TGEA 1.8.0 (1.8.1 Beta) bug - artifacts on Intel 965
by Funky Diver · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 01/31/2009 (10:48 am) · 28 replies
I have a laptop with Intel 965 (x3100) card and TGEA 1.8.0 shows bad flickering on the terrain (Atlas I assume) when it's covered with fog or about to enter the fog line - all the demos show same problem under DirectX and OpenGL. The laptop is updated with latest drivers for Jan 2009.
Here is the shot: http://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tgea181bugfu6.jpg
On top of that, the framerates are very low and movement very sluggish in a very simple scene with only terran and no props/AI running. Not good for a casual game ;)
p.s. GG forum soft is broken - cannot make the image show up, sorry for the plain link
Here is the shot: http://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tgea181bugfu6.jpg
On top of that, the framerates are very low and movement very sluggish in a very simple scene with only terran and no props/AI running. Not good for a casual game ;)
p.s. GG forum soft is broken - cannot make the image show up, sorry for the plain link
#2
I did test it once and it did run TGEA, but not anything you'd be able to play very well. As I remember the terrain showed the most amazing psychedilic colour grid at a certain distance.
And everything Michael said.
edit: I've got a 950
01/31/2009 (8:23 pm)
Does the Intel 965 reach min specs for TGEA? I'm sure I've got one in a laptop (which I can't find right now).I did test it once and it did run TGEA, but not anything you'd be able to play very well. As I remember the terrain showed the most amazing psychedilic colour grid at a certain distance.
And everything Michael said.
edit: I've got a 950
#3
The fog is rendered in a seperate pass on top of the existing terrain. If the Intel card/driver is causing a very slight precision issue then what you could be seeing there is areas where the fog is behind the terrain. This is especially possible on bigger scenes like the one in the T3D project.
Try opening up the mission editor and tweaking the visible distance setting on the sky object.
01/31/2009 (8:55 pm)
@Alexander - Those look like z fighting artifacts.The fog is rendered in a seperate pass on top of the existing terrain. If the Intel card/driver is causing a very slight precision issue then what you could be seeing there is areas where the fog is behind the terrain. This is especially possible on bigger scenes like the one in the T3D project.
Try opening up the mission editor and tweaking the visible distance setting on the sky object.
#4
@Steve - most of the T3D objects render fine on 950/965, but few important ones have terrible artifacts, even those that do not use shaders (!). Another disappointing thing is performance on a fairly simple scene...
@Tom - thank you for the suggestion! The tweaking did not help, unfortunately... the original TGE fog renders fine (it's a separate pass as well as far as I remember). Unity3D's fog renders just fine on the same platform, which is using the same 32-bit buffers as TGEA.
Granted, Intel cards are a child with special needs, but a very popular one ;)
02/01/2009 (7:48 am)
@Michael - I do agree Intel card are not the best for gaming and they were criticized for hijacking the casual game market :) It does not change the fact that our indie customers will have 950/965 chipset for another good 3 years as minimum, and we need to pay mortgages :)@Steve - most of the T3D objects render fine on 950/965, but few important ones have terrible artifacts, even those that do not use shaders (!). Another disappointing thing is performance on a fairly simple scene...
@Tom - thank you for the suggestion! The tweaking did not help, unfortunately... the original TGE fog renders fine (it's a separate pass as well as far as I remember). Unity3D's fog renders just fine on the same platform, which is using the same 32-bit buffers as TGEA.
Granted, Intel cards are a child with special needs, but a very popular one ;)
#5
Atleast with the 6150 you are getting full shader 3.0 support and Dx 9.0 tossed in with the dell.
Example Dell's cheapest cheap desktop $279 (before a $100 mail in rebate)
Operating system: Genuine Windows Vista Home Basic with Service Pack 1 (32-bit)
Processor: AMD Sempron(TM) LE1300 [2.3GHz]
Memory: 2GB DDR2-800MHz SDRAM [2x1024]
Primary DVD/CD drive: LightScribe 16X max. DVD+/-R/RW SuperMulti drive
Graphics card: Integrated NVIDIA GeForce 6150 SE [VGA]
Hard drive 250GB 7200 rpm SATA 3Gb/s hard drive
Networking LAN port on system board (10/100Base-T), no wireles LAN
Sound Card Integrated 7.1 channel sound with front audio ports
Contains a Nvidia GeForce 6150 SE. Thats the cheapest and lowest model they ship and thats a $179 computer after the main in rebate. (No monitor included btw)
Now granted 4-5 years ago when nvidia and ati where not making intergrated chipsets intel ran the grounds. But thats not the case anymore and even with there new intergrated card they have come out with they have met stiff resistance from the big name computer makers because of there past card failings.
Gettings any engine to work with Intel's Intergrated line has always been a mess and ultimately not worth the effort and time put into trying to get them to work. There chips have always claimed so many features but due to there software based nature 75% of it was smoke in the mirrors at the end of the day.
02/01/2009 (11:24 am)
Actually Intel cards are used alot less then you might think. Nvidia contains alot of the labtop and desktop intergrated market. You will be hard pressed to find a intel chipset in a store bought or ordered PC within the last two years. HP has moved almost exclusively to the nvidia chipset for hte last two years. Can't speak for Dell but cost wise it is almost the same to ship a nvidia 6150 chipset as it is to toss in a intel chipset.Atleast with the 6150 you are getting full shader 3.0 support and Dx 9.0 tossed in with the dell.
Example Dell's cheapest cheap desktop $279 (before a $100 mail in rebate)
Operating system: Genuine Windows Vista Home Basic with Service Pack 1 (32-bit)
Processor: AMD Sempron(TM) LE1300 [2.3GHz]
Memory: 2GB DDR2-800MHz SDRAM [2x1024]
Primary DVD/CD drive: LightScribe 16X max. DVD+/-R/RW SuperMulti drive
Graphics card: Integrated NVIDIA GeForce 6150 SE [VGA]
Hard drive 250GB 7200 rpm SATA 3Gb/s hard drive
Networking LAN port on system board (10/100Base-T), no wireles LAN
Sound Card Integrated 7.1 channel sound with front audio ports
Contains a Nvidia GeForce 6150 SE. Thats the cheapest and lowest model they ship and thats a $179 computer after the main in rebate. (No monitor included btw)
Now granted 4-5 years ago when nvidia and ati where not making intergrated chipsets intel ran the grounds. But thats not the case anymore and even with there new intergrated card they have come out with they have met stiff resistance from the big name computer makers because of there past card failings.
Gettings any engine to work with Intel's Intergrated line has always been a mess and ultimately not worth the effort and time put into trying to get them to work. There chips have always claimed so many features but due to there software based nature 75% of it was smoke in the mirrors at the end of the day.
#6
Intel market share is decreasing, but stays strong. Fall 2008 shows Intel has 37% in XP-based portables and 39% in Vista-based portables, while keeping 20% in desktop systems.
It seems that casual players are mostly portable based nowdays (for example, my wife is only using Vista-based laptop which is 4 month old with Intel card (!))
That's nearly 20%-39% of my sales will be missed if I cannot support Intel based cards.
02/04/2009 (7:38 pm)
@ThomasIntel market share is decreasing, but stays strong. Fall 2008 shows Intel has 37% in XP-based portables and 39% in Vista-based portables, while keeping 20% in desktop systems.
It seems that casual players are mostly portable based nowdays (for example, my wife is only using Vista-based laptop which is 4 month old with Intel card (!))
That's nearly 20%-39% of my sales will be missed if I cannot support Intel based cards.
#7
02/04/2009 (8:26 pm)
That's strange... my T400's intel gfx is working fine... maybe it's a driver issue? The T400 with switchable graphics uses a bit weird of a driver, so it might just be an exception, but I don't know.
#8
02/04/2009 (8:31 pm)
If your buying a laptop with a intel graphics chipset then you are getting ripped off. There's simply no other way to put it. Even cheap walmart $250 portables feature a nvidia based graphics chip in them.
#9
@Chris - I tried to run TGEA demos on different machines with different drivers - same flickering bug on the terrain/big objects... You are the exception :) did you try one with terrain?
02/05/2009 (5:19 pm)
Another thing - Intel dominates Mac market as Mac mini and MacBook were sold with 950 chipset. Things just changed recently with Apple accepting gforce 9400 for their bottom line, but they will not replace macs on the hands for good few years.@Chris - I tried to run TGEA demos on different machines with different drivers - same flickering bug on the terrain/big objects... You are the exception :) did you try one with terrain?
#10
This is TGEA running on my laptop on the intel gfx mode. It appears to be fine. If there's anything going on, it's certainly not as noticeable as the picture you showed.
The graphics used is: Intel X4500
02/05/2009 (5:45 pm)
This is TGEA running on my laptop on the intel gfx mode. It appears to be fine. If there's anything going on, it's certainly not as noticeable as the picture you showed.
The graphics used is: Intel X4500
#11
02/05/2009 (7:07 pm)
@Chris: Don't mean to hijack the thread, but what sort of performance do you see on the X4500? Is it acceptable for TGEA development purposes?
#12
02/05/2009 (7:11 pm)
@Alexander: Can you post your client/prefs.cs?
#13
02/05/2009 (7:41 pm)
@Jaimi: Actually, surprisingly, the performance is quite nice. I'm sure it's got to do with TGEA's shader fallbacks or something, but it's usable even for release purposes. I'd guess 30+ fps if I had to throw a number out, but I don't have fraps on that computer to know for sure. 
#14
A passing thought. Do you have more than one system? Sometimes the issue is that the prefs.cs file you are using is for another card and you are getting artifacts because your system is treating the card like the wrong model. I only suggest this because at least one person with a similar card does not have the issue.
Try deleting and regenerating your client/prefs.cs and see if that helps at all.
If not also check your defaults.cs to make sure you are not specifying something there which the Intel card would have toruble with.
02/06/2009 (6:12 am)
Alexander,A passing thought. Do you have more than one system? Sometimes the issue is that the prefs.cs file you are using is for another card and you are getting artifacts because your system is treating the card like the wrong model. I only suggest this because at least one person with a similar card does not have the issue.
Try deleting and regenerating your client/prefs.cs and see if that helps at all.
If not also check your defaults.cs to make sure you are not specifying something there which the Intel card would have toruble with.
#15
@Jaimi - I used a vanila SDK setup downloaded from GG site, did not change anything, pref.cs was not created.
on a X3x00 card the Atlas/Stronghold demos lurk with 5-7 fps
@David, tried on few systems with clean SDK install, the prefs.cs is not created, nor existed before the launch, so it takes defaults, I assume. Nothing suspicious in defaults.cs... I'll try to play with it, but that may affect the other videocards...
02/06/2009 (9:45 am)
@Chris - mine is X3x00 card, I wonder X4500 has better architecture? @Jaimi - I used a vanila SDK setup downloaded from GG site, did not change anything, pref.cs was not created.
on a X3x00 card the Atlas/Stronghold demos lurk with 5-7 fps
@David, tried on few systems with clean SDK install, the prefs.cs is not created, nor existed before the launch, so it takes defaults, I assume. Nothing suspicious in defaults.cs... I'll try to play with it, but that may affect the other videocards...
#16
02/06/2009 (9:35 pm)
I guess they actually did improve it some then... To be honest, I didn't know it was a X4500 until after I looked it up online right as I was posting that picture... I would have mentioned that earlier, otherwise.
#17
BTW, Unity3D does not show such artifacts on a similar scene with terrain and fog with same drivers and cards. Seems to me a specific implementation (different way of rendering fog? float rounding assumptions?) in Torque that causes it.
02/09/2009 (2:09 pm)
FYI, played with the settings - same result, artifacts on pre-X3000 and X3000 cards...BTW, Unity3D does not show such artifacts on a similar scene with terrain and fog with same drivers and cards. Seems to me a specific implementation (different way of rendering fog? float rounding assumptions?) in Torque that causes it.
#18
$pref::TextureManager::reductionLevel = "1"; // scales X/Y by 1/2. Change to "2" for 1/4
$pref::TextureManager::qualityMode = "1";
02/09/2009 (2:41 pm)
@Alexander - is it possible that it is running low/out of texture mem? Is that the main T3D demo you are running? (I'm at work and can't see the pic). If so, that is running a MegaTerrain which uses quite a bit of graphics memory (40mb, IIRC by default). You can lower it down by editing the. .MIS file, and changing the TexelsPerMeter to 4 on all 4 terrains, and see if that helps with performance. (it will lower the RAM usage down to appx 26mb). Also - some of the materials on the models are 1024x1024, and these are notoriously slow on older hardware. (Spaceorc and boombot). Even 512x512 is not so good on these older cards. You can get TGEA to scale these for you automatically (for testing purposes) by playing with these:$pref::TextureManager::reductionLevel = "1"; // scales X/Y by 1/2. Change to "2" for 1/4
$pref::TextureManager::qualityMode = "1";
#19
I played with settings as you suggested - I get higher FPS count, but artifacts do not go away :(
This is what my Intel 965 card can support:
GPU Max Texture Units : 8
GPU Max Hardware Lights : 16
GPU Max Texture Size : 2048 ( 0 npots, 1024 cubemaps )
GPU Max Texture Anisotropy : 2
GPU Max Point Size : 255
GPU Min Line Width : 0.00
GPU Max Line Width : 7.50
GPU Max Elements Vertices : 1024
GPU Max Elements Indices : 1024
GPU Max Vertex Program Instructions : 512
GPU Max Vertex Program Temporaries : 31
GPU Max Vertex Program Parameters : 128 ( 96 local, 96 env )
GPU Max Vertex Program Attributes : 16
GPU Max Vertex Program Address Registers : 1
GPU Max Fragment Program Instructions : 96
GPU Max Fragment Program TEX Instructions : 32
GPU Max Fragment Program TEX Indirections : 4
GPU Max Fragment Program ALU Instructions : 64
GPU Max Fragment Program Temporaries : 16
GPU Max Fragment Program Parameters : 24 ( 24 local, 24 env )
GPU Max Fragment Program Attributes : 10
GPU Max Fragment Program Texture Coords : 8
GPU Max Fragment Program Image Units : 16
========================================================================
02/12/2009 (7:54 am)
@Jaimi - it's actually a very good point... I was running Atlas demo (has only one mega terrain tile, has 6 sky textures (each 256x256 size), one detail texture 512x512, 9 terrain textures 256x256, probably one terrain blitting texture 1024x1024) - the demo has the fog artifacts (and ugly terrain popping artifacts on LOD) but the memory I think should not go over 10Mb for textures. Another thought - it should allocate more memory if needed (from main memory). I played with settings as you suggested - I get higher FPS count, but artifacts do not go away :(
This is what my Intel 965 card can support:
GPU Max Texture Units : 8
GPU Max Hardware Lights : 16
GPU Max Texture Size : 2048 ( 0 npots, 1024 cubemaps )
GPU Max Texture Anisotropy : 2
GPU Max Point Size : 255
GPU Min Line Width : 0.00
GPU Max Line Width : 7.50
GPU Max Elements Vertices : 1024
GPU Max Elements Indices : 1024
GPU Max Vertex Program Instructions : 512
GPU Max Vertex Program Temporaries : 31
GPU Max Vertex Program Parameters : 128 ( 96 local, 96 env )
GPU Max Vertex Program Attributes : 16
GPU Max Vertex Program Address Registers : 1
GPU Max Fragment Program Instructions : 96
GPU Max Fragment Program TEX Instructions : 32
GPU Max Fragment Program TEX Indirections : 4
GPU Max Fragment Program ALU Instructions : 64
GPU Max Fragment Program Temporaries : 16
GPU Max Fragment Program Parameters : 24 ( 24 local, 24 env )
GPU Max Fragment Program Attributes : 10
GPU Max Fragment Program Texture Coords : 8
GPU Max Fragment Program Image Units : 16
========================================================================
#20
$Pref::backgroundSleepTime = "25";
$pref::ChatHudLength = 1;
$pref::CloudsOn = "1";
$pref::Console::alwaysUseDebugOutput = "1";
$pref::Console::useTimestamp = "0";
$pref::Decal::decalTimeout = "5000";
$pref::Decal::maxNumDecals = "256";
$pref::decalsOn = "1";
$pref::Editor::visibleDistance = "1000";
$pref::enableBadWordFilter = "1";
$pref::environmentMaps = "1";
$pref::HudMessageLogSize = 40;
$pref::Input::JoystickEnabled = "0";
$pref::Input::KeyboardEnabled = 1;
$pref::Input::KeyboardTurnSpeed = 0.1;
$pref::Input::LinkMouseSensitivity = 1;
$pref::Input::MouseEnabled = 1;
$pref::Interior::detailAdjust = "1";
$pref::Interior::lockArrays = "1";
$pref::Interior::ShowEnvironmentMaps = "1";
$pref::Interior::TexturedFog = "0";
$pref::Interior::VertexLighting = "0";
$pref::LightManager = "SGLM";
$pref::LightManager::sgAtlasMaxDynamicLights = "16";
$pref::LightManager::sgDynamicShadowDetailSize = "0";
$pref::LightManager::sgDynamicShadowQuality = "0";
$pref::LightManager::sgLightingProfileAllowShadows = "1";
$pref::LightManager::sgLightingProfileQuality = "0";
$pref::LightManager::sgMaxBestLights = "10";
$pref::LightManager::sgMultipleDynamicShadows = "1";
$pref::LightManager::sgShowCacheStats = "0";
$pref::LightManager::sgUseBloom = "";
$pref::LightManager::sgUseDRLHighDynamicRange = "0";
$pref::LightManager::sgUseDynamicRangeLighting = "0";
$pref::LightManager::sgUseDynamicShadows = "1";
$pref::LightManager::sgUseToneMapping = "";
$pref::Master0 = "2:master.garagegames.com:28002";
$Pref::MissionEditor::FileSpec = "Torque Mission Files (*.mis)|*.mis|All Files (*.*)|*.*|";
... Net cut
$pref::NumCloudLayers = "3";
$Pref::player::CurrentFOV = 45;
$pref::Player::defaultFov = 90;
$pref::Player::Name = "Visitor";
$pref::Player::renderMyItems = "1";
$pref::Player::renderMyPlayer = "1";
$pref::Player::zoomSpeed = 0;
$Pref::ResourceManager::excludedDirectories = ".svn;CVS";
$pref::sceneLighting::cacheLighting = 1;
$pref::sceneLighting::cacheSize = 20000;
$pref::sceneLighting::purgeMethod = "lastCreated";
$pref::sceneLighting::terrainGenerateLevel = 1;
... Server cut
... SFX cut
$pref::sgLightManager::AtlasMaxDynamicLights = "16";
$pref::sgLightManager::DynamicShadowDetailSize = "0";
$pref::sgLightManager::DynamicShadowQuality = "0";
$pref::sgLightManager::LightingProfileAllowShadows = "1";
$pref::sgLightManager::LightingProfileQuality = "0";
$pref::sgLightManager::MaxBestLights = "10";
$pref::sgLightManager::MultipleDynamicShadows = "1";
$pref::sgLightManager::ShowCacheStats = "0";
$pref::sgLightManager::UseDRLHighDynamicRange = "0";
$pref::sgLightManager::UseDynamicLightingDualOptimization = "1";
$pref::sgLightManager::UseDynamicRangeLighting = "1";
$pref::sgLightManager::UseDynamicShadows = "1";
$pref::shadows = "2";
$pref::SkyOn = "1";
02/12/2009 (7:56 am)
I forced the client/prefs.cs generation, this is the contents:$Pref::backgroundSleepTime = "25";
$pref::ChatHudLength = 1;
$pref::CloudsOn = "1";
$pref::Console::alwaysUseDebugOutput = "1";
$pref::Console::useTimestamp = "0";
$pref::Decal::decalTimeout = "5000";
$pref::Decal::maxNumDecals = "256";
$pref::decalsOn = "1";
$pref::Editor::visibleDistance = "1000";
$pref::enableBadWordFilter = "1";
$pref::environmentMaps = "1";
$pref::HudMessageLogSize = 40;
$pref::Input::JoystickEnabled = "0";
$pref::Input::KeyboardEnabled = 1;
$pref::Input::KeyboardTurnSpeed = 0.1;
$pref::Input::LinkMouseSensitivity = 1;
$pref::Input::MouseEnabled = 1;
$pref::Interior::detailAdjust = "1";
$pref::Interior::lockArrays = "1";
$pref::Interior::ShowEnvironmentMaps = "1";
$pref::Interior::TexturedFog = "0";
$pref::Interior::VertexLighting = "0";
$pref::LightManager = "SGLM";
$pref::LightManager::sgAtlasMaxDynamicLights = "16";
$pref::LightManager::sgDynamicShadowDetailSize = "0";
$pref::LightManager::sgDynamicShadowQuality = "0";
$pref::LightManager::sgLightingProfileAllowShadows = "1";
$pref::LightManager::sgLightingProfileQuality = "0";
$pref::LightManager::sgMaxBestLights = "10";
$pref::LightManager::sgMultipleDynamicShadows = "1";
$pref::LightManager::sgShowCacheStats = "0";
$pref::LightManager::sgUseBloom = "";
$pref::LightManager::sgUseDRLHighDynamicRange = "0";
$pref::LightManager::sgUseDynamicRangeLighting = "0";
$pref::LightManager::sgUseDynamicShadows = "1";
$pref::LightManager::sgUseToneMapping = "";
$pref::Master0 = "2:master.garagegames.com:28002";
$Pref::MissionEditor::FileSpec = "Torque Mission Files (*.mis)|*.mis|All Files (*.*)|*.*|";
... Net cut
$pref::NumCloudLayers = "3";
$Pref::player::CurrentFOV = 45;
$pref::Player::defaultFov = 90;
$pref::Player::Name = "Visitor";
$pref::Player::renderMyItems = "1";
$pref::Player::renderMyPlayer = "1";
$pref::Player::zoomSpeed = 0;
$Pref::ResourceManager::excludedDirectories = ".svn;CVS";
$pref::sceneLighting::cacheLighting = 1;
$pref::sceneLighting::cacheSize = 20000;
$pref::sceneLighting::purgeMethod = "lastCreated";
$pref::sceneLighting::terrainGenerateLevel = 1;
... Server cut
... SFX cut
$pref::sgLightManager::AtlasMaxDynamicLights = "16";
$pref::sgLightManager::DynamicShadowDetailSize = "0";
$pref::sgLightManager::DynamicShadowQuality = "0";
$pref::sgLightManager::LightingProfileAllowShadows = "1";
$pref::sgLightManager::LightingProfileQuality = "0";
$pref::sgLightManager::MaxBestLights = "10";
$pref::sgLightManager::MultipleDynamicShadows = "1";
$pref::sgLightManager::ShowCacheStats = "0";
$pref::sgLightManager::UseDRLHighDynamicRange = "0";
$pref::sgLightManager::UseDynamicLightingDualOptimization = "1";
$pref::sgLightManager::UseDynamicRangeLighting = "1";
$pref::sgLightManager::UseDynamicShadows = "1";
$pref::shadows = "2";
$pref::SkyOn = "1";
Associate Michael Hall
Big Kid Games