What would you like to see addressed in Torque 3D?
by Matt Fairfax · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 01/09/2009 (7:10 pm) · 281 replies
Hi all,
We've asked before but I thought I would take the opportunity to build a fresh list of what you would like to see addressed in Torque.
This can be everything from a long-standing bug, to a resource that is so useful you find yourself integrating it over and over, to a complete wish for something. Whatever it is we want to hear it!
Please keep in mind that just because you ask for it doesn't mean that you will get it. I am making no promises but it is always helpful to us to hear what you are interested in or concerned about.
Our community is hugely diverse and something that is absolutely essential and of the highest priority to you and your game may actually be something that other games never use so don't take it personally if we don't address your specific concern.
I am going to make sure that everything specific that you mention gets logged into our task tacker so that it can be prioritized and reviewed even if we don't get to it for Torque 3D. I say "specific" because statements like "vehicles suck" aren't useful to us however if you can narrow it down to "FlyingVehicles crash when they run into the ground too fast" then it is something we can look into.
I am very serious about this...if you ever want a chance at having your concerns addressed then you need to speak up.
We've asked before but I thought I would take the opportunity to build a fresh list of what you would like to see addressed in Torque.
This can be everything from a long-standing bug, to a resource that is so useful you find yourself integrating it over and over, to a complete wish for something. Whatever it is we want to hear it!
Please keep in mind that just because you ask for it doesn't mean that you will get it. I am making no promises but it is always helpful to us to hear what you are interested in or concerned about.
Our community is hugely diverse and something that is absolutely essential and of the highest priority to you and your game may actually be something that other games never use so don't take it personally if we don't address your specific concern.
I am going to make sure that everything specific that you mention gets logged into our task tacker so that it can be prioritized and reviewed even if we don't get to it for Torque 3D. I say "specific" because statements like "vehicles suck" aren't useful to us however if you can narrow it down to "FlyingVehicles crash when they run into the ground too fast" then it is something we can look into.
I am very serious about this...if you ever want a chance at having your concerns addressed then you need to speak up.
About the author
By day, I am a senior programmer at The Playforge, makers of the popular iPhone game Zombie Farm. By night, I work on my own games as Night Heron Games. I am an ex-GarageGames employee who helped ship TGE, TGEA, Torque 3D, and Constructor.
#222
So I've got a serious question for you:
Should we keep the DirectX 8 GFX layer?
This layer is only useful to people who are running Windows XP SP1 or earlier and haven't manually installed DirectX 9. Windows XP SP2+ comes with DirectX 9 already included.
Among anyone even remotely serious about 3D gaming it should be extremely rare to find someone without DirectX 9 installed. It was more of a concern for the casual web browsing customers over at InstantAction and even there they aren't convinced that it is of any use.
Keep in mind that removing the DirectX 8 GFX layer would not remove fixed function support from the DirectX 9 GFX layer. It would just simplify our lives greatly in upkeep/maintenance and testing (less time fiddling with the DX8 layer means more time fixing, improving, or polishing a different system.
What do you think?
02/06/2009 (10:46 am)
Hey guys,So I've got a serious question for you:
Should we keep the DirectX 8 GFX layer?
This layer is only useful to people who are running Windows XP SP1 or earlier and haven't manually installed DirectX 9. Windows XP SP2+ comes with DirectX 9 already included.
Among anyone even remotely serious about 3D gaming it should be extremely rare to find someone without DirectX 9 installed. It was more of a concern for the casual web browsing customers over at InstantAction and even there they aren't convinced that it is of any use.
Keep in mind that removing the DirectX 8 GFX layer would not remove fixed function support from the DirectX 9 GFX layer. It would just simplify our lives greatly in upkeep/maintenance and testing (less time fiddling with the DX8 layer means more time fixing, improving, or polishing a different system.
What do you think?
#223
02/06/2009 (10:55 am)
@Matt: Make the DX8 layer go! I've stripped it from my version of TGEA already. The upkeep vs the bonus it adds is simply not worth it. Far from it, imo. 
#224
I wonder, however, what is the position on this matter of other engines? Torque is difficult to compare with others, but for instance, Source, Unreal, and lets say, Unity: their status on that sense would give us an interesting perspective.
02/06/2009 (11:10 am)
As you describe it, and I really trust on your experience, sounds like leting dx8 go, is the best option.I wonder, however, what is the position on this matter of other engines? Torque is difficult to compare with others, but for instance, Source, Unreal, and lets say, Unity: their status on that sense would give us an interesting perspective.
#225
for some applications it's important to support low-end machines,
but a low-end machine doesn't necessarily imply an old OS.
[ .. telnet telnet telnet .. grep grep grep .. ]
well,
here's some stats on OS use for vSide,
which we believe has a pretty low-end userbase.
XP SP1 is 0.18% of our logins. (ie 18 out of 1000)
so, yeah, i'd say go ahead and drop support for it.
here are the top few:
02/06/2009 (11:10 am)
jeeze, that's a tough call Matt.for some applications it's important to support low-end machines,
but a low-end machine doesn't necessarily imply an old OS.
[ .. telnet telnet telnet .. grep grep grep .. ]
well,
here's some stats on OS use for vSide,
which we believe has a pretty low-end userbase.
XP SP1 is 0.18% of our logins. (ie 18 out of 1000)
so, yeah, i'd say go ahead and drop support for it.
here are the top few:
27.90% Microsoft Windows Vista Home Edition Service Pack 1 (Build 6001) 13.88% Microsoft Windows XP Professional Service Pack 3 (Build 2600) 13.63% Microsoft Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2 (Build 2600) 10.68% Microsoft Windows Vista Home Edition (Build 6000) 6.23% Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition Service Pack 3 (Build 2600) 5.13% MacOS 10.5.6 (x86) 4.61% Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition Service Pack 2 (Build 2600) 4.33% Microsoft Windows Vista Service Pack 1 (Build 6001) 4.24% MacOS 10.4.9 (x86) 3.31% MacOS 10.5.5 (x86) 1.60% Microsoft Windows Vista Professional Service Pack 1 (Build 6001) 0.74% MacOS 10.5.4 (x86) 0.65% Microsoft Windows Vista Professional (Build 6000)
#226
02/06/2009 (11:11 am)
I see no need for DX8. Gaming has moved past it. 
#227
02/06/2009 (11:14 am)
It wouldn't bother me one bit if it went away.
#228
I was digging around in the Valve hardware results earlier but couldn't find any details about how prevalent DirectX 8 is (or Windows XP SP1).
John was talking about seeing if they could capture the same data from InstantAction but it sounded like it was such a low priority item that it probably wouldn't happen.
02/06/2009 (11:17 am)
Awesome results Orion!I was digging around in the Valve hardware results earlier but couldn't find any details about how prevalent DirectX 8 is (or Windows XP SP1).
John was talking about seeing if they could capture the same data from InstantAction but it sounded like it was such a low priority item that it probably wouldn't happen.
#229
Cutting-Edge, optimized, house-cleaned!!! and 'ready for serious battle & not for advertising mumbo-jumbo'.
Great thread.
Cheers
02/06/2009 (11:29 am)
Keep tgea 1.8.x around to sell to people who want Directx8 support...and make T3D as cutting edge as you guys can get it. Cutting-Edge, optimized, house-cleaned!!! and 'ready for serious battle & not for advertising mumbo-jumbo'.
Great thread.
Cheers
#230
From the Unity Web Player Statistics:
... not sure where that 21.2% of DX7 level hardware is coming from. It doesn't seem correct to other stats.
Lots of fixed function still out there.
SP1 looks like a very tiny segment here.
Now the Valve Harware Survey.... they cut DX7 and DX8 info from the survey... which should mean something. Looking at a Feb 2008 version i got:
Mind you those stats are from 1 year ago.
02/06/2009 (11:32 am)
On DX8 here are some stats....From the Unity Web Player Statistics:
Quote:
Graphics shader models
----------------------
DX10 4.1 0.9%
DX10 4.0 8.0%
DX9 3.0 25.1%
DX9 2.0b 1.9%
DX9 2.0a 4.0%
DX9 2.0 28.6%
DX8 1.4 2.1%
DX8 1.3 0.7%
DX8 1.1 0.1%
None DX7 level 21.2%
None DX6 level 3.7%
None DX5 level 0.0%
Software 3.6%
... not sure where that 21.2% of DX7 level hardware is coming from. It doesn't seem correct to other stats.
Quote:
Graphics shader generations
---------------------------
Shader model 4 (DX10) 8.9%
Shader model 3 (DX9) 25.1%
Shader model 2.x (DX9) 5.9%
Shader model 2 (DX9) 28.6%
Shader model 1.x (DX8) 2.9%
Fixed function 25.0%
Emulated software 3.6%
Lots of fixed function still out there.
Quote:
Detailed Windows versions
-------------------------
Windows XP SP2 49.5%
Windows XP SP3 20.9%
Windows Vista SP1 12.6%
Windows Vista 12.6%
Windows Vista SP1 64bit 1.6%
Windows XP SP1 1.2%
Windows 2000 SP4 0.6%
Windows XP 0.6%
Windows Vista 64bit 0.1%
Windows 2003 SP2 64bit 0.1%
Windows 2000 0.0%
SP1 looks like a very tiny segment here.
Now the Valve Harware Survey.... they cut DX7 and DX8 info from the survey... which should mean something. Looking at a Feb 2008 version i got:
Quote:
Cards which default to DirectX 8 Path on Source: 11.51%
Cards which default to DirectX 7 Path on Source: 4.08%
Mind you those stats are from 1 year ago.
#231
02/06/2009 (1:04 pm)
Quote:Should we keep the DirectX 8 GFX layer?Well, T3D is supposed to be the future of Torque, right? It's time to knock off the dust of the past and let it go. I say push the bleeding edge!
#232
02/06/2009 (3:01 pm)
hmm well someone just made a post about more then one core support for tge and tgea i think more then one core support for t3d would be real nice it would put my quad core to more use. :P i bet you already thought of it though as with all these new high powered tec stuff muti core support with that stuff will help allot. ram don't matter to much though i only maxed out my 4 ram with cry engine 2 mod for crysis i have 8 ram though once the new windows 7 comes out i might buy the 64 bit i had vista 64 at the start but vista got to many problems so i changed to my 32 bit xp.
#233
02/06/2009 (6:17 pm)
..not having multi-core support would be a bad decision. 
#234
If Torque3D is to be a GG's next gen game engine then I find it hard to believe someone would invest in a high end graphics card and system but refuse to upgrade to a DX9(Windows only) compatible OS in order to play games built with Torque3D.
Kinda reminds me of the hand ringing some video game developers went thru when they were trying to decide if they should stop making games that had a 3D software emulation mode like Homeworld.
Technology has improved and it's time to move with the times.
02/06/2009 (7:33 pm)
Dropping DX8 support means you upped the minimum system requirements to DX9. I don't see a problem.If Torque3D is to be a GG's next gen game engine then I find it hard to believe someone would invest in a high end graphics card and system but refuse to upgrade to a DX9(Windows only) compatible OS in order to play games built with Torque3D.
Kinda reminds me of the hand ringing some video game developers went thru when they were trying to decide if they should stop making games that had a 3D software emulation mode like Homeworld.
Technology has improved and it's time to move with the times.
#235
DX8....Drop it! ! ! Dont look back!!
Looking forward toT3D..with Shader 3.0 - 4.0 and Beyond!
02/07/2009 (5:06 pm)
Personally ..im looking for the Graphics to be cutting edge...and Fast!DX8....Drop it! ! ! Dont look back!!
Looking forward toT3D..with Shader 3.0 - 4.0 and Beyond!
#236
For ItBGames.com, no specifics, but should give relevant info:
Most people who just use a basic pc without any of the at least recent DX won't play most of the games anyway, so even if some of the XP users didn't have DX9, they could just download it, or it could be included in the setup for the game.
Hopefully that's convincing enough
02/07/2009 (9:50 pm)
@Matt: I'm all for dropping DX8, because (as a hardware example) more than 60% of the people who even visit our site have Windows XP. Over 80 percent are XP and Vista alone, and as a standard 95%+ games now ask for DX9 to be installed just to play them, most even include the redist. For reference(based on 13,000+ visitors):For ItBGames.com, no specifics, but should give relevant info:
Most people who just use a basic pc without any of the at least recent DX won't play most of the games anyway, so even if some of the XP users didn't have DX9, they could just download it, or it could be included in the setup for the game.Hopefully that's convincing enough
#237
02/10/2009 (8:40 am)
Another suggestion: Allow the engine to support Matroska video/audio. Just a suggestion, because I'm guessing it would be rather complex, if not at least full ogg video/audio support would be great. 
#238
Dynamic Weather
Dynamic fire propagation (influenced by weather system)
Realistic Fire
Physics (Most objects can be moved\thrown around, including bodies of dead non-player characters)
Full day/night cycles
Dynamic music system
Support for large player maps, without specific levels
Non-scripted AI
Radiosity, or non-direct lighting
amBX technology from Philips for special effects, with the proper hardware
02/10/2009 (4:49 pm)
some more features for T3D:Dynamic Weather
Dynamic fire propagation (influenced by weather system)
Realistic Fire
Physics (Most objects can be moved\thrown around, including bodies of dead non-player characters)
Full day/night cycles
Dynamic music system
Support for large player maps, without specific levels
Non-scripted AI
Radiosity, or non-direct lighting
amBX technology from Philips for special effects, with the proper hardware
#239
I agree that DX8 should go. Simplify as much as possible in that vein - remove all support for old APIs. Make the engine compilable without a selection of features, too. If you don't need video playing, let it be possible to strip out with a define.
02/10/2009 (5:36 pm)
Matroska is a terrible format. It seems every system I play it on takes ages to seek through video. Also, the tools aren't especially handy. I'd prefer support for formats which I can actually produce with click & drool tools on a Mac :)I agree that DX8 should go. Simplify as much as possible in that vein - remove all support for old APIs. Make the engine compilable without a selection of features, too. If you don't need video playing, let it be possible to strip out with a define.
#240
I also say that Graphics though be a priority. Also Not directX 9 But Direct X 10.1 Should be the target on PC with 9 as a fallback.
also Multi-Core is a Must. as is the ability to support 64bit binaries.
Microsoft no says that 64bit systems now about for 25 of the windows install base. And for Windows 7 64bit will be the standard push. not the 32bit. Even the intel atom is going to be in 64Bit Windows 7 Netbooks Next year.
If you are going to raise the price it needs to be brought up to date not up to what everyone else was doing 2 years ago.
02/10/2009 (8:27 pm)
mkv format is a nightmare. but I would be totally for some form of open x.264 with some form of surround audio or something. somthing that uses a standard .mp4 container though.I also say that Graphics though be a priority. Also Not directX 9 But Direct X 10.1 Should be the target on PC with 9 as a fallback.
also Multi-Core is a Must. as is the ability to support 64bit binaries.
Microsoft no says that 64bit systems now about for 25 of the windows install base. And for Windows 7 64bit will be the standard push. not the 32bit. Even the intel atom is going to be in 64Bit Windows 7 Netbooks Next year.
If you are going to raise the price it needs to be brought up to date not up to what everyone else was doing 2 years ago.
michael davis