Another MMO Question
by CodeWanderer · in Torque Game Engine · 11/08/2008 (3:53 pm) · 7 replies
Where do I begin... *sigh*
I am planning to make an MMO game and was thinking if TGEA is something I'm looking for. The matter is simple: I am an experienced C++ programmer, aiming to produce a fast and stable, but relatively simple MMORPG. I work alone so I am trying to get everything possible out of the game engine and then implement my ideas on top, as I obviously don't have dozens of years for development.
My main objective is to make a relatively huge game world and I was wondering if the basic TGEA server is capable of dealing with such things in its current state without having to modify it a lot. As far as I know the server uses mission files and loads them one at a time, so there are two options that come to my mind: to implement loading several maps or missions at at the same time or make one single mission of enormous size. So I wanted to ask the following:
1) How big can one mission be before it starts killing the performance? Is it possible to make one seamless zone in TGEA?
2) How dynamic is the game loading part? Will I have to rewrite the game server completely if I wanted it to work with several missions at one time?
If there is a better or a more simple solution, please let me know. I haven't worked with the engine yet so might be mistaken in how it works completely. I just want to know if there is any perspective in buying TGEA or if it's made for other things.
Thanks in advance.
P.S. Please don't suggest using the MMO Kit, as it's just not what I was looking for. Let's skip that part.
P.P.S. I apologize for my language and for any possible mistakes, it's just very late and I was really tired when I decided to post all this.
I am planning to make an MMO game and was thinking if TGEA is something I'm looking for. The matter is simple: I am an experienced C++ programmer, aiming to produce a fast and stable, but relatively simple MMORPG. I work alone so I am trying to get everything possible out of the game engine and then implement my ideas on top, as I obviously don't have dozens of years for development.
My main objective is to make a relatively huge game world and I was wondering if the basic TGEA server is capable of dealing with such things in its current state without having to modify it a lot. As far as I know the server uses mission files and loads them one at a time, so there are two options that come to my mind: to implement loading several maps or missions at at the same time or make one single mission of enormous size. So I wanted to ask the following:
1) How big can one mission be before it starts killing the performance? Is it possible to make one seamless zone in TGEA?
2) How dynamic is the game loading part? Will I have to rewrite the game server completely if I wanted it to work with several missions at one time?
If there is a better or a more simple solution, please let me know. I haven't worked with the engine yet so might be mistaken in how it works completely. I just want to know if there is any perspective in buying TGEA or if it's made for other things.
Thanks in advance.
P.S. Please don't suggest using the MMO Kit, as it's just not what I was looking for. Let's skip that part.
P.P.S. I apologize for my language and for any possible mistakes, it's just very late and I was really tired when I decided to post all this.
#2
doing seamless zone (mission) transitions isn't something TGE/A is equipped for,
and it would be a relatively complex undertaking so you might want to consider avoiding those in your initial target.
you would probably enjoy reading this series of articles from IBM engineer Hyun Sung Chu,
on building an MMO using TGE/A:
www.ibm.com/developerworks/architecture/library/ar-powerup1
www.ibm.com/developerworks/architecture/library/ar-powerup2
11/08/2008 (5:16 pm)
Fwiw, we've found that a fairly stock TGE dedicated server starts to run out of CPU on a moderately beefy machine at around 250 - 300 users.doing seamless zone (mission) transitions isn't something TGE/A is equipped for,
and it would be a relatively complex undertaking so you might want to consider avoiding those in your initial target.
you would probably enjoy reading this series of articles from IBM engineer Hyun Sung Chu,
on building an MMO using TGE/A:
www.ibm.com/developerworks/architecture/library/ar-powerup1
www.ibm.com/developerworks/architecture/library/ar-powerup2
#3
Now the picture is clear to me.
Stefan, I was not asking about "would be" performance of my "would be" game, I wanted to know the currently known capabilities of Torque's dedicated server in average, as Orion said. Capability to handle 5 players on-line and 5 000 is a big difference that depends purely on the initial software and those numbers won't change much if you have a little bit worse or better than average machine (since we talk about MMORPG the option of a simple home-pc should be excluded by default, I think). And I was talking about the server software all the time, as stated in my first post.
Yes, I understand that I am able to implement seamless zones or anything else I desire when I have the source but if the feature was not planned to be supported by engine I guess it would make little difference to me whether to re-make most of the code or make a new game-engine myself, wouldn't it? I'm exaggerating, of course, but I just wanted to know if there is at least some support of the "seamless world" system or not, otherwise I don't have the time to do it.
Nevertheless, thank you for your replies, I got what I wanted and have many things to think about now.
P.S. Sorry, but I found the search function quite useless as my question is quite abstract and the forum is simply huge. I already read a hundred or two posts that didn't help before starting this thread. :P
11/09/2008 (12:09 pm)
Thanks, Orion Elenzil, for your reply, that's exactly what I wanted to hear.Now the picture is clear to me.
Quote:
Performance on your server, client? What type of system is your intended target? Low-end or High-end? That totally changes any answer. And it totally depends on what you put in your mission and how far view range you got, scope etc. You can make it the size of earth and still have it lack detail. How is the population spread out across the zone and do you plan to use AI? These sort of things. Tickrate? Twitch action combat or other?
Stefan, I was not asking about "would be" performance of my "would be" game, I wanted to know the currently known capabilities of Torque's dedicated server in average, as Orion said. Capability to handle 5 players on-line and 5 000 is a big difference that depends purely on the initial software and those numbers won't change much if you have a little bit worse or better than average machine (since we talk about MMORPG the option of a simple home-pc should be excluded by default, I think). And I was talking about the server software all the time, as stated in my first post.
Quote:I was wondering if the basic TGEA server is capable of dealing with such things in its current state without having to modify it a lot
Yes, I understand that I am able to implement seamless zones or anything else I desire when I have the source but if the feature was not planned to be supported by engine I guess it would make little difference to me whether to re-make most of the code or make a new game-engine myself, wouldn't it? I'm exaggerating, of course, but I just wanted to know if there is at least some support of the "seamless world" system or not, otherwise I don't have the time to do it.
Nevertheless, thank you for your replies, I got what I wanted and have many things to think about now.
P.S. Sorry, but I found the search function quite useless as my question is quite abstract and the forum is simply huge. I already read a hundred or two posts that didn't help before starting this thread. :P
#4
And yes, I mentioned the search and how useless it was because I think it's awful that it stays this way for so long.
Good luck with your MMO game. :)
11/09/2008 (1:10 pm)
Oh I'm so sorry I didn't perfectly address your questions with the answers you were looking for! Maybe your post wasn't as clear as it could have been and I misread, terribly sorry.And yes, I mentioned the search and how useless it was because I think it's awful that it stays this way for so long.
Good luck with your MMO game. :)
#5
1 (b) as they do say, "you have access to the source so anything is possible". Prepare for a really tough ride on that one though.
2 (a) dynamic enough
2 (b) meddle with the scripts, should be capable of what you need there.
TGE & TGEA arent exactly made with mmo's in mind. Its possible, but would require a insane amount of work to make a end product that gets close to the 'mmo's out there'.
11/09/2008 (1:46 pm)
1 (a) not that big really, as the full terrain and every object in the zone is scoped to the client out of the box.1 (b) as they do say, "you have access to the source so anything is possible". Prepare for a really tough ride on that one though.
2 (a) dynamic enough
2 (b) meddle with the scripts, should be capable of what you need there.
TGE & TGEA arent exactly made with mmo's in mind. Its possible, but would require a insane amount of work to make a end product that gets close to the 'mmo's out there'.
#6
11/09/2008 (3:46 pm)
Oh, and your forget that most mmos that are out there, have 100-300 programmers and a fairly large budget to work with.
#7
to answer your questions
1) I currently have several zones that take a player about 35 minutes to walk across if they are not affected. But I think you could theoretically make it larger, at the cost of the iniatial lighting times. (there are ways around this, like prelighting)
2)Why would you want to work on several missions at once? Take it in managable pieces. 1 Mission/zone/city/town at a time (what ever you want to call it.) There is a reason why you dont see many games with seamless zoning. Even Oblivion has loading screens. And They pretty much have set the standard for large open views and scales. But when and if you can afford the 8-9k for SPEEDTREE like that have for their trees and visuals you see. Then you can do those things.
I was originally doing a MMO as well. But came to realization that most of the folks dont have the time to work together to make such a thing happen. There has been a few topics about it. But most point to the MoM kit and move on. I do pray you have alot of patience and time on your hands as well as a good team of folks for your projects. It comes down in most cases to needing to get your server code in line or learning Python. I hope that pretty much answers your questions with some certainty. Unless someone can point to any examples specifically using the torque. Im sure the every person that comes on here and their first post is I want to make a MMO.
Start Small and work your way up.
Edward Moyer
www.fantascihiddenwar.com
11/09/2008 (4:22 pm)
Let me rephrase that. Most MMOs, have completely rewritten the network and server codes, to accomedate the number of players. This includes the process called instancing. Which is not standard in torque, but requires a little bit of time as well as the servers to set that up. Most MMOs have a small farm of servers to run each zone. Accomadating the 100's of folks you see at any given time.to answer your questions
1) I currently have several zones that take a player about 35 minutes to walk across if they are not affected. But I think you could theoretically make it larger, at the cost of the iniatial lighting times. (there are ways around this, like prelighting)
2)Why would you want to work on several missions at once? Take it in managable pieces. 1 Mission/zone/city/town at a time (what ever you want to call it.) There is a reason why you dont see many games with seamless zoning. Even Oblivion has loading screens. And They pretty much have set the standard for large open views and scales. But when and if you can afford the 8-9k for SPEEDTREE like that have for their trees and visuals you see. Then you can do those things.
I was originally doing a MMO as well. But came to realization that most of the folks dont have the time to work together to make such a thing happen. There has been a few topics about it. But most point to the MoM kit and move on. I do pray you have alot of patience and time on your hands as well as a good team of folks for your projects. It comes down in most cases to needing to get your server code in line or learning Python. I hope that pretty much answers your questions with some certainty. Unless someone can point to any examples specifically using the torque. Im sure the every person that comes on here and their first post is I want to make a MMO.
Start Small and work your way up.
Edward Moyer
www.fantascihiddenwar.com
Torque Owner Stefan Lundmark
Usually, you would begin by searching. The searching feature got broken sometime last year and still stinks, so I didn't find anything. I know there are threads which go into depth about this, and I know I posted in them but I can't find them anymore. Hopefully, you can. :)
However, and do not take offense, most of your questions are impossible to answer because you'd have to give alot more detail - and still then they are difficult to answer because we would need to test this in a real environment first. Anythingelse is just guessing.
Performance on your server, client? What type of system is your intended target? Low-end or High-end? That totally changes any answer. And it totally depends on what you put in your mission and how far view range you got, scope etc. You can make it the size of earth and still have it lack detail. How is the population spread out across the zone and do you plan to use AI? These sort of things. Tickrate? Twitch action combat or other?
You'll run into precision errors if you make your zone too large. This is naturally because we're using floating point values to represent position. No, using 64 bit ones won't solve this issue, just delay it.
Yes, since you have the source. Is it trivial? It depends on your game. You could setup messaging routers and make zones communicate with eachother, ghosting to and from eachother so you can see players on the zone you're about to enter, and all that fancy stuff. But it's not simple, you'll have to deal with priority.
Ex: I hit this entity for 6 damage on Zone 1! But on Zone 2 where there's a ghost of this same object close to the border, the entity has already been destroyed, the update hasn't just arrived to Zone 1 yet.
Huh?
It sure wasn't made for this. But if you're determined and if you find it attracting to use, by all means it's possible. There are smaller scale MMO's (possibly larger than you intended, though?) made in Torque and they are in production. Minions of Mirth comes to mind, check it out!