Pre-Ordering TorqueX 3.0 3D

#21 Same here. I've only bought Torque X Pro based on the prospect on upcoming 3D features, not the 3D Builder (no offense or anything, but what I'm trying to work on is not the sort of project where I need pre-made levels).

#22 @Peter & Ali - Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you really want to know is will there be access to the source code without having to buy a builder package or if you will get upgraded to one of the packages with a builder? Just trying to clarify so if a GG employee checks in they know what it is they're trying to answer. Also, try sending an e-mail to licensing@garagegames.com and ask what happens to your existing license with the new package. Last time I e-mailed them, I got a response within about an hour the first business day.

@Ali - I think the only new features are Studio 2008/XNA 3.0 compatibility, the 3D Builder, some easier ways to use the existing features, and some defect fixes (though I did manage to dig up a REALLY old blog where Brett Seyler mentioned possible XSI Mod Tool compatibility). I'm pretty sure there aren't too many new features if any (I can't think of any unless you count the builder). I could be wrong though.

Brian

#23 @Brian

Yep that's pretty much it. The code base split makes the TX Pro license a dead horse. The sudden product change leaves a very bitter taste in the mouth. Especially for someone like me who has supported GG from pretty much day 1.

#24 I believe that the direction of the split is between 2D and 3D functionality and previous TX Pro + Builder owners will have access to TX 2D licenses without an upgrade charge while TX 3D will have a new license, though at a reduced price to previous Pro /+Builder licensees.

Existing Pro users with a builder license can "purchase" TX 2D for $0, I believe, since the builder and source have been rolled into a single product. I just tested this and it currently works this way.

I will need to check on the discount pricing since the store is still registering $150 with ownership of Pro and Builder licenses for a preorder of TX 3D (I just tested that as well). I'll check and if an upgrade price needs to be adjusted and just hasn't been done yet, then I'l add a support ticket for that change to be adjusted.

#25 Yeah, I feel screwed.

#26 @Ali - Why? Nothing has changed. You can still use the source code that comes with Torque 2D to use the 3D features. From what David just said is they're trying to fix the store so you get Torque 2D for free. You can still use the 3D features just like you would have before because the source still makes the same binary. So in your case absolutely nothing has changed other than you'll get T2D Builder for free. You're still going to get the TX 3.0 Source code (which is not 2D or 3D specific) and not have to buy an upgrade. Plus from what he said, you will actually be able to buy the 3D Builder at a discount if you eventually want to. You are getting a better deal than you originally would have under the old licensing so why do you feel screwed?

Brian

#27 @David

Thank's for the reply. It was getting rather frustrating here, trying to get someone to clarify what was going on with the TX Pro stuff. When the TX 3D discount is sorted out, if it brings the price down enough, then I'll invest in the license for it. Especially as you are saying that the package will be both the builder and the engine source code.

#28 @Brian

It sounded like they were keeping the 3D engine features into a separate source tree, TorqueX 3D. I got the vibe that current TorqueX Pro licensees only got the free update to a TorqueX with only 2D features. If what you say is the case, then I have no problems.

If it's not, though, then I don't know. I guess it depends on the upgrade pricing, but I always seen it implied there'd be 3D features in TorqueX alone, not be split into two seperate products. It would've been nice to been notified of this or something.

#29 @Ali

From my understanding, The free update seems to be if you own TX Pro and TX Builder. In which case you get TX 2D for free. If you own TX Pro you also get a (hopefully hefty) discount on TX 3D. The reason that isn't also free seems to be because of the TX 3D builder being bundled with it.

As far as I can gather both TX 2D and TX 3D come with source so are the equivalent of what the old TX Pro package was.

Additionally (if I am understanding this correctly) if you are a member of the xna creators club, you should be getting TX 3D for free anyway as that is why it is in certification.

It will be interesting to see the final state of my account after it's release, given that I both own TX Builder, TX Builder creators club and TX Pro. My creators club membership should then give me TX 3D and TX 2D anyway?!??

At some point someone from GG is going to have to sit down and work out what we get based on both the purchases we made directly from GG and the XNA creators club deal with microsoft. Otherwise there will continue to be a lot of confused Torque owners out there.

#30 I'm not sure about the contents of the specific packages, but I believe that the CC version will be the binary version with a license for Builder, just like has been the case previously.

#31 @David

So the TX 2D and TX 3D packages direct from GG do have source and the ones from Creators club are the binaries. Thats's fine as that was part of the original reason I got TX Pro anyway (the source).

#32 So just to be clear, the 3d builder is still currently unavailable? I tried it a long while back when it was in beta, but it was very buggy at that point. I suppose I can dig into the XML files manually, but I really like visual tools. :)

I don't suppose you guys can release a non-CC version that we can buy now? Probably not, now that it's already in cert. Patience is such a difficult thing.

#33 And what about people who purchased TorqueX for 3D purposes? I myself am getting the 2D TX3 when it comes out. However I believe users should be given a choice of free TX2D or TX3D. Not both but a choice none the less. Otherwise you are basically screwing anyone who purchased TX for 3D use only.

#34 @Braedon - This is not the case. When Torque X Pro was offered by itself, there was no option for a 3D builder. In fact, you had to buy Torque X Builder (Now TXB2D) separately. Anyone who was able to buy the original builder-less product would have had to buy the 3D editor anyway. The reason they are giving TXBuilder 2D licenses is because it is the closest package to what they had before that will give the source code to people who paid for it already. So they are giving TX Pro owners something for free. It's like wrecking a car that used to have an option for a CD Player (TXB2D), but now that your insurance is going to replace the car, the car company doesn't sell your model of car without a CD Player(Torque X Pro) anymore because they sell the model now for the same price as your old car had cost but with the CD Player included (TX2D). So they gave you the model with the CD Player for free rather than having to remove the CD Player from the car. Just because they are going to start offering satellite radio (TXB3D) as an option, they shouldn't have to give you satellite radio for free just because they stopped selling cars without CD players...

Brian

#35 @Brian-- but the thing is that there was a single TX engine. You bought Pro (or not) and then used your purchased 2D Builder with it, and waited for the 3D builder to be released so you could buy it nad use it with the engine too.

Now, it appears that there are 2 *engines*, so if you bought Pro and were able to use its 3D functionality before... the question everyone is asking is do you have to buy the 3d *engine* if you already bought Pro. We know we have to buy the builders either way; that's not at issue.

What we're having trouble getting clarification on are the folowing:

1. How many TX 3.0 *engine* products will be released for purchase. One, or two.
2. If two engines, do current Pro owners have to purchase the 3D engine.

#36 @Wesc - The new packages are not 2 engines. It's the same engine with a different included level editor. TXB 3D was going to be $50 to $100 more originally than TXB 2D so it is still a discounted price. I don't understand why everyone keeps bringing it up.

Below is not aimed at you Wesc. Just hopefully will clarify for everyone.

Old System:
Torque X Pro: $150
Torque X Builder 2D: $100
Torque X Builder 3D: Never was set but was supposed to be $50 - $100 higher than TXB2D which is in line with TGB vs TGE 1.5.

New System:
TX2D (Free Source that came with TX Pro + 2D builder): $150
TX3D (Free Source that came with TX Pro + 3D builder): $250

To get equivalent in Old system would have been:
TX2D = Torque X Pro $150 + TXB2D $100 = $250
[Minimum case]
TX3D = Torque X Pro $150 + TXB3D $150 = $300
[Maximum case]
TX3D = Torque X Pro $150 + TXB3D $200 = $350

Either way, you save money... remember again he said there would be a discount... my guess is they will probably shave off about the price of TX Pro... but I don't know. It seems to me the only ones who should be complaining would be someone who bought both TX-Pro and TXB at the original prices...

Brian

P.S. Sorry for the long post... I'm just getting tired of coming back to this thread and seeing people bringing it up over and over again and giving GG a hard time for giving everyone a better deal. The whole point of the free package was to give people who had access to the source code before access to the source code in future versions. I wouldn't complain after that because you got what you paid for originally plus some.

#37 @Brian Bond

Not sure where you got your information from. From reading the official GG line they state that they have seperated the 3D engine and the 2D engine out. They are no longer the same product.

The new TX3D is based on TGEA while TX2D is based on the TGB. The original plan was to add the 3D TX and the 2D TX together but, this plan was changed.

A lot of people (myself included) bought TX Pro on the understanding that it would include both 2D and 3D. When GG changed this and seperated out the two engines we ended up being stuck with TX2D only.

From reading your post, you actually haven't researched this and so have come to the wrong conclusion about TX2D and TX3d based on the currently available downloads in your account and not on what GG actually said about TX3D.

#38 @Peter Dwyer

Quote:The new TX3D is based on TGEA while TX2D is based on the TGB

Are you sure TX3D is based on TGEA? I thought that too, then realized there is also a T3D, not TX3D. T3D is the next release of TGEA, while TX3D is the next release of the C# TorqueX engine. I could be wrong but from what I was told by a developer and Director at GG, I don't believe TX3D is based on TGEA at all. It's still the same old C# technology as TorqueX, just witht he full 3D support finally added in, along with support for XNA 3.

#39 TorqueX 3D is NOT based on TGEA. TorqueX 3D is our next 3D XNA-based engine. It is in C#, just like in the past, and is built on top of XNA.

Torque 3D is the next generation of TGEA. It is in C++ and cross-platform (PC/Mac) and the will be the basis for our console engines as well (currently they are based on TGEA, so it makes sense.

Just wanted to clear up that misconception quickly.

EDIT:
Also, TX 2D is not based on TGB (Torque 2D). The engine differences are just like the above differences between TX 3D and Torque 3D.

There was confusion on this in the past because TGB came with a TXB license since the TorqueX 2D builder was based around the same codebase as TGB's editor.

They are not derived products, however.

#40 @David Montgomery-Blake

Seriously You guys all need to start talking from the same page otherwise I'm going to start thinking that the only reason for TX 3Ds existence is to grab more money from indie devs.

Here is a quote from the TX 3D description page

Torque X 3D is designed from the ground up to harness the power of XNA. Written entirely in C# and based on the proven Torque Game Engine Advanced, the result is the most powerful C# 3D game engine on the planet. You can code in C#, then run your game in Windows or on your own retail XBox 360 using XNA Game Studio 3.0 and XNA Creator's Club. Torque X is loaded with systems that make debugging, journaling game events and testing features much easier than with XNA Game Studio 3.0 alone.

Note you say it's based on the proven TGEA. Having seen the code for TX Pro. It is pretty much mirroring the functionality in TGEA and TGB so that statement in the description makes sense. XNA is a form of DX wrapper, so TX using XNA is kind of like a C++ program using DirectX. The actual engine design is more component based true but, the actual functionality such as terrain, physics etc. etc. are based on those from TGEA.

So I'm unclear why you are now saying that TX 3D isn't based on TGEA or that TX 2D isn't based TGB given that TX2D and TGB share pretty much the exact same functionality and even the same builder design.

At this stage all I actually want to know is when the TX 3D discount for existing TX Pro owners is going to be sorted out.