Torque 3D?

#41 @Vector: Your last post is more in line of what they should be if you expect to get serious responses. However, you also inferred that games made with Torque would look like shite (your words), that noone would pay more than $200 for the engine, that anyone who disagreed with you was a fanboy, and you called their input idiotic.

#42

Quote:
What TGEA offers new devs, is simply astounding, in terms of features, head starts and things like the support and the forums. So am I wrong for lamenting that this is being removed from their possible options? The argument that the obsolete engines are still available at the original rate has been covered. It's a bit of a hollow gift.

I really don't get your point here. First you say that what TGEA offers new devs is simply astounding, and then you're saying that continuing to offer it in lieu of having to spend $1000 on Torque 3D is a hollow gift. Why do they have to offer something for free in order to justify charging more for their new tech? If it's a good value for indies now why won't it be a good value a month from now?

#43 Vector, you said:
"Dude ignore the fan boys and their idiotic input. Check out the Source Engine from the Valve Corp. It has high specs, looks good, has realistic pricing, it's packaged free with their games and is free to use for indies. Has a good range of tools, a good online community and best of all, professionals use this engine"

You mean people besides modders still use Source? I mean seriously, Source has been obsolete for years. And I'm sorry, but the tools just plan suck. I mean Hammer has barely changed since '98.

And getting models to work in the engine is worse then TGE. Take this for example (quoted from http://www.dirigible-games.com/diary/?p=15)-
"Let’s take an example of importing a model to be used as a static mesh, importing the texture, then placing it in-game.

Source:

1) Export model to Valve’s SMD format (3 times - reference mesh, idle animation and separate collision mesh)
2) Write .qc file to define the model. Here’s a simple example:

// Output .MDL
$modelname ship1/hangar_column.mdl

$staticprop

$scale 1.0

// whole body
$body “Body” “hangar_column_ref”

$cdmaterials “models/ship1/”
$surfaceprop “metal”

// sequences: all sequences are in $cd
$sequence idle “hangar_column_idle” loop fps 15

//$keyvalues { “prop_data” { “base” “metal.medium” } }

$collisionmodel “hangar_column_phys.smd” {
// Mass in kilograms
$Mass 200
$concave
}

3) Compile model

4) Export texture to Valve’s VTF format (thanks to a third-party plugin for Photoshop. Otherwise, export to TGA and convert to VTF)
5) Write a .vmt file to define the material that the model is using (of which the texture is just a part). Example:

"VertexLitGeneric"
{

“$basetexture” “models/ship1/hangar_column_1″
“$selfiilum” 1
// “$bumpmap” “models/ship1/hangar_column_1_normal”
“$envmap” “env_cubemap”
“$envmaptint” “[ .2 .2 .2 ]”
// “$model” 1
}

I feel that I should point out here that I have got used to this way of doing things. These VTF, VMT and QC files have a relationship that can be extremely confusing at first. Having an incorrect reference in just one of the files, or having them in the wrong directory, will lead to the dreaded Purple Checkerboard Texture Of Death (i.e. the engine can’t find the texture to apply to the model)
6) Open Hammer, find model in browser, place in map and save.
7) Compile map
8) Wait for map to compile (Not strictly a step in its own right, but anyone that’s used to Hammer knows what I mean)
9) Load game, load map.
10) Admire work."

All that to get a static mesh into your level. I haven't had this much fun since modding Quake 1!

Seriously, I have seen a few people around here saying how awesome Source is every since this Torque 3D thing has happened, but let's face it - the only thing Source is good at is physics and facial animation.

Here's my challenge to you Source fanboys-
1.Find me a Source game with non-obsolete graphics (and please, oh please don't post pictures of Left4Dead).
2.Show me a professional game made with Source that ISN'T a fps (The only one I know of is Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines. And even though you may not be capable, non-FPS' HAVE been successfully made in TGE/TGEA. For example - Metal Drift [http://www.metaldrift.com/] Buccaneer, Dreamlords, RokkitBall, BLUR, just to name a few)
3.Get Valve to actually give you a quote on a license. Seriously, I would like to see on (IF they actually respond).

Now, not to say that Torque is the best engine or anything. But even at $800 (or something like that), Torque 3D is THE best value for indie developers (and please tell me what serious indie dev has a budget of sub-$300?)

#44 Just to be clear, I never make threats. I made a direct statement, based on your usage of the terms "fanboys" and "idiotic".

I did not say "If you say something like this again, I will ban you." I directly stated that you should act civil, even if it is opposed to our engines. If you cannot read that simple statement and thus choose to backpedal, fine.

Otherwise, you have been posting feedback with some useful points. We do not have to agree, but we are taking the time to listen. The moment you jump ship and use derogatory terms (and hell yes, fanboy is derogatory), it's difficult to focus on the content of your other messages.

By the way, this goes for everyone. But, back on topic:

Quote:Cutting the whole indie sector loose will only risk pushing them towards the many other free to use and not restricted options.

How are we doing this? There are Indies, Hobbyists, sub-AAA, and AAA studios that use Torque Tech. The cost of an engine does not exclude any one group from using the tech. It just excludes users with a super low budget, which we accommodate via our other engines.

There is no set price that is "Indie Friendly." There have been Indie games made using a $400 budget, and ones made using a $200K budget.

#45 @ no-one and at everybody at the same time:

just wanted to add some thoughts on the latest replies:

I am "Indie". I'm not "Pro" nor "Hobbyist". I'm Indie.

"Playing" with Torque during last 3 years made my life 100% dependent on Torque tech. And I would love to pay 1k for the license of any future version(s) of the Engine, because I earn more by working with Torque.
I'm still "under 250k/year", but it looks like in a year or so, I can break this level and would love to jump into "Commercial/Studio"-way.

Okay, let's think "you" are "true indie" without funds to get Torque 3D. Go and get TGEA - less than 300USD is not that much for a good tool to develop a game, even for presentation to publisher or even production. You can get funds at that time, and continue developing (or merging) your game in Torque 3D.

Torque 3D is the best-ever solution made by GarageGames in a whole ("years-of-developement-and-R&D") time of their (GG's) existence.
Yes, some things are better somewhere else, but hey, where you can get SO MUCH stuff (tools/sources/engine/fun/community/feedback) other than GG? My primary project is "still" on TGE1.5.2 and it's WORKING and LIVING!

I can only say that I'm "stuck" with Torque for the whole my life.

P.S. I'm experienced software developer in past, and indie MMO developer at present and hopefully in a future, so take my reply accordingly - I'm not trying to argue/push someone, just telling my own thoughts.

#46 I am a Hobbyist and the new pricing has placed it well out of my price range. I'm sure there are some hobbyists that can afford and justify $1000 for T3D, but I would imagine that most cannot or will not. Curious teens, married people with a spouse who doesn't understand, these are the folks for whom $150 or even $300 was "doable with effort" who will be lost at $1000.

Perhaps GG doesn't want that market anymore. Maybe we are too much trouble because our skill level is lower. Who knows? Only GG.

As has been stated earlier in this debate, there are other options available. C4 looks pretty nice, NeoAxis is coming along too. Both have significantly better pricing models for Hobbyists.

#47 This thread is really long but I do agree on one thing.

T3D does look like it may just be TGEA with a few shaders and new things. Maybe to the extent that it would be cheaper than $800 to add the shaders yourself (SSAO and the "wetness" shaders in particular are very easy to add).

But seriously the engine isn't even at the point that anyone can review or critic it properly. No GG "fanboy" can say its good and no "trolls" can say its bad.. its not out yet!

Anyways, I look forward to GG showing us exactly what makes T3D worth the jump from TGEA.

#48 Still waiting for the new blog like most everyone else, but Mikael Petterson pointed out that two of the south pacific videos are now online here: http://vimeo.com/groups/1622/videos/3992810 and http://vimeo.com/groups/1622/videos/3992822 and they show off a number of things from lighting, shoreline, river, road, physics, terrain, etc.

Looks pretty cool. Looking forward to the rest of the videos.

EDIT: All four videos are now in Brett's most recent blog.

#49 Hello,

If Gerald is the guy from the blog who did all of the videos of the custom coding on TGEA, then that is how or why T3D came into existance.. Most of the new features being mentioned about T3D that makes it different from TGEA are the actual changes that this guy added to TGEA.

http://tgeaenhanced.blogspot.com/

Add in all of Gerald's enhancements and you now have TGEA being repackaged as T3D.. or so it seems. The collada demo shows that the interface of the editor has been redesigned again or has a new skin/theme for the new T3D. Just going by the demo's and what I've read.. Otherwise I could be wrong.

Chris

#50 That would be Gerhardt, not Gerald :P

While Gerhardt has come up with some cool stuff (SSAO, wetness/precipitation, cloth), there's a lot more to T3D than just his stuff. Take a look at the GDC videos. The new advanced lighting system, fully dynamic PSM shadows, raleigh scattering, physics system, new GPU terrain system, web publishing system, and a bunch of other stuff are major strides forward for T3D that aren't related to Gerhardt's work (at least not that I'm aware).

#51 @xGamer: Your correct about them adding Gerard (sp?) onto the team, and him doing good things. He was a good addition to the team, but just off the top of my head, other new things in T3D include:

- New terrain which supports unlimited textures, normal mapping, multiple detail textures, large terrain sizes, higher resolution.
- Attaching groundcover to specific terrain layers.
- New lighting and shadows system, breaking away from the older lightmaps, allowing more lights and higher quality. From the videos, this was a huge addition. It also opened the way to the day and night system.
- A decal based spline road system.
- A river system.
- Material editor
- An abstracted physics layer with Physx support. Looked great in the South Pacific video.
- Web publishing, I loved the in-game web video.
- Improved water.
- General editor improvements
- Collada importing in-engine
- A number of DTS improvements. I don't think a lot of people looked at the TSShapeConstructor stuff in the Collada demo. Great stuff there.
- Torque Launcher

That's all in addition to the stuff that your referring to from Gerhard, which are all excellent additions, as well. These things aren't that hard to dig up, that was just from the top of my head. It should also be noted that Gerard mentioned from the very beginning when he started doing his blogs that he would be willing to work with Garage Games to get them integrated in the engine, but that they needed a good number of other changes (it wasn't just shaders as some people here keep alluding to), so he couldn't do it simply as a resource.

#52 Hi!

I'am new to Torque, and planning to buy.
I see that the Torque 3D isn't out yet. But there is a pre-order option.
So i don't have any Tgea version.
Should i buy TGEA or pre-order Torque 3D?
If i pre-order it, what will i get, a beta version Torque 3D?
And what if the full version is out, should i buy it again?

Thanks and sorry for my bad English.

#53 Viktor,
You have to buy TGEA before you can buy the Torque 3D pre-order. If you buy TGEA and the Torque 3D pre-order before we release Torque 3D, you will save $200 USD. You will also receive the very cool Torque 3D t-shirt =)

If you buy the Torque 3D pre-order you will get access to the Torque 3D Beta. The Torque 3D Beta has not been released yet but should be out in the next several weeks.

If you wait until Torque 3D is released, you will not have to buy TGEA but you will not save the $200 USD and you will not get the t-shirt.

#54 I see.
And how much will be the Torque3D final release? (If i not buy TGEA now).
I can wait because my project is only the design phase.
$800 or $1000 will be the T3D "advanced" (that contains the source code).

Edit:
And an other question. My first game will be a 3D RTS, i planning to buy RTS kit. In this case should i buy TGEA+RTS or it will be a Torque 3D version of RTS kit?
After that i would like to make an FPS, so later i planed to buy T3D.
But i think, now i only need TGEA+RTS kit.

So for 3D RTS, is TGEA+RTS Kit or T3D (with RTS Kit?) is best for me?

#55 well, considering that they havent announced a hint of a RTS kit, and there has been some comments that the final T3d may be as long as 6 months to a year. Then they have already talked about the FPS and Racing kits, so if you figure unless they release a bunch of material all at once (which is not likely given the current distrobution models of GG). You might be better off getting the RTS kit before its killed and learn the code and get a mock up, and in a year or 2 when they get it all worked up, you will be ready for the t3d kit(if its even in the works)

#56

Quote:Go Garage Games! I agree. Everything's going to be fine.

lol... what happened to Vector Sync's (not Viktor) comments? Someone smite him with the banhammer or something?

@Viktor
T3D after pre-order will be $1000 for the indie "Pro" version, which is the source code version.

#57 I think you should delete Vector's replies entirely if you have decided to ban him. Putting false words in his mouth... especially ones that are directly contrary to his posts, is a bit dishonest.

#58 hi!

Can i make brower based games with TGEA?
Or this feature will available T3D only?