.org. I made this game on 96, I coded all of it on Perl, and it is still running strong today. Visit it if you miss those university years B)

Now, on the real subject, I find the comments here very enlightening, specially the ones about so many "Me Too" games that never get finished. I can totally understand how that happens. It seems to me like a waste of precious development time. It makes me wish there was a way to ensure that projects that get started, are serious, get serious people, with realistic goals and milestones, good design before the first line of code is typed, and just... well, just a better chance of actually finishing the project.

How many of us reading this thread have finished a videogame project? Those of you, or.. those who have any experience worth sharing.. would you mind posting a few hints, a few pointers, .. tips.. on how to be serious about developing games without being paid a salary, and how to get things done? Because am sure, if all the people who spent precious time on projects that got ditched halfway, would had rather worked together on a single serious project.. then maybe they would have found a happy ending.

Am starting a project myself. Like Joshua, I have looked all over GG, searching for something alike what I have in mind, and while I found a couple of similar things, its nothing quite like it, so I guess starting from scratch is justified. But before I call for any developers to join me, I want to finish a very professional design document, and a time table, good schedules, and a commitment pledge, which lists, among other things, fixed times when all members must meet in some chatroom, even for 30 minutes only, but daily and without miss. Before I call out for members, I want to finish a website, to serve as repository for files we share, and the design ideas etc. . Anyway.. if anyone has any advice on how to actually complete serious projects.. I'd like to hear it B)

Thx

#12 If you want to complete a game, i think you just have to choose a realistic goal. Is it your first game ? Yes ? So why choose an ambitious goal like a mmorpg ?
I'm working on my very first game, and i have to learn so many things !
If you decide to become a architect, do you start your career buy making the Empire State Building ?

Christophe CANON

#13 Marco, thanks for the link... I banned myself from MU*ing a while back... something about needing some time(...to program games of course). But it's Christmas... so one little look can't hurt too much... NO! must resist ;)

There were some awesome discussions at the Indie Games Convention about finishing games, remote team management etc. Well worth a read.

I think anyone that is serious about this learns the 'start small' mighty fast. Assuming they don't already know it. And that was pretty much the vibe from IndieGamesCon as well. But 'small' doesn't mean lousy. Look at Orbz... dare I say the most innovative game i've played in a long time, and that didn't actually take the 21-6 guys too long. But in my mind MMORPG's aren't as insurmountable as people think they are. And with right tools (e.g. ActionRPG) and a whole lot of drive (read right team)... there's no reason not to start with one.

At this point i'll mention i'm not working on a MMORPG, I decided it was too large... and I wanted to do a small game first :)

#14 Awesome thread guys, sorry I am joining this so late. I have a few comments though. It seems that a lot of projects are doomed to failure because of runaway scope, lack of any design and lack of experience (maybe the later is a great cause for the former two). But what about those projects where the project manager has a good grasp of what they want (maybe not a formal written design but at least a design of some sort), they have the experience to accomplish the goal and have even gone through many iterations of scope refinement but still fail? I, like so many, have had many creative and interesting project ideas that just never made it to final fruitation.

I have had at least one or two that I did finish however. These projects were different in that the scope was smaller (lesson learned) and my commitment "seemed" greater. It seems to me that a lot of projects fail because of lack of commitment. Boredom sets in halfway through the project and it's an almost insurmountable obstacle when you're working for free. This happens to me every time but I hardly ever here it mentioned from other indie developers (am I alone in this problem?). All of the other problems associated with project failure can almost be attributed to lack of experience and that is a self correcting problem. If that's the case then the real obstacles that remain are mostly psychological.

Does anyone have any good information on how to combat the inner demons that prevent these projects from coming to completion? What are good ways to motivate yourself when you're not getting paid for doing this? How do you deal with the realization that 99.999% of all projects like yours never make it (self fulfilling prophecies)? When pessimism/realism finally overtakes enthusiasm how does one continue to muddle through? How do will yourself into a "Just do it" attitude and maintain one while maintaining a realistic (non obsessive) healthy outlook of the situation? In a group situation are most of these problems mitigated or are they amplified on a group level?

These are tough questions and ones that were not used to answering but they just might be MORE important then all of the technical/experience related issues. Does anyone have any resources that can help with the psychological issues related to project development? Yeah I roll my eyes too whenever I see some snake oil salesman spout of about their latest self help book but aren't those types of issues still important. Is it realistic to think that I was born with the niehien willpower of monk?

Ves

#15 The only thing I'm concerned with with MMORPGs in torque, or MMORPGs in general, is in the zoning - does the game designer think about limiting traffic to ONLY what is necessary and can you rework Torque to accomodate that?

I wanted to add something. Now, you must color these next opinions by the fact that I am a one-man team about 60-80% of my way towards completing the FIRST game, so I'm not speaking as I should be, with the experience of having completed the process many times successfully:

It seems completion of a game is not just a technical thing, at all, it has to do with many other factors, but is what counts. Lots of people say they will make a MMORPG in a rush of creative fury, but how many do? It obviously requires more than enthusiasm. So, for those who may be somewhere behind me in the journey, let me share what I have found helped me to keep going:

1. Do what genuinely want to

Many times I worked on games because I thought I could do them, or just because they were simple, but the only game I am steadily closing on, is the one I really wanted to make. It seems to be like career or university - it has to be the thing you really want to do or you won't get through it..

2. Art last

This may be common wisdom, but I believe you should do the art part of a game LAST. Do the mechanical pieces (code) first and use the realms wars models, and when the game works and plays like you want, then do the fun bits - the models and interiors and stuff. Doing the art first seems to peter out my creativity and then I don't wanna do the code. Besides, if the code won't work, the art is pointless, ... unless you're gonna sell it on turbosquid?

3. Share

I work with and share with all the other game-designers I know. If they need art or have a problem, I try to help out. Likewise, they try to help me. I have known SO MANY PEOPLE over the years who said they were making games, and nothing has ever come of it. These people also had the attitude "NO GET AWAY! MINE MINE MINE! MY MILLION!" My feeling is that the chance on an indie developer making a million are very, very slim. However, our chances of finishing a game are vastly greater if we support each other.
If ever I make a game that makes a million, or one of my game-designer friends does, then we'll talk about how much we owe each other, but I intend to cross that bridge then, rather than hoarding jealously now.
I still meet the other kind, but that's ok - they get nothing from me, I get nothing from them. Good luck to them.

4. Next

I was a VP dev for many a year, and I have seen the "trickling down to die" of countless projects. Nothing is longer or more deadly to software dev. than that final stage where it's almost done and it just drags and drags and crawls to a halt. What I do is to start up the creative process for the NEXT one. I don't work on that one, I just start writing down the design and ideas. This builds up steam and makes me finish the last boring stages of a previous project.

5. manage your heart

This is perhaps the most nebulous, but it's been a serious consideration for me. I've had to manage my insides as I do this. Battle doubt, and talk to myself about what I stand to gain, what I risk, what I am doing. Mostly, this takes the form of me thinking I should be doing a different game. I chart out all the games in my head and figure out what each one brings to me, what each one will require in terms of effort, and so on.. and when I realize that the one I'm working on is still best and brightest of all, it re-aligns me and re-motivates me.
Discouragement is a terrible thing. When things don't work I get very frustrated, and discouraged. I have taken LONG breaks from the game development and worked just on my commissions, and come bak with renewed vigor.

Anyway, hope that helps SOMEBODY on the road behind me :)