Gg Community Mmorpg? Is It Possible?

#1 Ooh almost forgot this game would not have to be made with TORQUE even though that would be the most likely choice, i would say use nebula or torque because nebulas free and good and awesome in graphics and c++ too but torque is equal( maybe not so much graphic wise but networking it surpasses). it doesnt have to be torque because this is the community mmorpg not the TORQUE mmorpg

#2 Is it possible? Sure.

I have my doubts though if your grammar is any indication of your attention to details. Managing a community project requires communication skills that are unparalleled.

#3 Read the first post T_t

#4

Quote:Excuse my grammer i am writing this really really quickly and dont feel like checking it over

Exactly my point.

#5 @Cohen: Asking for people to not criticize you is not to say that such criticism is undeserved. Peter has a point, and as I said in the original thread, you may want to reconsider the scope of this. It is one thing for a few devs to put their heads together to brainstorm ways to address MMO shortcomings on a technical level, and quite another for them to sit down and try to create a new MMO (especially one whose direction they agree on). This is why I suggested keeping the community project limited to technology- which will still be hard to accomplish, but is both doable and worthy of the attempt.

#6 True and yea and by the way peter i enver said so that i would lead such a project, i just have the question about it. And yes i understand Ted keeping it to technology

#7 To clarify, I would love to see a community developed MMORPG using Torque. However for it to have even a small chance of succeeding, a mature, seasoned veteran would need to be leading the project. No offense to you Cohen, but you are just getting in a bit too deep.

#8 None taken :) and its true someone who has lots of experience in making mmorpgs or such with torque would have to lead this project and idont think there is anyone personally i believe if dreamer was still around he could have lead it if he felt like it but he doesnt go on the forums anymore and yes it would have a small chance of succeeding but then again it would depend on the goals wouldn't it. If the goal is to become the next WoW then theres like 0% chance but if the goal is to get the features people want in a game then it might have a slight larger chance(20% more ish)

#9 I want you to take some inventory of what your talking about mmos and games that you have regularly commented on and wanted to make.

216.116.32.49/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=75070
one of the many posts you made in the late spring and summer, pretty much asking the exact some question.

Examples of other mmos with pretty much the same game plan you have put forward.
216.116.32.49/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=76879
216.116.32.49/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=76910
216.116.32.49/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=59091

This is a example of a debate that you are proposing, note their is alot of folks that are alot more educated about the engine then you. Just becuase you think you havea great idea, getting such a idea to work, means you have to put the first foot forward and prove you can do it. Smart folks have tried. My best idea for you, is to sit down and start making your game, get your ideas together and start picking up some packs and prefabs to create a proof of concepts. In your current state, your going to have a hard time without proving to others, your compitance, Prove this, and you will get some measure of respect.

Cohen Read this Forum Post.
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216.116.32.49/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=78551

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Now im my case even I started with a mmo frame work, but had to scale back due to a similar lack of faith, but what i did that 99% of most folks dont do, is picked up the tools, and put together the material and started learning it myself. Granted i am no Peter Simard. but I focused on what i could do, and put forward phyical work. I regularly show updates of my progress as a matter of fact. And now 2 years later, were making slow and steady progress. Something to also remember that even with a team of 1-4 folks, a MMO or even a RPG will take months if not years to do properly.

Edward Moyer
www.fantascihiddenwar.com

#10 With no flame intended!

If GG got a dollar for every single MMO post put forth in these forums, they wouldnt even need to sell torque.. or its games.. they could totally just give them away for free and hope millions of more mmorpg posts would spring forth!

#11 I would like to see a community MMOkit, since the original people are dropping their support.

#12 Its been argued back and forth, and until someone with a) time b) some skill to put forward some good leadership qualities c)has the skills to actually program such a mmokit in a matter that is appealing to other that are looking for that kind of engine.

#13 There has been a least this year 2 requests for a MMOkit sponser'd by GG's.

Orginally there were two kits available. MyDreamRPG's one and Prairie Games one. A year or two ago MyDreamRPG stopped salling their kit upon GG's request, and Prairie Game's was to be the main supported kit available.

MyDreamRPG's kit used C++ and TorqueScript, making it an easy to use, and Prairie Game's Kit used Phyona language. Both required users to have TGE or TGEA licences and AFX (depending on version).

Now those that had purchased MyDreamRPG's Kit before sales stopped have use of their kit and support, there is two current versions available (one for TGE and other for TGEA), but these are only available to those orginal purchasers, and no new developers have access to the source code.

As for Prairie Game's, well not sure what's happening there, there's not product page or information on their kit. But in 2006 they had a new major shareholder buy into them, not much else is known about how to get your hands on this kit.

#14 Rumors of the death of the Torque MMO Kit appear to me to be a bit premature.

#15 Well I dont know about the mmo thing, but the MydreamRPG kit was probably once of the best kits around for folks that are trying to break into game creation with a RPG, the whole python thing, while great for mmos and some other more advanced items. For folks that need something a little less extreme. It was adaquate, with the only exception that is was never finished with the features listed. Now that aside I think that most of these folks asking for a mmo, would benifit from a solid prefabbed RPG kit to build from. This will encourage the building of MMOs and similar items, i am sure.

#16 OK, as an owner of TGEA let me request a Leader, Not for a full MMO, but rather a series of Tutorials and "Auditions"

Such as this.

Hi My name is Leader, I will make an MMO with you!,
1 we need terrains, so (artists submit their terrains competitively and have a blog to post and compare their arts and teach newcomers techniques, at the end of week 1 or month 1, the terrains are chosen for the game)

2 we will need characters, which launches a blog and tutorials to do modelling, if a TOTAL newcomer wants to try, have them make cubes and simple things just to try it out, teach them a few minor tools or direct them too the tutorials already present (use this as a chance to organize the 1 billion posts on how to "Do anything" in Torque.

Etc etc, for all the seperate aspects of the game, anyone who can offer something gets to be on board, and join the blogs/tutorials, and anyone who offers useful materials gets a Credit.

This credit then works in the game to showcase their particular talent/talents, if we find that some people far outshine others, we use a level based game wherein the TOTAL newbs get to create content and possibly even script for the first level.

Leader says "Here is my script for a simple AI" can you improve it??
And then people try it!!!
"Here is the Orc Model" can you make a better one.
Then they do.

BUT the point is use this as a CENTRAL Torque MMO project that others can improve and work on, similar to Linux's Opensource.

I wish, how I wish I could start this but my skills almost fall into the newb category as they are, I am a "Skilled newb" or a "Medium level" type in most aspects. But I couldn't do music or 2d art to save my life.

I would go to "Leaders" page, and look at the 3d models and animations, download the basics and start tweaking them to learn things, follow the tutorials "Leader's" helpers would set up.

Leader would get project management kudos and if the game sold a Huge portion of the profits for making it possible for me and others to learn.

Any assets anyone submits should be their own, and the game would be sold on an as is basis if at all, allowing demo's of everyones efforts and improvement for all, BUT would belong to the Developers as a community not any 1 person to resale, in that way it would be OURS not yours or mine, and thus not a single project that just one person with super talent could take from us and laugh all the way to the bank.

So, Follow the Leader.

Oh...yeah one more thing, this keeps Torque customers learning, and growing, and begging for new tools and engine features, for ANYONE at GG who can do this, it improves product, customer, and sponsor loyalties and helps your little Indies become all grown up Raving Fanatics....... just a thought.


Chad.

#17 Yep its a follow up Post, the Ideal is easy, the direction is hard therefore a bit more fleshing out.

Leader says X type of Game, I suggest one thats easy for newbies to offer content too.
I think a SIMPLE mmo is a good start.

First an outline of time, if anyone has done a full game before please modify the timeline and make tips/pointers and suggestions on how to improve expectations.

Additionally make suggestions for what levels of skill can be used, or will be needed.

1 City or town plus outlying area, a Newbie zone for all intents and purposes.
I would think that this is how it would go.

Schedule.

In the first Week "Leader" should have a breakdown of the required Assets.
Storyline requests, for a simple story.
Scripts, such as movement and ai.
Graphic assets, including models and textures.
Sounds, music.

Second Week,
By this time, amateur to professional writers can offer up snippets of story, we do a quick community vote, and take the best story, (its hard to not get a story we like, but remember this is a "group project" so we all can grow, we can do our story next time eh?)

Scripts will have to wait a little for art and story and to some degree sound I would think
I am not sure on this, please if you have scripting experience in Torque beyond beginner teach us newbies NOW about the wisdoms of scripting (by the way if you are good I will ask Leader "whoever that ends up being" to enslave you to our purpose.

Graphic assets such as models can be done by even a lunkhead like myself, I can make a cube, its that round thing right? I would think we can start throwing graphics in as soon as we get the MMO feel, Science Western Fantasy Strategic etc, we can vote on that first day out. Submit all models even if WE can't animate or export them, someone else can. This gives the most basic rank beginner a chance of pitching in. Don't waste your time making a chest if you can make a fully animated dancing bear eh? Leave that to us who need to learn, (Leader are you reading this?? Assign a rank system with honorable names, Beginner to Expert, assign tasks as suggestions but not limits to get your assets eh?)

Sounds etc, also we must have our theme first then we can start submitting to a repository of assets.

After the first week we will have submissions, please start NEW WORK, or if you submit former work explain HOW LONG IT TOOK YOU to do the work and how you have grown, We should have a wiki and a "Facebook" type of page where we can post ourselves up and create a community with our Rankings in various skillsets.

Specific pages that give tutorials from the "Skill masters" of Graphics, sound, scripts etc, that Leader assigns as being the best not just in making those types, but in teaching those types, and who have the time to Moderate pages for us. ....Hmm I think we need a good web guru too eh?

These leaders will put up our works for cross examination and improvement, inspiration.
We can post programs THERE that are free, and good/bad/indifferent to Torque.

I know many of these resources are out there, but the resource alot of Indies need most is leadership and a team.

IF and only if they are willing to follow the Leader, will this help them, BUT if its done as a community with a focus it will be a great thing for us all.

Leader, stand up, we seek you. GG approve Leader, we want to know they are for real, people stand up and demand someone to lead :)

Web page and server space please, wiki and blogs, facebook presences for the people showing activity and contributions, open material sharing so we can improve submissions by others, (I submit a cube you animate and texture it etc), Story lines and ideas.

And I tell you this now, if you don't step forward leader, I will do it and mess it up so bad Everyone here will hate you for letting them down ;) (Note: true leaders don't mind being hated, they hate letting you down")

Chad.

#18 3rd Times a Charm.

Lets finish off the outline shall we?

Once we have at least a place to store assets and the idea we will work on, Leader can decide a few things, like do we use ANY previous kit ( I would prefer no since then we all get to start out with JUST torque and build up from there) using OUR teamwork and skills.

After we submit the first weeks materials, and spend a few days letting Leader review it, and get ourselves some rankings we break into our "levels" and consider group or solo work, in a real job I am sure we would have to take a solid position such as Rigger or modeller or texture artists etc. But here we can lighten up a little, its our communities first Huge joint project right????

So Leader says Ok we decided on "Mid-eval fantasy" and we all spent a week uploading swords and shields and dragons and what not, and Leader says, Excellent but we need...

Knights, ponies, music, spells etc etc etc etc. and sets an outline for systems, then we start vying for those positions as well, if we complete them we up in rank if not we drop in rank, and don't get jobs we won't do or can't do yet.

By the time 1 month is over if a person says in their "field of choice" they should be out of Total beginner mode into Apprentice mode at least, (I would STRONGLY like to see apprentice/teacher pairings) find people with more skill you like and request to apprentice under them, Post how many apprentices you have time for and review their style of work and take them on.

Leader make sure we don't stagnate into factions by having all the fantasy lovers group up and leave out the talents of the gothic fantasy artists or the people who make more sci-fi feeling music. You know? Make sure we pool our talents to create a good blend. You are the person with the Vision, so guide us to something unique and fun!

Ok so 1 month has passed, likely with higher end talent we have a great working game, I would say Either use it as a base and break the community up into factions, such as, hmm all these swords and spells but I want more pvp, or I want more mounts and quests, or I want just alot of combat. Let the groups seperate and continue the game on their own path, assigning subleaders, we keep the Community as a whole and inspire each other but take the assets to higher levels allowing each group to show their Personal passions.

OR as Leader sees it coming together we Enhance the Original Idea by renewing our low end assets, expanding our game territory and having a team of storytellers work in a group together to create a sound whole.

Cross train ourselves in a second talent, I like 3d stuff, but am weak in sound, so I apprentice a rank or two just to learn their skill, Learning another talent lets you see how they work, and the troubles they face, a good modeller should understand a texturers pain, an animator should respect a modeller (provided they have never done all 3 etc), but a Modeller may get a good feel for why a programmer does what they do, and vice versa, I see alot of irritation, and almost arrogance by some posters who say "Its easy to do art, but Programmings takes GUTS, or Its easy to program, try learning to draw"
We all have our skills.
Somethings come easier to some people.
We are all putting our hearts and passion into this. How dare Any of us judge others and make them feel bad for what they love!

Some of the 13 year old coders there right now wanting to build the best mmo ever, may one day be billionaires, and some of the coders who can do it now may have different dreams, Lets play nice eh? :)

You want to learn, really learn? Then take the challenge to apprentice under someone who knows, You want to get better at what you do? I assure you teaching someone else, and working hard to improve them if you care about them, or at least not look foolish if you are ignorant about something will CERTAINLY make you better at what you do.

So, Leader we still need you, Apprentices we appreciate you, and Teachers, get on board. Its time to make the Torque MMO.

Any ideas on a group name at least to call ourselves by?

Heck if no one really will respond I have enough javascripting I can make a site to tally votes and opinions at least :P

Chad.

#19 Please note when reading the following I am not saying "Let me be in charge and do nothing" I am saying sometimes you need someone with fire to step out first and get run over by the bus, I am willing to do that, I have no former "Large scale" experience with the technology involved in a game like this, but I do have experience in motivating people and respecting skills and talents of people at various levels, and a fairly decent idea of the people we will need, in the end this can and should be a learning experience for us all, instead of stopping because "we don't have that kind of person" we find them or become them. Never say surrender, never say die, never say free lunch....though ...lunch does sound really good.....

Hmm its been mere minutes since last post and I feel energetic so one last post for now.

I will start, I will start using what meager skills I have to do outlines of the pages and develop the system, if you are interested in where you can help or fit in write me, if you have real talent in any of the needed areas
such as scripting, c++ for engine mods, texturing, sound etc please write me and offer to apprentice others at least an hour a week, and write up tutorials and wiki style pages. we won't be doing "Generalizations" we will actually write detailed walkthroughs of how to do minor things to allow our newcomers to do those things, this will help any Torque user but also allow our pool of talent to increase. We can then pass off lesser things as we advance ourselves, picture a single zone Game, not too problematic but when we decide too make it a huge MMO we will need others to fill in roles that once challenged us so we can move to higher challenges as well.

I am not skilled in Torque, I am good at 3d, I am fine at code, I am pretty funny at parties.....ok i exaggerate as I don't go to many parties, but I am still pretty good with humor.. basically I am offering to be a figure head, I will lead, will you follow? I mean this in no arrogant fashion mind you, let do this thing.

We Need.

1 Graphics Guru, someone skilled in all phases of Modelling.
1 Sound Guru, music, sound effects etc,
1 Scripting Guru, can you make Torque dance?
1 web Guru, namely xhtml css javascript wikis blogs those various skills you know what I want!
1 Story telling Guru, being published isn't important, being able to move the group to believe in your story is.

I would like to have at least 3-5 Masters/Teachers in each field who will take on apprentices of medium to high ranking, these would in turn take on 3-5

That would give us room to build a 100 person strong group right at the start.

5 Gurus, with 15 - 25 Talented Teachers, with many many apprentices of various ranks.

Jerks need not apply...wait wait we may need you too (Hey sometimes Jerks have great potential ya know?)
But it is a community endeavor, its reasonable for a Guru to say Hey Teacher give me 100 blocks of various colored wall that we can smash for a fun quest, then the Teacher says, Newbie A can make blocks, newbie b can texture them, and Apprentice C can watch over them, now if Newbie a and b don't wanna do their jobs, some other person will, and they will get more focus when it comes time to learn even more right.

I envision a good way of doing this is like so.

We give the Project lead some arbitary points like 10000, he splits that up as though it were project funds and says Sound you get 1000, story you get 1000, etc, (we can use industry standard wage comparisons, but I think some fields get really hurt by that)

Then the Leaders spread those points down as though hiring folks, by buying their assets based on the Projects needs, we can allot more points as needed but this makes it mildly competitive, now wait, you say won't newbies fall behind because they don't get trained because everyone is making money?
No, in fact each group will be awarded by the improving of the newbies skills, (I am not sure about this pay/competitive idea mind you) I just like it because it seems to add a good business sense lesson AND allow people to profit by spending their time teaching people new skills.

So, do you like, will you join, lets get a name for this group and show the GG community what they are missing out on.

Chad.

#20 One last thing, if GG would please give us a Specific channel for communications of we get say X number of members, like a specific forum? I dont' mean this just to be for us, I belive in the Indie spirit, and think if we can arrange say, 25 members? 50? how many would it take? It can be honored yes?

I would like to see GG input and help as well, sure we are Indies but that doesn't mean we are Independant, remember this is a Learning growing group not just a Lets make an MMO band of nutjobs :)

GG has a lot of great tutorials and resources on site, I would hope anyone who is willing too pitch in can offer their resources up as well, with credit for resource of course, like the forest pack I saw. We can use those items to get a good start, but still ask our group to make similar items in order to learn and teach others

I think it would be great to get someone who has done a pack, free or otherwise to give a tutorial or walkthrough or lecture video style to help out.

If I get a few replies I will start setting up a web page for links to resources that we can all use and some kind of repository to upload too, but I would like someone with more experience to manage that.


Chad. (really excited, lets do it, we gonna make a community, we gonna make a game, we gonna rule the Worl.......oops getting ahead of myself)