NextGen Gaming In TGEA
by Gerhard Botha · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 09/21/2008 (5:44 am) · 52 replies
Hi,
I want to start a new topic on next-gen gaming in TGEA.
Please post your ideas/discussions on things like,
Does TGEA provide an extendible basis to work from?
What new features are important to add to TGEA?
How does TGEA compare to the Crytek Engine and UE3 engine?
When are we going to see someone make something like GOW/GOW2 using TGEA (very possible if you ask me)
I have had many arguments over a beer or two about technology requirements to make certain games like
the ones using UE3 for example. My basic thought is that you can use UE3 tech and still end up making a crap game, in fact just go look on gamespot at some of the new releases and you'll see what I mean. A good game engine will provide certain 'expected' functionality like a rendering pipeline, collision detection system etc. but any unique kind of game usually have unique requirements which does not come in an 'out of the box' solution implying a development effort on the game developer's side.
It seems TGEA has a bit of a hobbyist's only engine' mentality attached to it, which I find quite astonishing! Granted, it will be difficult to convince developers with a budget for engine acquisition not to use something like UE3 giving the massive amount of success stories tied to it but it obviously comes at a steep price!
Anyways, I think you get the idea. Myself and Ruan van der Westhuizen has embarked on a mission to investigate next-gen possibilities in TGEA since the start of this year and have done some things in our spare time using TGEA.
Go have a look at our blogs,
tgeaenhanced.blogspot.com and ruanwest.blogspot.com
I want to start a new topic on next-gen gaming in TGEA.
Please post your ideas/discussions on things like,
Does TGEA provide an extendible basis to work from?
What new features are important to add to TGEA?
How does TGEA compare to the Crytek Engine and UE3 engine?
When are we going to see someone make something like GOW/GOW2 using TGEA (very possible if you ask me)
I have had many arguments over a beer or two about technology requirements to make certain games like
the ones using UE3 for example. My basic thought is that you can use UE3 tech and still end up making a crap game, in fact just go look on gamespot at some of the new releases and you'll see what I mean. A good game engine will provide certain 'expected' functionality like a rendering pipeline, collision detection system etc. but any unique kind of game usually have unique requirements which does not come in an 'out of the box' solution implying a development effort on the game developer's side.
It seems TGEA has a bit of a hobbyist's only engine' mentality attached to it, which I find quite astonishing! Granted, it will be difficult to convince developers with a budget for engine acquisition not to use something like UE3 giving the massive amount of success stories tied to it but it obviously comes at a steep price!
Anyways, I think you get the idea. Myself and Ruan van der Westhuizen has embarked on a mission to investigate next-gen possibilities in TGEA since the start of this year and have done some things in our spare time using TGEA.
Go have a look at our blogs,
tgeaenhanced.blogspot.com and ruanwest.blogspot.com
#2
09/21/2008 (7:40 am)
Very impressive stuff Gerhard. I don't think TGEA has a hobbyist only feel to it, in my view it's been down to the fact that until v1.7.x no one has really had the chance to really expore the capabilities and enhancements of the engine, as it has had the downside of lagging behind TGE but with Shader support, so it's never been a better time to use TGEA for a prototype as an Indie developer with experience, or commercial project - but it definately does also come down to having an experienced team to get the job done.
#3
thanks, Neil.
09/21/2008 (8:49 am)
Gerhard, how did you "add dynamic lighting to static meshes imported into interiors", lack of this really bugs me, is it an easy fix? thanks, Neil.
#4
09/21/2008 (11:16 am)
That cloth simulation code is amazing. Any chance you'll be releasing it? 
#5
09/21/2008 (1:06 pm)
With the cloth simulation, have you tried attaching it to a player model? 
#6
Lets talk about the questions you posed:
It also helps that TGEA isn't tied to a bleeding edge or wildly exotic rendering methodology. It seems to me that engines like IdTech5 with its "unique texturing everywhere" focus make the engine less flexible... maybe for arguably little gain... but we'll have to see Rage ship to know for sure. I don't think TGEA ever wants to go that route.
The only limitation with TGEA... and honestly any engine where you have all the source code... is the people using it. I mean look at Silicon Knights vs. Epic... i guess they expected "game maker" and not a game engine. :)
09/21/2008 (2:43 pm)
Great job Gerhard. Unlike many people in the community you did something instead of complaining about it on forums... hats off to you.Lets talk about the questions you posed:
Quote:Does TGEA provide an extendible basis to work from?I believe it does mostly because you have *all* the code... in an engine with DLL extensibility or worse... no source... i'm not sure the changes we've made here at Sickhead or the stuff your doing would be possible. At least not as quickly.
It also helps that TGEA isn't tied to a bleeding edge or wildly exotic rendering methodology. It seems to me that engines like IdTech5 with its "unique texturing everywhere" focus make the engine less flexible... maybe for arguably little gain... but we'll have to see Rage ship to know for sure. I don't think TGEA ever wants to go that route.
Quote:What new features are important to add to TGEA?Honestly alot of what i want is being addressed in TGEA updates that are coming up soon. You're just now starting to hear about some of it via Matt's plans, but alot is going on behind the curtain.
Quote:How does TGEA compare to the Crytek Engine and UE3 engine?To me TGEA is a straight up extremely low cost alternative to Unreal3 or Crytech. Of course it does have feature gaps and many of those are actively being addressed. ;)
Quote:It seems TGEA has a bit of a hobbyist's only engine' mentality attached to itI completely agree. This myth has mostly come out of the long winded forum threads where people with frankly *zero* experience and lots of free time argue that TGEA is unprofessional because it doesn't support "insert your pet feature here".
The only limitation with TGEA... and honestly any engine where you have all the source code... is the people using it. I mean look at Silicon Knights vs. Epic... i guess they expected "game maker" and not a game engine. :)
#7
When I get a gap I'll post a fix for you...
09/21/2008 (3:59 pm)
Neil, yes as far as I can rememeber the fix is not too complicated. Problem is that the static meshes are rendered using sunlight only. Solution is to add dynamic light rendering passes to the static mesh objects of the interior, basically need to find the best lights etc etc. I think I grab them from the interior light cache.When I get a gap I'll post a fix for you...
#8
09/21/2008 (4:03 pm)
Tek0, yes I have attached cloth to characters and it works a charm. You can attach cloth vertices to any SceneObject node, as well as character bones. You can also make attachment mount nodes in MAX or Maya and then at runtime attach to these nodes, same as mountpoints... Maybe a good idea to add an animation of this on my blog... 
#9
TGEA is what we make out of it.
Speaking about, some new stuff coming from Tridinaut in a short time that I hope will confirm that. ;)
09/21/2008 (4:17 pm)
Very impressive work. I'm following Tom's comment, congratulations on actually doing and not whining.TGEA is what we make out of it.
Speaking about, some new stuff coming from Tridinaut in a short time that I hope will confirm that. ;)
#10
Cloth and depth of field are top of my MOST WANTED list :)
09/21/2008 (6:54 pm)
Awesome work gerhard, i really hope you consider releasing / selling your updates, its some of the more impressive stuff ive seen done in tgea.Cloth and depth of field are top of my MOST WANTED list :)
#11
EDIT: Oh man, the water effects... DO WANT.
09/21/2008 (6:57 pm)
Yep, seen this blog, love it. I dearly hope you release this in either a resource or for sale. I'll be one of the first buyers.EDIT: Oh man, the water effects... DO WANT.
#12
09/22/2008 (8:33 am)
Oh wow.... Do you plan on resourcing/selling any of that?
#14
All jokes aside, I think it is time I comment on the engine a bit. I bought the engine sometime last year I think and it basically gathered dust, got busy with my work and my first child was born. Anyways I took the SDK off the shelf early this year, it was versions 1.01 I think. I did the bulk of my coding using this versions. Was a bit frustrated by certain things but nothing that could not be fixed. And then a little while ago I downloaded version 1.7.0 (I was a bit absent from the forums, this is the first time ever for me on the forums!) I must give GG a HUGE compliment on the 1.7.0 release (I think 1.7.1 is out???) it is way better than 1.01. The code has been cleaned up and a lot of stuff have been reworked etc.
So, to be honest I think it is because of the hard work that goes into the engine that people like me are able to focus on advanced features. Yes, I have done some major modifications and additions but I have free will do basically do what I want. The GG team has many other considerations when working on the engine, I can guarantee you a lot of it was boring and tedious but had to be done to get us from 1.0.1 to 1.7.x, reworking old code is a nightmare....
I'll try and post a solution for the dynamic lighting on static interior meshes on Thursday. BTW where am I supposed to do that?
09/22/2008 (9:56 am)
LMAO! That is giving me way too much credit!All jokes aside, I think it is time I comment on the engine a bit. I bought the engine sometime last year I think and it basically gathered dust, got busy with my work and my first child was born. Anyways I took the SDK off the shelf early this year, it was versions 1.01 I think. I did the bulk of my coding using this versions. Was a bit frustrated by certain things but nothing that could not be fixed. And then a little while ago I downloaded version 1.7.0 (I was a bit absent from the forums, this is the first time ever for me on the forums!) I must give GG a HUGE compliment on the 1.7.0 release (I think 1.7.1 is out???) it is way better than 1.01. The code has been cleaned up and a lot of stuff have been reworked etc.
So, to be honest I think it is because of the hard work that goes into the engine that people like me are able to focus on advanced features. Yes, I have done some major modifications and additions but I have free will do basically do what I want. The GG team has many other considerations when working on the engine, I can guarantee you a lot of it was boring and tedious but had to be done to get us from 1.0.1 to 1.7.x, reworking old code is a nightmare....
I'll try and post a solution for the dynamic lighting on static interior meshes on Thursday. BTW where am I supposed to do that?
#15
Amazing work you have there.
To answer your question about posting code howtos, Garage Games has a public resource submission section for developers who want to offer something to the community. Here's a link . . .
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=overview
09/22/2008 (10:15 am)
@Gerhard BothaAmazing work you have there.
To answer your question about posting code howtos, Garage Games has a public resource submission section for developers who want to offer something to the community. Here's a link . . .
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=overview
#16
Edit: Beaten to it :P
09/22/2008 (10:16 am)
There is a [url =http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=home]resource[/url] section, that would probably be the best place. It can then easily be updated etc and you can stick all the changes into a zip file which can easily be DL'd. Click on the "submit" link on the top right of that page to create one.Edit: Beaten to it :P
#17
09/22/2008 (10:23 am)
I should also mention that resource submissions are subject to an approval process (from what I've heard anyway). However, if memory serves, they should still be available while approval is still pending. You would just want to post the url for the resource somewhere on this thread until it gets the 'OK' from the submission moderator. 
#18
*Advanced HDR lighting and Eye Adaptation
*Parallex and normal map on terrains
*Volumetric Clouds and weather
*Intergrated physics(realistic water, soft body, rag doll, etc)
*Intergrated torque-script driven AI system w/ Dynamic Path Finding and Editor
*High/Mid Density Crowds(aka Flocking technology)
*Dynamic Fluid Surfaces
*Intergrated Matinee system
*Destructible Environments/ DMM
*Full Scene Cinematic Motion Blur
*Real Time Day/Night cycle
*Advanced Subsurface Scattering w/ skin shader capablilties
*Terrain Ambient Occlusion Maps
*Light beams and Shafts
*Multi-threaded rendering system
I have more that I can post later
Video links
www.gametrailers.com/player/30825.html
www.crytek.com/technology/cryengine-2/specifications/
www.unrealtechnology.com/technology.php
www.pixeluxentertainment.com/dmm_engine.html
09/22/2008 (2:34 pm)
Here are a few ideas I've had for TGEA enhancements. First, I just want to address some of the programmers, that have the skills and know how to accomplish some of these enhancements. I know some of you probably think that "why should I do some of this stuff, or this is just another artist trying to take my job"! That's is so far from the truth. I'm currently in school working on my programming degree. All of the programmers that do, or are working to improve this community this doesn't apply to you. I'm addressing the ones that hear some of the concerns of the community and has the resources and the know how but don't do anything about it. If I had the know how I would help out the community. I believe TGEA has the potencial to be as or just as great as the Unreal or cryengine. First it would start with the community working together to get some of the different ideas, content, and enhancement out to the community. With the right people working together the the possiblities are endless! All we need is the communities input, plus dedicated and hardworking individuals, and communication (people to post what they are working on, so multiple people don't work on ten of the same thing). If alot of individuals work to push some of this content out just think of the impact that would have for GG, not say that the games created with TGE and TGEA aren't any good but the quality of games done with TGEA would be off the charts. If I still haven't convinced some of you just look at this. I know that there are sereval programmers and artist in the community that do contract and custom work, but not everyone can afford some of the prices you charge. Let's say you have the know how to produce one of the content pack ideas or even an engine enhancement and a small company wants to contract you to create it. You chrage them $45/hr and it takes you 10 man hours to complete, which will make you a profit of $450. Now let say you decide to create that same content pack idea or engine enhancement and make it avalibable as a kit. Let say you sell it for $50 dollars and make it widely accessable to the whole community, one hundred individuals purchase it. That's $5000 dollar off of that kit. You'll in the long run make more money than you've would have made off of doing that same kit for the one company. Just something to think about, anyways here are some of the ideas and engine enhancement I have for TGEA ( most of this stuff was adopted from other engine like cryengine and Unreal I've also included links for a visual reference).*Advanced HDR lighting and Eye Adaptation
*Parallex and normal map on terrains
*Volumetric Clouds and weather
*Intergrated physics(realistic water, soft body, rag doll, etc)
*Intergrated torque-script driven AI system w/ Dynamic Path Finding and Editor
*High/Mid Density Crowds(aka Flocking technology)
*Dynamic Fluid Surfaces
*Intergrated Matinee system
*Destructible Environments/ DMM
*Full Scene Cinematic Motion Blur
*Real Time Day/Night cycle
*Advanced Subsurface Scattering w/ skin shader capablilties
*Terrain Ambient Occlusion Maps
*Light beams and Shafts
*Multi-threaded rendering system
I have more that I can post later
Video links
www.gametrailers.com/player/30825.html
www.crytek.com/technology/cryengine-2/specifications/
www.unrealtechnology.com/technology.php
www.pixeluxentertainment.com/dmm_engine.html
#19
I'm not sure if hijacking his topic is exactly the right way to go about promoting engine additions, even though he has some excellent additions that he has made.
09/22/2008 (2:50 pm)
@KoryI'm not sure if hijacking his topic is exactly the right way to go about promoting engine additions, even though he has some excellent additions that he has made.
#20
09/22/2008 (3:16 pm)
@Kory: You also might want to invest in some paragraphs... Personally, when I see a chunk of text like that I skip it :-)
Associate Konrad Kiss
Bitgap Games
What version of TGEA were you working with? Can you let us in on a few tricks that you've done? I'm curious about how you enhanced lighting with a single line of shader code. What are the chances of these features being available to the community as content packs or resources?
Amazing job.. damn.. amazing! Even my wife said "wow".