Pre-Ordering TorqueX 3.0 3D

#41 @Brian
The only reason people keep asking the same thig over and over is that there has been no response, responses by people saying "I don't think that...", or the responses need clarification.

Eg., David Montgomery-Blake said:

Quote:The codebase has been split between 2D and 3D functionality. There will not be overlap between the two. I believe that the CC version will still be the runtime and not have the source included.

So (again)... does that mean there are two TX engine products?

If someone could just hop on an clarify the product line, I'd be oh-so-grateful and not have to annoy Brian by repeating myself. :)

#42 Oy, my head is spinning after reading through this thread.

First and foremost, David is our Community Manager. We speak to him quite regularly, me in particular. Do not dismiss what he says because he does not have an employee tag. I consider him a voice for GG, just as if I were speaking. There is no claim that there has been no response, because I see him responding to the same questions in several threads with consistency and accuracy.

He said it very clearly (multiple times), so I'm not sure where the confusion is: "...split between 2D and 3D functionality". There is a Torque X 2D and Torque X 3D. They are both built from Torque X core, but diverge drastically: Torque X Doc Landing Page.

The CC build will not include the source code, just runtime as he stated (again, multiple times). If that is not clear enough, then please post a numbered list of one line questions so we can get it all out in one post.

#43 Sigh...

Quote:
What we're having trouble getting clarification on are the folowing:

1. How many TX 3.0 *engine* products will be released for purchase. One, or two.
2. If two engines, do current Pro owners have to purchase the 3D engine.

It's seriously like pulling teeth. The confusion for me is that there was one engine, and then 2 builders that were purchased separately. So I don't know if "TX3D" refers to an engine/builder package, or to just the builder. And if its an engine/builder package for each of 2D and 3D... which does a current Pro license apply to, if any.

Can you grok me, baby?

#44 @Wesc

Same question I kept asking and as you say it's like pulling teeth. The answers are all vague and deliberately evasive.

#45 Both questions were answered, no teeth pulling involved. The only answer that I didn't have was what the upgrade pricing would be for TX 3D if people already had the other licenses.

1. Two. One for 2D and one for 3D. They include engine, engine source, and builder.
2. Yes, if you want 3D functionality and visual editing.

If you want to work in code and port TX 2.0.0.0's 3D functionality to XNA 3, then that is also an option.

#46 So what is the discount price then?

#47 I still don't know or I would have answered that question when it was first brought up.

#48 @David: For me the majority of the confusion came in with the fact that "+ Builder owners" was thrown in with most of the responses.

Here's my take on where we stand:

If you are a current TorqueX Pro (No Builder) owner you will need to pay some sort of upgrade fee to get the latest version, when it's released. If you choose to upgrade you will have to choose between TX2D and TX3D.

If you choose TX2D you will only be able to use the engine for creating 2D games as all the 3D engine code has been stripped out.

If you choose TX3D you will only be able to use the engine to build 3D games as all the 2D engine code will be stripped out.

You have the option if you so choose to buy both the 2D and 3D version if you wish to do both types of games.

I don't think that anyone is trying to be evasive or anything. I think most of the concern at this point is coming from those of us who don't really care much about the builders, but are more concerned with the total cost of ownership for being able to do both 2D and 3D games.

#49 David: Answered, yes; answered clearly, no. Hence my asking for clarification...

Which, by the way, you've now resolved, so... um.... nebbermind. :)

#50 1.) Is there any benefit to pre-ordering "Torque X 3.0 3D" right now? I'm seriously debating buying (pre-ordering) this to remove some headaches, but with no ETA for release I'm hesitant about possibly throwing my money away right now for a product that won't be out for possibly months. Any reason why I should get in on a pre-order now instead of just waiting until release?

2.) On the "buy" pages there's no mention of ETA, discounts, or any bonuses that might be thrown in for the pre-order of it. And, as the person who started this thread asked... Will I be able to use any previous versions of Torque X until the full "Torque X 3.0 3D" becomes available after I purchase the $250 pre-order?

3.) <not a question> Thanks for all of your hard work on this software! I've followed GG's development progress with your various products and I think all of you are really empowering indie game developers (like me) with reasonably priced tools to make our game ideas come to life. I can't wait to get my hands on "TX3.0-3D"! Thanks!!

#51 in short

1) no
2) no

#52 So thinking about it a big reason they may not be able to announce when it will ship might be because they submit it, MS finds serious problems with it/rejects it and then they go back to the drawing board.

Wash, rinse, repeat. I can think of no other reason why they could not announce a date. Many games have to go through the process yet they still announce.

Or maybe they just put the news out there too soon to try and drum up revenue.

Either way dont be stupid and give them money early or put another way. Don't be like ME!!! :)

#53 @Eddie

If you pre-ordered and they took your money without giving you anything, you should be able to simply ask for the money back and then re-purchase when the product is finally released. After all you get zero benefits from a pre-order.

In most cases a company will not take money for a pre-order as the product is not yet shipped or available. Simply ask GG for a refund as they shouldn't have any issues doing that for you.

#54 Um, yeah. I'll refund the purchase if you want so that you can pick it up on release. We were just hoping it would be past certification quite a while ago now.

#55 David, is it having that many problems, that we can't all get a pre-release of it if we pre-purchased it? For me personally, I'd rather have the beta/release candidate, even if it changes some, as oposed to waiting. Especially if we're buying source, since the certification doesn't really mean much if we are free to change the engine anyway, so why wait? I understand certification for the binary only, but let those of us who purchased it get it already with a free upgrade to the final release once it's out.

#56 I do not know the specifics of what is happening with the certification, but I do know that we have a number of contractual obligations as currently certified partners with Microsoft (for XNA 2.0) and in maintaining our partnership certification for XNA 3.0.

#57 How is one to know when they are actually available such that if you click "buy" you will get it (TX 2D specifically)? I've spent an hour going through different forums here after downloading the "demo" only to discover that the demo is for an older product and not the one matching the "requirements" on the product page (ie, vs2005 versus vs2008).

As a future customer, I find it a bit frustrating to try and solve that kind of issue when a simple single line of text on the product page would have taken care of it. If GG needs to generate cash, that's fine... just change "buy" to "pre-order" so everyone knows ahead of time what they are doing. You could even throw anyone who pre-orders a free content pack or something for pre-ordering.

I'd seriously suggest some kind of disclaimer on the TorqueX product page indicating that it is not available yet, and then change that verbage when it is. It's a two minute change to the website and would probably make future and existing customers a little more comfortable about what's going on instead of continually trolling the forums to find out if it's actually available yet.

#58 Not fully related but i was wondering (after reading the doc) how exactly the functionality beetween torque X Core and the engines is split. Are the 2D/3D ENGINES mostly usefull with the BUILDER and most of the stuff is in CORE or (if i happen to want to do just code and not use the toolset) should i still get 3D to get most of the API?
To clear up my question , is most of the 2D (in the 2D package) and 3D (in the 3D package) api just sugar over CORE to make it easier on the builder or is it also interesting to consume straight from C# instead of consuming core? (Want to do 3D so wondering if 3D is worth it or if i should get 2D and only link to core lib)

#59 Something extra for the patient pre-order customers would be a nice gesture. I admit I had been hoping to get one of those nifty t-shirts to carry me over until release. However, shipping atoms can be expensive.

I like John Keen's suggestion of a content pack or somesuch. But everybody has to realize that it would be a gift from GG, and not an obligation.


The thing that puzzles me is the list of Genre Kits on the product page ( http://www.garagegames.com/products/torquex-3d ). If the only thing holding up release is MS certification, would it be possible to reveal the names of some of the "...many different Genre Kits."? Right now it just lists "FPS" and "More coming soon..."

#60 Kyle, I like that idea ad I will ask about it. No promises of course, but it would be nice to do, if possible.