New Mmorpg In The Works

#1 From your profile:

Skill3: Programmer (Beginner)

I hope you have several experienced coders working for you. An MMO is an extremely technical project. Without paid programmers it's neigh impossible.

#2

Quote:See you people next time for more news and info as it is near completion...

See you in 2020.

#3

Quote:See you in 2020.

Aptly put, Phil.


On a side note, I am working on a randomized C++ code generator that has a 2.45E-435 chance of producing the next WOW killer without any work on my part.


My fingers are crossed . . .

#4 Im begging you to rethink!

You cant do it.. im not trying to be negetive but trust me you cant... just go with something else anything else but an mmorpg.. I MEAN ANYTHING ELSE!

The mmorpg grave yard is starting to over flow into other grave yards.. its annoying :P

#5 @Deshaw
Take the input from the vets. Take that enthusiasm and refocus it to a realistic project before you lose it to the grim reality of all stary-eyed MMO makers of the past.

A commercial-quality MMO falls in the neighborhood of 75k - 500k SKILLED man hours in effort, minimum. With a small feature and content set, you might be able to even get that down to 25k. If you shoot for a runescape-quality product, you might even get that down to 10k-15k (but that's still skilled time, not beginner time).

Certainly there's space in the world for the next big MMO concepts. But it's probably not gonna come from the concept creator using an engine that isn't built for MMO's. Certainly you can use the engine to build a PoC for your MMO so that you can go find funding to give it a real effort. But that PoC will need to showcase your feature set that sets you apart from the other existing and on-the-horizon products. Many of those features will likely be technical achievements, none of which will likely be achievable with the TGE/A engine(s) without serious source modification (take the browser-based feature you already mentioned).

...off to write a resource to link to on posts like this so that we can educate the enthusiastic new game makers out there.

#6 Good idea Brian!

Alot of new game developers just get the engine and want to jump into their fav style of game, and for alot of people they have no idea the kind of work it truely takes. Even the ones who think they do alot of times are still seriously mistaken!

If you must, start your project out as a single player RPG using the MoM kit (www.mmoworkshop.com) and then evolve it from there.. though I think you will quickly relise how hard RPGs are.

Make some simple games at first or help with other peoples games why you learn.. dont jump right ni the shark pit from the start, really the only thing that will happen is you will become depressed and loose your will to want to make games!

#7 Ok guys , I'm going to have to take a stand in the other direction. IIRC - MoM took two man years to build. Let's presume for a moment that to OP is NOT trying to build a WoW. Let's presume that he is trying to build a small scale community style persistent world. There are a couple of routes that could be successful. Modding Minions of Mirth or building a fairly stock (meaning MoM-like) PW with the MMOKit is one. Another is building a persistent world with NWN (either 1 or 2).

Small PWs are possible for a group of hobbyists if they are dedicated and willing to learn the ropes.

What is not possible is:
All of the latest and greatest graphics. A large part of your art will likely have to be off the shelf, even if you have an accomplished modeler or two on your team.
A massive scale. Think small and constrain your scope.
A gazillion simultaneous players. Aim for a few dozen concurrent players and you have a shot at succeeding.

Even in the constrained PW class, the success rate for hobbyist teams is only about 10% (going by the failure rate of NWN PW projects), but it is a far cry from the ONE successful project (Planeshift) out of all of the MMO projects on Sourceforge.

The best advice for bright eyed novices is not "start with a 2D single player game" (as I've often heard), but perhaps "start by modding MoM or NWN and move up to the MMOKit and Realm Crafter when you outgrow those other choices".

#8 The best advice given to me in a long time was...

Doesn't matter if you do it first, do it best.

and now for my 2 cents.

Doesn't matter if you say your idea or not, I assure you if you are too afraid to trust at least a few people and let them be your team, if you try too hard to save the glory for yourself...

TIME will steal your idea, it will never come to pass, it will never grow.

Plant a seed it can grow, sure someone may steal it, or it may get eaten by the birds, but plant that seed, water it nurture it, protect it, and work at it hard, others will follow.

You say you want to make a game? MAKE IT. you will spend more time finding people who believe in you when you do NOTHING, than you will learning it ALL on your own.

Start the ball rolling, start heading down a path, THEN and only THEN can people Follow you.....

Until then...you are just in the way of others who pursue their dreams.

As the saying goes....

Lead, Follow or Get out of the Way.


You have a dream, a game to make?

Do it, doesn't matter if eq, wow, vanguard, lotr, etc is out there, use your ideas and make them
GOOD, people will come, and people will play.

There are many many basically simple games in asia tearing up the charts, and they are so generic, if an indie group were to take that approach here, and just get a market, chase their dream, it would be well rewarding.

If you don't believe in yourself, don't waste your time or others.

If you do, then never back down.

Chad.

#9 I still find it perplexing how people will go out of their way to tell someone their idea is not going to work, or cant be done. There are many ways to pursue this. He doesn't even have to write a single piece of code ever, to get this off the ground. Like Chad said: "get the ball rolling, and people will follow". But what's most important is to believe in your self and what you are doing; otherwise, others wont. There are other forces in the universe working on your behalf, that have nothing to do with these people (nay sayers). And have your best interests in mind. My question to the "nay sayers" would be: where will you be in 2020? Why does it even matter to you where he will be? Don't you have something to pursue? Or are you a self appointed authority on what's possible? Or are you just another pion who has yet to overcome your own limitations?


May the force be with you ;)

#10 Optimism and Pessimism collide. Perhaps for some, Naivete and Reason collide. Do you know how many forum posts like this we have pessimistically commented, with the vain hope of one bright-eyed novice proving us wrong? Yes, as the empirical evidence of the many MMORPG threads shows, no one like this succeeds. There's always that minute chance, and I will be overjoyed when I am proved wrong by that one savant.

Oh and Robert, did you not know that Phil was in fact the appointed authority on what is possible? Maybe you ought to do your research before you make flippant comments like that.

#11 There is no real point in being proved wrong by that one savant, if we have hopes of people succeeding then let us support them, if the hope is vain, let us stop hoping, thats the very same thing we accuse them of doing, hoping in something vain no? :)


I agree it would be nearly impossible to do a WOW or EQ single handedly, thats why most people say "Oh I have this super amazing Idea lets do it"

He just needs to give us reasons to do it :), saying he can't all on his own is probably true, but thats why he is telling us, he is seeking people to work with him, (or perhaps to work for him?)

we just straight up answered and said "No don't its impossible its too hard OMG OMG OMG"


Then we say....but gee we don't mean to be negative, but it doesn' t matter how politely we put it, or how positively we state our negativity, we are still being negative in the end. :P

I don't want him to lose that starry eyed hope either. But thats his choice.

Now if he would ask, What is required to make this dream come true, then he would be showing initiative and we could guide him, OR we could say, Here check out these resources good luck..

But when we let our opinions become facts, we risk them becoming truth too....personally I am just saying, I would rather there be more Postitive truths in the world than negative ones by the time my life is over....and to achieve THAT goal, lets encourage folks to do their best, not say "its super super hard" in order to discourage them... Make them realize the truth as it stands, but then shove them forward and say "Go get it Tiger", Not "lay down and die tiger"


They will give up on their own if their dream is too weak it should die, if its strong, why get in their way and be poo poo about it :)?

Chad.

#12 Wow Kevin, your a genuine ass kisser! I'm truly happy for Phil and all his success. But, he is no authority of what's possible for another human being. And no, I could careless how many forums you have tainted with your cynicism.

I hope ass kissing gets you where you want to be ;)

#13 Hi, Robert. Ok. As someone who is not a@@kisser. Lets be clear. I started out on much the same vien as these folks did. Now I am no programmer or artist. And i can get you a 2 year stretch of logs, most of which you can find here on GG in a monthly extraveganza. 99% of projects that come up here fail. Those are the numbers. Of the ones that succeed. only a small percentage of those create enough revenue to "make a living off of." Now of course you knew this. Now lets looks at the facts.

Most MMO posts start with something along the viens of I had a idea for a great mmo or I am just starting game development and want to make a mmo. So lets start there. What do you think it takes to create a MMO, actually no, lets shrink it down. How about a RPG or even a shooter. A day. a Week. A few months, maybe. Lets be realistic, Any game with any sort of polish or game play design will take in the range of several plus months of any genre.

Now ok so thats time frame. lets look at skill sets. What does it take to make a MMO, you would need to have a extensive knowledge of modeling, programming, servers, and a small host of other items (including advertising and web development; what you have a mmo, you have to advertise to get people to join) But lets say for a second that one of the many mmo posts have that one gem of a person, that can do it all. It can happen. So lets put it together shall we. We have several months of game development, combined with a person that can program, do art,gather a team to run a server. and so forth. Its not being cynical. when you look at the facts. oh and before you think that im some guy that hasnt done my research on this.

I have been around GG for 2 years. Do not make me start going to find every mmo post by person that want to start making one. Anyone who knows me can tell you. I deal with facts, not cynical heresay. I see very few folks that have the time, effort and drive to make a MMO happen. How many 15 year old or persons with a lesser skill set do you think can really make a mmo. A single player or a multiplayer game, possibly without to much trouble. And before you say, well there is a MMOKIT by the company formally known as Prairie games. I have yet to see a MMO be created or succeed using the Torque engine other then the Minions of Mirth. I know that Mr Oshea has a potential release of one. But Do you homework before making statements about what we know and dont know about the industry we are in. Yes there will be exceptions to every rule. When that day happens, We will take it with a grain of salt. look at the successes of said project and move on with our own projects. Particularly since 99% of developers consider their projects superior to the next project. (or else why be dedicated to working on such a project for any length of time, particular as a indie)

While there are some short comings in the area of developing a usuable MMOKit based on torque vs other languages, and in the area of team building in the case of MMOs, the reason there is a great "cynacism" at every mmo post is simply the odds are greatly stacked against that person to even start such a project, much less complete it. And by starting. Simply popping onto a website and on day one say, I think today ill make a MMO, is not a good first step. A careful designer would build a design document, learn the engine. And not post in the same day as the mmo, about how to find the tutorials to use the engine they promptly proclaimed they were making a mmo. Seriously look it up. A large number are exactly that.

Edward Moyer
Lead Producer of Fantasci Hidden War
www.fantascihiddenwar.com

ps and if your curious further about how much i know about building a team and making a large scale RPG (read MMO) heres my post weekly for 15 months
www.mydreamrpg.com/community/showthread.php?t=1594

#14 ... this is a 15year old we are talking about? Wow, you people are even bigger losers than I thought. No wonder only 99% of these adds see any kind of development. Anyway...

I'm not arguing the fact, of whether or not, a 15 year old can make an mmo on his own. It sounds like he was inspired to move from what he gathered here: so inspired, that he posted an add to express his enthusiasm, thats what is important. And you people swing at his legs! This is what I'm addressing. Its not about how much you THINK you know.

I could careless about your "statistics" and or "credentials"... good for you! I'm not hear to prove who can or cant do what, and when. People will put so much energy into telling someone (even a 15 year old), that they can't do something. Imagine if you put that same kind of energy into what YOU could do, and not into what you think someone else cant. That is my point!

Really pathetic :(

#15 @Deshawn: Here's some real advice on doing this, as I've learned over the years:

1) Understand what you're planning: Most importantly, you need to realize that this undertaking will take a good amount of time. Probably a few years of your life. And at the end of that, you may or may not suceed. Depending on how you approach the project, you may or may not come out of it with more knowledge, so make your decisions accordingly on how you spend that time, and if you think that it is worth spending it. Some people learn a huge amount during a failed project, and some people suceed- and are just as limited, knowledge-wise, as on day one. Your mileage may vary.

2) Share your idea: The simple fact of the matter is that most people new to game development truly believe that their game idea (setting, story, technology, etc) is so unique that they need to keep it from the world at large due to the immutable fact that if they utter even half of it, hordes of barbarian developers will plunder their idea and make a massive sea of clones of that game before they can get their own idea out. The reality of the situation is that most developers on any given site have about 5-10 ideas floating around in their heads that they want to get done, whether those ideas are unique or clones, and nothing is wrong with making a clone if that's what your goal is. The problem here is that keeping your idea to yourself only harms your prospects of gaining both constructive criticism (which allows your idea to grow and mature), and team members- because people want to know what they're going to be spending their own valuable time on. Now, while not sharing information is a turn-off, this also doesn't mean that if you have developed a certain technology that you need to post source code or it's inner workings either. Just tell people what kind of game you want to make, and enough information for them to make an informed decision. It's the respectful thing to do.

3) Don't assemble a team right away! That's right. Why? I'm glad you asked. This is a mistake I made myself, actually (twice). The problem with developing a game using the indie method is that of meeting the expectations of your team. If you assemble your team too early, then you'll have programmers sitting around twiddling thumbs waiting for you to give them tasks (that you have not even defined for yourself), and you'll have artists sitting around twiddling thumbs waiting to be given art to model and animate. And then with the artists, there is the double-whammy of them want to get feedback in the way of screenshots or video of their creations working in-game. When these things don't materialize, your team will begin to evaporate due to boredom and lack of confidence, or more assertive members will want to "take over" the project (I've seen this happen on a number of indie projects, and I usually left the project myself at that point). The better way to do things follows...

4) Have a meeting with yourself: Sit down with a pen and paper and hash out exactly what you want from this game (MMO). Since we're talking about MMO's, do this with the understanding that saying that you want to be 20 years beyond the current crop of MMO's means that you're matching your brain-pan against that of programmers who have more game development experience than you, and yet have not been able to produce those features. Also understand that it's not impossible, but any feature that requires research may add years to your project, and plan accordingly. Now also look at the basic features you want, whether you want it to be 2D/3D, how much content you want, and the quality/style of that content. As the quality of your game goes up, your time requirements also go up (and quite fast!). Shaders and realism will cost you dearly, whereas WoW style artwork is cheaper, and MoM style artwork is still cheaper (cheaper being in the time/money sense). Now use that pen and paper and write down everything you need, the backstory, etc.

5) Look for an engine that best fits your needs: Yes, Torque is a great engine, and no, it does not do everything equally well, even Garage Games will tell you that. You do get the source code with it, so you can put features in that you need, and script in others that don't need to be in source (or do both). But there are other engines out there that may make your life easier for the project, and you should take the time to look at them, ask questions of their respective communities, and look at how they fit your needs. Use spreadsheets if you need to, to compare them. Send emails to companies asking for clarifications. Then, when you know what you need to know, make a choice- and stick to it. Switching gears in mid-project can kill said project, so decide carefully.

6) What are you good for?: You'll hear it repeatedly, and it's as true as the day is long. If you have no skills other than having an idea that you want other people to work on, you're not going to be very popular with your team, and even if you are, you'll only hold them back. Indie game design is unique in that most people on a team wear several hats. A designer is usually also a coder or artist- occasionally both. They usually have some scripting knowledge (it's a huge skill for designers, so that you can do rapid prototyping of designs without tasking it out and waiting). Get a skillset, even if it's "just" Torquescript. In fact, if you want to be a designer, scripting is a great skill to have, for reasons already mentioned. Some sketching skills are good, as well as technical skills (learn to put up websites, set up SVN for your team, learn online team management skills). Learn to herd cats- it will help when you have to direct your team ;)

#16 Robert, this is the real world.

I know it's hip to tell kids they can do anything, just put your mind to it. However, things are not that simple.

If I came up to you and told you I am going to be the first man to live on the moon. When all I have is some model rocket boosters. What would you tell me? "Great, you can do it, don't let anyone discourage you". Or would you tell me how impracticable it is.

If you re-read his initial post you will see this isn't someone who set out to make a simple MMO, he was aiming for a complex game that I would expect AAA developers to struggle with.

Sometimes you need to pop someone's bubble so they can set their sights on more practice goals. This doesn't mean they need to give up on their dream game, it means they need to take some smaller steps before attempting it.

I think the main reason people like myself post in threads like this, is they see the tragedy of the situation. It's like watching someone careening off a cliff. Many of us have been off that cliff before, and wish to steer others back onto the right road.

Ohh, and Edward:

Quote:
I have yet to see a MMO be created or succeed using the Torque engine other then the Minions of Mirth

That hurts :(

#17 7) If you can, start coding or scripting gameplay: The fact is, you're much more likely to get a team assembled if you have some features of your game already working. People like getting on board with a project that is promising, and nothing says promise like saying "I have x and y done, and z is almost done". Noone in their right mind will fault you for using programmer art or stock art to test your gameplay functionality before you assemble a team. It shows that you want to get your ducks in a row. It also allows you to play with designs and experiment without your team waiting on you, and potentially leaving you. It also frees you up from waiting on artwork and artificially constraining yourself in that way (who cares if your RTS is multicolored boxes if the gameplay is right? You can always replaced those boxes later!).

8)When you feel that it's time, build your team: Now that you have a clear idea, an engine, skills, and some features tested/scripted, you're ready to start throwing assets into the game. Maybe you need programmers to code a few things first, so you can do a partial recruitment and just get them. Then, when they're done, or close, bring in artists and have them work their magic as well. It will flow faster this way because they'll be getting much faster feedback for their work, and everyone will seen the project progress faster (or it will seem to progress faster because all of the progress will be visual, rather than architecture in the background). You'll have a better understanding of what kind of art and which methods to make it work with the engine, and you've probably been lurking in the forums of art/dev sites to make notes on who to contact, and what to watch out for when looking for artists.

9) Testing: It might be that you had some people test some features early on, because even with programmer art, you want to know about how "fun" your ideas were before you commited to them. Maybe you wanted to get an idea of network and cpu loads on your server before you did any real beta testing. Or maybe you just waited until now because you like surprises (who doesn't!). In any event, you will absolutely need to test your game at some point- or at several points- during the development cycle. As with artists and coders, don't keep your testers waiting, or they will wander off like a kid in a candy store. Bring them in for specific purposes and durations, and then call back the ones that feed you back the best information. Or test with friends and family. Do some testing yourself. Do all three! But test, and don't be afraid of beating the crap out of your game to make sure it's tough enough to be released into the wild.

10) Promotion: Like testing, you've probably let word slip here and there about your project, and probably more than just a word as the time has been getting closer. By the time your game is ready to ship, you've probably had developer blogs talking about your progress out there (written in clean English- or whatever your language is, but not populated by misspelled words, lazy grammar, and internet acronyms, RIGHT?!). Maybe you've contacted a website or three for interviews when you had screenshots or video of beta versions of your game to show to the public. And you're probably being very promiscuous with a lot of videogame websites and press people now that your game is close to launching. Because if you're not, you're not looking for customers, which is exactly what you should be doing!

11) You need servers... And staff: An MMO is a service more than a game, and that little desktop that was humming away in the corner of your bedroom/office for the last six months will most likely melt into a pile of bubbling slag the minute you take it "live" during the game's launch. You have a number of options for what to do here, depending on your business style, and the financial resources available to you. You can co-locate your servers in a datacenter; You can rent servers from a datacenter (be sure you have full control over your servers, of course); or if you have your own office and know how to build a datacenter (a real one, not a closet that will need its door propped open with three fans blowing into it because you don't know about redundant cooling and power) you can keep your servers with you and your team. Renting and co-locating means that you don't have to staff NOC personel, while having your own datacenter means you have more control (which means you need to know about supporting servers 24/7). It also means that you'll need some serious bandwidth coming into your office (think DS3), which means money, and electricity, meaning even more money. And speaking of money, you need staff to help players who have trouble with the game, and maybe a "live development team" (if you want that), and technical staff, and that means payroll, taxes, insurance, rent, etc, etc. So at step 1, you also need to be thinking like a business manager, and learn your skills accordingly, or else you're going to have a rough time.

12) Now for the hard part: If anyone has led you to believe that the launch of the MMO signals the end of your work, you can go ask anyone who has launched one, and watch their faces screw up in disbelief that you would even entertain such a thought. The work has just begun! Not to scare you, but these are the things that every MMO out to make money (or not) deals with: Server/network failures, credit card fraud, gold farming, player harrassment, employee issues, marketing campaigns, conventions, technical support, hackers, laws in all sorts of countries, localization (if you want to launch outside of your home country), bugs that make you look like you didn't do all of that testing- even when you did, bad reviews, good reviews that result in player surges and you running out to buy hardware or begging your co-lo for more servers on short notice, blackouts affecting half the continent, bots, competition, alien abductions, Chuck Norris showing up at your office and being really pissed off at you. And the list goes on... as if you really needed it to. MMO's are social networking intertwined with games, and you need to manage the community as much as you manage your game servers. You will need to build up your business smarts if you want to make something more than just a PW that you manage for fun.

Now, that's a realistic look at your path, if you want to walk down it. Maybe it sounds too hard for you. Maybe it is. Maybe it's not. I'm not going to tell you that you can't do it, because I don't know you, and I don't care, because I'm too busy trying to walk that path too. But I will say that the decision is yours, and as a matter of self-confidence, if you're going to do it, do it right and don't be afraid of hard work. You could have a wild success on your hands- or a complete flop. But there is no certain way of finding out like trying.

#18 And i never said he was 15, i was using that as a point of reference, but if you want to catagorize that as such. so be it. Sure and i have posted with Chad on almost all of his posts. You probably wont read them anyway. but i think we have tried to answer his questions. The problem isnt the enthusasm. Its the ability to do so. Ill give you a good example of where I just recently saw some good idea planning. for a MMO. And me and Matt Fairfax (a employee of GG) applauded him for taking the correct road to making such a project work.

www.garagegames.com/blogs/33281/15674

and not like...
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=76910
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=70041
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=76879
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=78128
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=59091
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=78551

those just ahandful from one area. I can grab more if you like. I would also note that none of these persons ever started or completed said projects to date (they could be working on it behind the scenes, prove me wrong) the point is if you think we are pathetic for giving out factual advice to those that are not prepared. so be it. I am pathetic old man. I am not some guy that will just give out false hopes to someone that on their first posts and many of them without even their licences want to make EQ or WoW.

Its not about their age. Its about the attitude, the skillset they come to the table with. There are folks that are a whole lot more skilled then me or possibly you( but hey, you dont want to me to assume that you cant make a mmo) So, the logical choice here is to keep knocking back and forth about who is right and wrong. Heres what i have to tell most folks.

If you want to make a MMO, take 6 months and write it up. Dont come forth with a half baked idea and expect folks to mindlessly drool over it. Would you? Perhaps. I like some ideas too. But this is not our first BBQ. Show us other wise. Show me, rather. that we are just being pathetic by saving them tens or possible hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of work. And you know what, I guess that is what every one should do on their first project. Lets all make a MMO. Good idea or is it pathetic to maybe take it with some realism that maybe for the first game do something smaller to make a proof of concept. Most folks step up to game development and they dont know a { from a ( or a face from a brush. Its not bad advice to tell someone the reality of a project.

Chad is a exception. What i havent seen from Chad is the next leg forward. Its a great speech. But as you can see if you have been around. We have tried to gather folks to create a mmokit (not just a game) but a community based mmokit or RPGkit, but we cant even agree on that. When i see someone coming forth with a idea, and taking it slow. as i saw isaac do. I suggest the next step. which isnt go buy the engine. Its write it down. the first step to game develoment is not lets go build a mmo. Its i want to make a game, here is my idea. and listing a a fair and reasonable list of items.

and if you need more links Ill be happy to dig past the development and marketing place of the last few months. to give you more then enough evidence to prove my point. pathetic or not.

#19 Oh sorry Peter i said oshea, it was you :( lol i apologize , sorry it was yours that just came into beta, i thought it was his.!!!

#20 I can assure you, there is no tragedy in a young man being inspired to do something productive. Again (for those of you who are a little slow), the point is not about whether or not, he will have this MMO, RPG, FPS... whatever... done by the end of the month, or ever for that matter. What is important is that he was inspired to do something that doesn't involve bitches, and hoes, drugs, gangs, etc. He simply has been inspired to embark on a journey, where ever that may lead... who knows? That is not for anyone here to decide for him. Our job as a community of intelligent, creative, and responsible people, is to encourage that, what is in him, not without. Not cut him down---that is the real tragedy here! We have to assume he is intelligent and creative because he is here among others who are intelligent and creative, and share the same passion... right? So what makes you think he will not learn and mature as he goes?

Wake the fuck up people... there is a much bigger picture here!