how i would like to use gg.com
by Orion Elenzil · in Site Feedback · 01/20/2009 (10:33 am) · 15 replies
i thought i would just take a moment and try to describe how i would like to use the GG forums and site.
first, a bit about me, as that informs how i would like to use the site. i'm a full-time programmer with several years of experience with the torque technologies. i'm at the computer most of the day, hard at work helping to build a TGE-based product that's the best i can make it. i also enjoy game development, and like to learn about what other people are doing and also like to share whatever knowledge i can.
for me, the GG site provides two main areas of value:
1) reference
often i come up against something i don't understand, and turn to the GG site for an answer. for example "what's that fourth parameter in function foobar() do?" or "how would i go about integrating library X into my app?". or just "what the heck is up with variable Z?"
80 percent of the time, these types of questions have already been raised and discussed somewhere in the forums, or some generous person has written a bit of documentation about them in TDN.
obviously the feature i need here is a good search function. the new GG search seems much improved over the old, but still has some bugs. once those are ironed out, i think Reference will be nailed.
2) community
this is vague, so i'll break it down a little bit more:
* getting help
i've apparently created 247 threads in the GG forums, and while i can't see a list of what they are, i'm pretty sure that 80% of their subject-lines end in a question-mark. that is, there's something i don't understand and need help with.
the garage games community is astoundingly talented and generous with that talent. when i tally up the pros and cons of various game engines, "community" is a huge positive in GG's column. (For comparison, check out trinigy's vision 7 page: awesome engine, but where's the community section ? there doesn't seem to be one, which means that when i run into trouble with the engine or have some wacky idea, there's a limited set of people to bounce it off of.)
it's unofficial, unpaid support, and it's often very high quality. naturally, my ability to get help depends on the ability of other people to give help, so read on..
* helping
the converse of the former.
here is where i think the current site design has taken a bit of a step backwards.
i would like to have an easy way to see new activity in the stuff i'm interested in:
* particular threads i've marked as watched
- the watched threads feature is currently buggy, but i'm sure will be fixed soon.
* subscribed forums
- as far as i can see, this is no longer part of the design. "unread posts" sort of covers it, but also not quite so much. frankly, i have little to contribute to certain forums.
* recent activity in watched blogs & resources
- this seems to have been dropped, but that's probably just a bug.
* recent new blogs and resources
- this is part of the new site, i think, but it's spread across "What's New | Featured Blogs", "What's New | Recent Blogs", "Blogs", and "Resources".
this makes sense for blogs vs. resources, but having three sections for blogs is confusing and inconvenient.
i check this stuff many times every day, during those one-minute periods when the app is compiling or whatever.
having all this information in a single page would be great.
* keeping abreast
it's cool to know what other folks are doing with the technology. again, the main features here are Watched Threads and Subscribed Forums.
the dev snapshots where a cool part of this as well.
so in summary, here's is where i think the new site design could use a little bit more thought: (ignoring bugs)
* simplified/unified area for seeing recent activity in: subscribed forums, watched threads, watched blogs, new blog posts, watched resources.
* watched items should get visual priority over new items.
* possibly a notion of subscribed blogs: when John Kabus or Ramen Sama submit a new blog entry, i'd like to get an email.
there are still plenty of bugs affecting site usability, but those are just bugs and will get fixed.
but if there's another round of iteration on the design, this is my somewhat considered feedback.
best,
orion
first, a bit about me, as that informs how i would like to use the site. i'm a full-time programmer with several years of experience with the torque technologies. i'm at the computer most of the day, hard at work helping to build a TGE-based product that's the best i can make it. i also enjoy game development, and like to learn about what other people are doing and also like to share whatever knowledge i can.
for me, the GG site provides two main areas of value:
1) reference
often i come up against something i don't understand, and turn to the GG site for an answer. for example "what's that fourth parameter in function foobar() do?" or "how would i go about integrating library X into my app?". or just "what the heck is up with variable Z?"
80 percent of the time, these types of questions have already been raised and discussed somewhere in the forums, or some generous person has written a bit of documentation about them in TDN.
obviously the feature i need here is a good search function. the new GG search seems much improved over the old, but still has some bugs. once those are ironed out, i think Reference will be nailed.
2) community
this is vague, so i'll break it down a little bit more:
* getting help
i've apparently created 247 threads in the GG forums, and while i can't see a list of what they are, i'm pretty sure that 80% of their subject-lines end in a question-mark. that is, there's something i don't understand and need help with.
the garage games community is astoundingly talented and generous with that talent. when i tally up the pros and cons of various game engines, "community" is a huge positive in GG's column. (For comparison, check out trinigy's vision 7 page: awesome engine, but where's the community section ? there doesn't seem to be one, which means that when i run into trouble with the engine or have some wacky idea, there's a limited set of people to bounce it off of.)
it's unofficial, unpaid support, and it's often very high quality. naturally, my ability to get help depends on the ability of other people to give help, so read on..
* helping
the converse of the former.
here is where i think the current site design has taken a bit of a step backwards.
i would like to have an easy way to see new activity in the stuff i'm interested in:
* particular threads i've marked as watched
- the watched threads feature is currently buggy, but i'm sure will be fixed soon.
* subscribed forums
- as far as i can see, this is no longer part of the design. "unread posts" sort of covers it, but also not quite so much. frankly, i have little to contribute to certain forums.
* recent activity in watched blogs & resources
- this seems to have been dropped, but that's probably just a bug.
* recent new blogs and resources
- this is part of the new site, i think, but it's spread across "What's New | Featured Blogs", "What's New | Recent Blogs", "Blogs", and "Resources".
this makes sense for blogs vs. resources, but having three sections for blogs is confusing and inconvenient.
i check this stuff many times every day, during those one-minute periods when the app is compiling or whatever.
having all this information in a single page would be great.
* keeping abreast
it's cool to know what other folks are doing with the technology. again, the main features here are Watched Threads and Subscribed Forums.
the dev snapshots where a cool part of this as well.
so in summary, here's is where i think the new site design could use a little bit more thought: (ignoring bugs)
* simplified/unified area for seeing recent activity in: subscribed forums, watched threads, watched blogs, new blog posts, watched resources.
* watched items should get visual priority over new items.
* possibly a notion of subscribed blogs: when John Kabus or Ramen Sama submit a new blog entry, i'd like to get an email.
there are still plenty of bugs affecting site usability, but those are just bugs and will get fixed.
but if there's another round of iteration on the design, this is my somewhat considered feedback.
best,
orion
About the author
#2
1) Sticky threads with FAQs and "netiquette": Not that I flame everyone who forgets what commas are for, but it would be nice to have stickys in the forums for basic FAQs for the new people, as well as the best way to get their messages across. It's not a big thing to do, but it goes a long way. And not everything needs to be covered in the FAQ, just the most common RTFM stuff.
2) Knowledge Aggregation: While searching has improved, I think what needs to happen is a push towards collecting the knowledge stored in the forums and tidying it up somewhere like TDN. Except maybe in a TDN that works.
Don't take that as a knock, but I've noticed that TDN is almost impossible to move around in for me, has horribly incomplete data (I reference Ed Maurina's book still), and really is not updated by the community, because the forums are where the information gets traded between members.
TDN started out as a great idea: Give us an area where we can fill out information relating to the functions we know about to help the community instead of repeating it on the forums. The problem with this is that the forums never stopped being used for their original purpose, and TDN has not been updated as thoroughly as it should have been (by somebody, though even I'm confused as to who that should be now). So we have massive amounts of information contained in the forums that we search like a knowledge base.
Maybe TDN should be revamped or maybe just shown some love. Maybe just dump the TGEA offline docs into it (even though they're taken partly from Ed Maurina's books). Even though I can search much better now, I get the sense that there is a better way to do this and still attach it to the forums in a way.
Idea: Maybe a button that can push a forum thread to a list in a related TDN article. Sort of like the "Report" buttons on some forums, but this would send the thread link to a TDN article it relates to (or multiple articles) and get listed at the bottom like a "Forum Threads that talked about this subject" section.
That would rock, and I'd personally use that button to update articles (of course you'd have to have a bit of logic to check that the link is already added, but that's trivial).
01/20/2009 (7:03 pm)
I use the site a lot like Orion uses it, and I agree with what he has to say. Also, I would like to make a (rather non-trivial)recommendation, as well as a trivial one:1) Sticky threads with FAQs and "netiquette": Not that I flame everyone who forgets what commas are for, but it would be nice to have stickys in the forums for basic FAQs for the new people, as well as the best way to get their messages across. It's not a big thing to do, but it goes a long way. And not everything needs to be covered in the FAQ, just the most common RTFM stuff.
2) Knowledge Aggregation: While searching has improved, I think what needs to happen is a push towards collecting the knowledge stored in the forums and tidying it up somewhere like TDN. Except maybe in a TDN that works.
Don't take that as a knock, but I've noticed that TDN is almost impossible to move around in for me, has horribly incomplete data (I reference Ed Maurina's book still), and really is not updated by the community, because the forums are where the information gets traded between members.
TDN started out as a great idea: Give us an area where we can fill out information relating to the functions we know about to help the community instead of repeating it on the forums. The problem with this is that the forums never stopped being used for their original purpose, and TDN has not been updated as thoroughly as it should have been (by somebody, though even I'm confused as to who that should be now). So we have massive amounts of information contained in the forums that we search like a knowledge base.
Maybe TDN should be revamped or maybe just shown some love. Maybe just dump the TGEA offline docs into it (even though they're taken partly from Ed Maurina's books). Even though I can search much better now, I get the sense that there is a better way to do this and still attach it to the forums in a way.
Idea: Maybe a button that can push a forum thread to a list in a related TDN article. Sort of like the "Report" buttons on some forums, but this would send the thread link to a TDN article it relates to (or multiple articles) and get listed at the bottom like a "Forum Threads that talked about this subject" section.
That would rock, and I'd personally use that button to update articles (of course you'd have to have a bit of logic to check that the link is already added, but that's trivial).
#3
Seconded. Forums should have a policy use/etiquette sticky.
Though I have to say that in the main, the GG community is almost always civilized and respectful.
01/20/2009 (7:44 pm)
1) Sticky threads with FAQs and "netiquette"Seconded. Forums should have a policy use/etiquette sticky.
Though I have to say that in the main, the GG community is almost always civilized and respectful.
#4
01/21/2009 (6:31 am)
There's very few flame wars these days- I was sort of leaning towards netiquette on using good grammar (instead of "u no wut i meen"), or how to post for help or a help-wanted ad. Those seem to be the posts that get reminded by a lot of people that can probably benefit the most. Of course, there's always going to be a few lost souls that choose not to read or just ignore the advice, lol.
#6
01/21/2009 (6:07 pm)
::shudder:: 
#7
Most normal forum software have stickies and annuncements areas. This one is custom built and isn't like any other forum I have ever visited. (or run ) This forum is more like a blog in a sence of the word. That's not good or bad, it's just different. I prefer the old style GG had here where new posts were marked, and the blogs were a different looking format than the forum.
Now, as for the search feature, this one is a tough one to get right. I don't think any forum software has it yet. Even the most popular forum software out there today can't get it right, and they have been making forums for years. I think in time, this one will work better.
edit: @ the rest of you.... ROTFL those examples are great.
01/21/2009 (6:38 pm)
Great post Orion as usual. Most normal forum software have stickies and annuncements areas. This one is custom built and isn't like any other forum I have ever visited. (or run ) This forum is more like a blog in a sence of the word. That's not good or bad, it's just different. I prefer the old style GG had here where new posts were marked, and the blogs were a different looking format than the forum.
Now, as for the search feature, this one is a tough one to get right. I don't think any forum software has it yet. Even the most popular forum software out there today can't get it right, and they have been making forums for years. I think in time, this one will work better.
edit: @ the rest of you.... ROTFL those examples are great.
#8
Of course i often wish to discriminate on stupidity...
01/21/2009 (6:50 pm)
"netiquette", Is one thing. But expecting everyone to have the ability to type out proper American English as an English Major would, or even the ability to spell properly, should not effect ones ability to comprehend questions and reply to others. GG forums are usefull for many people from all types of cultural backgrounds and educations. Of course i often wish to discriminate on stupidity...
#10
As Joseph said, you can tell when someone doesn't have command of the language, which is perfectly fine (the people that do post here with problems translating usually find people being very patient and helpful with them about it, I think).
It's when you get people talking like they speak on the street to their friends that they suffer, because a lot of people here stop taking them seriously at that point. And that's not just spelling, punctuation and grammar, but also typing "lol" five times per sentence, telling anyone with advice other than "b3sT 1d3a 3v3r!!!1!!!one1" to go away, and general unprofessionalism, etc. Some honestly don't know how to be professional, and that's where this comes in.
01/21/2009 (9:19 pm)
@Caylo: I understand the sentiment, but I'm absolutely positive that I made clear by the example that I'm referring to the l33tspeak crowd :)As Joseph said, you can tell when someone doesn't have command of the language, which is perfectly fine (the people that do post here with problems translating usually find people being very patient and helpful with them about it, I think).
It's when you get people talking like they speak on the street to their friends that they suffer, because a lot of people here stop taking them seriously at that point. And that's not just spelling, punctuation and grammar, but also typing "lol" five times per sentence, telling anyone with advice other than "b3sT 1d3a 3v3r!!!1!!!one1" to go away, and general unprofessionalism, etc. Some honestly don't know how to be professional, and that's where this comes in.
#11
Just wanted to distance the terminology of netiquette and the definition of "good grammar". I have a little brother who has Asperger syndrome and only communicates to a few people he trust because he is afraid of ridicule for the way he communicate, he is brilliant but misunderstood. Guess i did react a tad bit offended.
EDIT:
Also about foreigners; I have seen rude treatment of folk here on the forums who have trouble typing what they mean. But its far and few, and usually from someone 'new' to the forums that i never see there name after a few weeks or months. If you think about most forum reply seem to come from less then 50 of the forum users, who are all very nice to other humans.
01/21/2009 (9:37 pm)
I agree.Just wanted to distance the terminology of netiquette and the definition of "good grammar". I have a little brother who has Asperger syndrome and only communicates to a few people he trust because he is afraid of ridicule for the way he communicate, he is brilliant but misunderstood. Guess i did react a tad bit offended.
EDIT:
Also about foreigners; I have seen rude treatment of folk here on the forums who have trouble typing what they mean. But its far and few, and usually from someone 'new' to the forums that i never see there name after a few weeks or months. If you think about most forum reply seem to come from less then 50 of the forum users, who are all very nice to other humans.
#12
Agreed. I probably should have made the distinction clearer in my post.
01/21/2009 (9:47 pm)
Quote:Just wanted to distance the terminology of netiquette and the definition of "good grammar".
Agreed. I probably should have made the distinction clearer in my post.
#13
01/29/2009 (8:37 am)
hmm 
#14
@Everyone else - Great discussion going on here, which holds my attention further considering the posters (long time community members).
01/29/2009 (10:23 am)
@mdwatson - Provocative post =)@Everyone else - Great discussion going on here, which holds my attention further considering the posters (long time community members).
#15
Maybe even further than stickies on netiquette would be a user "rating" system? This has been brought up in the past, and it does have issues that can occur, but maybe limit the ability to rate to people who have been in the community a number of months (cuts down on accounts being created for a few days just to rate people down or up). GGE does similar things, though I haven't been there in months- maybe some of that functionality should be brought over here.
01/29/2009 (11:20 am)
Well, I think Caylo has a point: Most people that have "issues" dealing with others don't tend to sick around very long, and those that do generally wind up conforming. It would probably be hard to get along in a community like this if you grief someone for not being an English-speaker. People tend to see these things and make pretty accurate judgments about those who do the griefing.Maybe even further than stickies on netiquette would be a user "rating" system? This has been brought up in the past, and it does have issues that can occur, but maybe limit the ability to rate to people who have been in the community a number of months (cuts down on accounts being created for a few days just to rate people down or up). GGE does similar things, though I haven't been there in months- maybe some of that functionality should be brought over here.
Torque 3D Owner Novack
CyberianSoftware
I would add a comment on 2 things that result tedious:
1) Pagination. Its everywhere now, and kind of stays in the way. If its something that came to stay, please, add an option for those of us that dont enjoy it, to remove it from our lives.
2) Scrolling on summary pages. Please, put the "Whats New" info all in one non-scrollable page (just like before).