Intrest in a GG sponsored MMOKit.
by Flybynight Studios · in Torque Game Engine · 08/26/2008 (9:46 am) · 146 replies
I want to thank you guys for stepping up in the last thread thanks, appreciate the clarifications. I think it is clear that a lot of folks, myself included are very interested in seeing a kit that is actually viable for using in a production environment. The 2 kits that have been attempted outside of the GG domain had pros and cons in their own right but as inevitably happens in the indie world, the original creators either 'A' lose intrest or 'B' "take their toys and go home". (IE lock down all the hard work that people donate to the project and walk away).
In my opinion, for what it's worth, a GG sponsored MMOKit would be a fantastic addition to the GG family of products because it would promote a stable and controlled environment for indies to casually build their MMO projects and know that as long as GG is around they can always come back to their work. GG benefits be providing all of their licensed product holders access to any tools they need and colateral sales for products used in these ventures like model kits and developer tools goes up because develoeprs have the confidence in GG that they may not have in other groups.
I am posting this because it was mentioned in the previous thread that GG might be intrested in sponsoring something like this if there was intrest in the community. I dare say there -is- intrest in the community and I know that some people have already done some fantastic work in a TGEA fork of an MMOKit.
My hope is that by centering an MMOKit around GG we can bring developers together in their work rather than segment the community and lose hundreds and thousands of hours of work everytime a new kit comes and goes.
I would invite all of the other people intrested in such a kit to please post their thoughts here and see if there is enough intrest to sway GG into giving us a safer development environment here at the GG site.
My thanks in advance for everyones time in reading and responding to this.
In my opinion, for what it's worth, a GG sponsored MMOKit would be a fantastic addition to the GG family of products because it would promote a stable and controlled environment for indies to casually build their MMO projects and know that as long as GG is around they can always come back to their work. GG benefits be providing all of their licensed product holders access to any tools they need and colateral sales for products used in these ventures like model kits and developer tools goes up because develoeprs have the confidence in GG that they may not have in other groups.
I am posting this because it was mentioned in the previous thread that GG might be intrested in sponsoring something like this if there was intrest in the community. I dare say there -is- intrest in the community and I know that some people have already done some fantastic work in a TGEA fork of an MMOKit.
My hope is that by centering an MMOKit around GG we can bring developers together in their work rather than segment the community and lose hundreds and thousands of hours of work everytime a new kit comes and goes.
I would invite all of the other people intrested in such a kit to please post their thoughts here and see if there is enough intrest to sway GG into giving us a safer development environment here at the GG site.
My thanks in advance for everyones time in reading and responding to this.
#102
Pierre I am in no way in charge of anything but since your eye is on the MMO Kit, I would ask you for the "team/community" that is attempting to grow to point out some strengths and weaknesses of the MMO RPG becoming a Kit, and thank you for your time.
Andy, what are some ideas that you think will help people volunteer their time, while I don't want a sale product if we did something like "1 million points for the product we craft" and points go to all who do "Something" for the product, then when / if it sells it acts like shares that would be one way to entice people, but i really would like to see people with passion more than people with $$$ as a focus.
Not that making money is in anyway bad, we need to eat too, and making money from a group project would be great. But even just the experience and the resume building by doing such a project would go along way to enticing some folks.
Andy
____________________________________________________________________________________
In both the threads you've posted in about this you have shown some great ideas on how the team could function and work together, but that's not the stumbling block here as you can see we had thoughts on a process, offers of hosting and GG offering to lend support to review our idea once the team had put something together..... these threads more often than not die as this one did when people are asked to take the step from talking to actually doing something!
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pierre
_____________________________________________________________________________________
The Torque MMO Kit is Open Source under a modified BSD license. Basically, the Torque MMO Kit is free to use for Torque Game Engine/Advance + ArcaneFX owners.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Agreed to both of you, Actually Andy I have given ALOT of thought on how to get the ball rolling, my comments were meant to actually find people interested, vs those who just say "someone should do this"
Thats why I offered straight up, then no one could say "Thats great Chad, but I don't see you offering"
I didn't really expect anyone to just say, Great Chad is now doing this so we can all relax, but I was kinda hoping someone would say, Alright, we got server space, lets start throwing the Idea Ball around and see what happens.
And you Did that, and so did Pierre, thank you.
Pierre, I have considered the MMO kit in fact, and on a purely technical side I think it would be a great boon to work with, as would any of the other freebies out there, we could pick and choose or moderate anothers base.
In truth my "Personal" Preference would be to see a new kit, using ideas from others but founded on the best hopes/ideas presented here, if the MMO kit really meets ALL our ideals fantastic, but if we want new terrain generation, finer placement objects, improved Torque GUI interaction, and you name it, it may be harder to rewrite than to start anew.
That is where we would have to defer to experts in each field and go from there.
Ironically the people we need most, need us the least, namely people who can put these kits together, shouldn't have to waste time to make it easier for people who don't CARE to learn about how to do stuff.
HOWEVER, Thats if we were purely cynical about the matter.
I don't think Indie's are, what I think is if we make this a true community effort, the experts will be glad to throw time to train newbies, the newbies will work hard to produce so they can learn and grow.
That is my belief.
I am willing to offer MY time based on that belief, that we can structure it as a community, so instead of wasting time with what we would like, we can post what we need,
HI Andy, I need a Thingamijigger whatsistnotsis, can you do it?
No way Chad, you are nuts.....but wait I do know a guy who can.
or Chad, can you do that, and I say ummm no :P but someone else steps up to bat.
We don't even need to do a great job, what we need is the passion to do the job period, the experience will come with time.
Sure, if we want we can exclude ourselves too just experts and never do anything with anyone else.
And we may end up with something sellable. Or they may just quit and its square one again.
But I think if we make this a community developement project, open source style we have something.
And I say all this yes Ideally..... but an Ideal while it may seem fancy, or unrealistic....is still a Goal.
I repeat, an Ideal is a Goal.
I will now rest, go to church, come home, do my homework, and start putting up some kind of Voting poll on my website, that way we can ask the community what kind of system we expect to build, and where we want it to go, I will gather all the ideas on this forum and present them laid out, and figure out some kind of feedback system and once its done I will post feedback here on a regular basis as too what people what/need and what THEY can offer the team.
If you think thats a waste of time... ;) Tell me what you want instead, I may not have the ability to write an engine, or to do all things in my own power.
I do know how to stay passionate and encourage others, and to find ways over and around and through obstacles.
I believe the first step to get people to volunteer their time is to know it won't be wasted, To believe it will grow. That the effort will matter even if it fails.
The second step is to honor their efforts so it doesn't fail.
Thats what I believe!
Chad.
11/16/2008 (4:07 am)
Thanks Andy, I will adress Why I did the messages that way and tell you what I am doing in part to solve the issues, and Pierre I would like to hear more of your thoughts on how to modify the MMORPG to a base MMOKIT, though I would prefer a new kit that belongs to the community more than a sale product that causes people to buy yet more, I think we can all benefit by starting ground up and growing as a community, however if we have nothing to work with it may leave us starving to death before we start a project.Pierre I am in no way in charge of anything but since your eye is on the MMO Kit, I would ask you for the "team/community" that is attempting to grow to point out some strengths and weaknesses of the MMO RPG becoming a Kit, and thank you for your time.
Andy, what are some ideas that you think will help people volunteer their time, while I don't want a sale product if we did something like "1 million points for the product we craft" and points go to all who do "Something" for the product, then when / if it sells it acts like shares that would be one way to entice people, but i really would like to see people with passion more than people with $$$ as a focus.
Not that making money is in anyway bad, we need to eat too, and making money from a group project would be great. But even just the experience and the resume building by doing such a project would go along way to enticing some folks.
Andy
____________________________________________________________________________________
In both the threads you've posted in about this you have shown some great ideas on how the team could function and work together, but that's not the stumbling block here as you can see we had thoughts on a process, offers of hosting and GG offering to lend support to review our idea once the team had put something together..... these threads more often than not die as this one did when people are asked to take the step from talking to actually doing something!
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pierre
_____________________________________________________________________________________
The Torque MMO Kit is Open Source under a modified BSD license. Basically, the Torque MMO Kit is free to use for Torque Game Engine/Advance + ArcaneFX owners.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Agreed to both of you, Actually Andy I have given ALOT of thought on how to get the ball rolling, my comments were meant to actually find people interested, vs those who just say "someone should do this"
Thats why I offered straight up, then no one could say "Thats great Chad, but I don't see you offering"
I didn't really expect anyone to just say, Great Chad is now doing this so we can all relax, but I was kinda hoping someone would say, Alright, we got server space, lets start throwing the Idea Ball around and see what happens.
And you Did that, and so did Pierre, thank you.
Pierre, I have considered the MMO kit in fact, and on a purely technical side I think it would be a great boon to work with, as would any of the other freebies out there, we could pick and choose or moderate anothers base.
In truth my "Personal" Preference would be to see a new kit, using ideas from others but founded on the best hopes/ideas presented here, if the MMO kit really meets ALL our ideals fantastic, but if we want new terrain generation, finer placement objects, improved Torque GUI interaction, and you name it, it may be harder to rewrite than to start anew.
That is where we would have to defer to experts in each field and go from there.
Ironically the people we need most, need us the least, namely people who can put these kits together, shouldn't have to waste time to make it easier for people who don't CARE to learn about how to do stuff.
HOWEVER, Thats if we were purely cynical about the matter.
I don't think Indie's are, what I think is if we make this a true community effort, the experts will be glad to throw time to train newbies, the newbies will work hard to produce so they can learn and grow.
That is my belief.
I am willing to offer MY time based on that belief, that we can structure it as a community, so instead of wasting time with what we would like, we can post what we need,
HI Andy, I need a Thingamijigger whatsistnotsis, can you do it?
No way Chad, you are nuts.....but wait I do know a guy who can.
or Chad, can you do that, and I say ummm no :P but someone else steps up to bat.
We don't even need to do a great job, what we need is the passion to do the job period, the experience will come with time.
Sure, if we want we can exclude ourselves too just experts and never do anything with anyone else.
And we may end up with something sellable. Or they may just quit and its square one again.
But I think if we make this a community developement project, open source style we have something.
And I say all this yes Ideally..... but an Ideal while it may seem fancy, or unrealistic....is still a Goal.
I repeat, an Ideal is a Goal.
I will now rest, go to church, come home, do my homework, and start putting up some kind of Voting poll on my website, that way we can ask the community what kind of system we expect to build, and where we want it to go, I will gather all the ideas on this forum and present them laid out, and figure out some kind of feedback system and once its done I will post feedback here on a regular basis as too what people what/need and what THEY can offer the team.
If you think thats a waste of time... ;) Tell me what you want instead, I may not have the ability to write an engine, or to do all things in my own power.
I do know how to stay passionate and encourage others, and to find ways over and around and through obstacles.
I believe the first step to get people to volunteer their time is to know it won't be wasted, To believe it will grow. That the effort will matter even if it fails.
The second step is to honor their efforts so it doesn't fail.
Thats what I believe!
Chad.
#103
The MMOKit is great for people who want to use it, the code is written well and it's been proven with Minions of Mirth to be able to handle the volumes - my really issue is the documentation (it's been a while since I checked so it may have changed but it wasn't great) and my python isn't up to scratch to dig around and alter some of the things I wanted.
So for my part I've decided to focus on a smaller achieveable target by getting python based servers for master, character, patching, etc working and supporting a few hundred players... which will help my knowledge with python and also the pitfalls of supporting a larger volume of people.
11/16/2008 (4:47 am)
Chad - at the time this thread was going on a couple of months ago, I was ready to fully jump onto a project to build a community MMO Kit but with the lack of others volunteering to get involved I've scaled back my intentions to what would be manageable by me.The MMOKit is great for people who want to use it, the code is written well and it's been proven with Minions of Mirth to be able to handle the volumes - my really issue is the documentation (it's been a while since I checked so it may have changed but it wasn't great) and my python isn't up to scratch to dig around and alter some of the things I wanted.
So for my part I've decided to focus on a smaller achieveable target by getting python based servers for master, character, patching, etc working and supporting a few hundred players... which will help my knowledge with python and also the pitfalls of supporting a larger volume of people.
#104
What follows is more rant to get ball rolling, since we know we want a kit and know we can do it, and we can even release it free/sell with GG's blessings and that they will help us if we prove we have a project, lets figure out what our project is, the rest is just details to work out, but we need to know what we are trying to accomplish too.
Or it won't matter if we can accomplish it and who accomplishes it right?
What do I want to see from a Kit?
namely, I had issues even with DTS exporter getting items into a game, some may say "dont be lazy do some work to get your game made" to which I respond, then dont' buy Torque at ALL!!!
Face it Torque is awesome, an MMO Kit to take it one step further, to help backend support, character tracking, inventory etc on a generic but modifiable (at end user) level is what some people want.
its why we have expansion packs and character packs etc, and I would consider dialogue and graphics alot easier than server maintenance/load and inventory systems.
I want to take standard models drop them in a game and then point click some paths, I want to be able to open a GUI and click "Boss encounter" and then click percentanges and say "spawn babies"
I want to point at my star ship and say Pattern Alpha is your defense pattern ,and then draw swirls and loops in my 3d program and import them as a pattern,
But thats the HIGH end ideal of what I would like to see.
At the least I would like to see a dynamically generated world where i can drag and drop my resources, script easy encounters, modify dialogue windows using outside templates that are easy to understand and use.
Thats how lazy I am :)
I want to tell the Kit that I will use 1 of 10 basic inventory systems but have the kit allow me to define a new system and use it too
For instance, I have 10 packs, that have 8 slots, I think thats silly, and plus I have a sci fi game, so I say 1 inventory container for the user, 10 slots, 100 encumberance, and define the slots as percentages, then I draw a graphic and use xml or similar to define that, but I do most of it through a Gui so its easier to make happen.
Boom I went from fantasy to sci fi mostly through a gui and everyone (me at least is happy)
I want to take flying objects and be able to set easier zones and paramaters a sort of visual aid that helps me figure out my areas of effect etc for spells and monsters, and aliens and bombs.
if my game is the Happy picking flower game, I want terrain generation that creates trees and flowers and places them for me, and lets me hand alter their locations
I want my system to give me feedback on players and users, with a GUI to help me control my worlds, reset zones, change things dynamically, create new spells etc.
These are the tools I want/need from a Kit.
Perhaps others just need login/user/password control or help and don't need all the rest of this, thats kinda my rambling point ...........
Are you making just what you want from a Kit or what the COMMUNITY WANTS/NEEDS?.....
What would the community out there who don't even know we are discussing want/need, And yes, what do you want/need?
Games aren't just for the people who play them, they really are also for the people who envision them and bring them to life.
I don't hollar at the person who writes a great novel that he is nothing, someone invented his pen/computer, someone taught him the language, it doesn't MATTER, he had a story, a dream and told it.
The artist was given brushes, but painted.
The Poet knew when to use another word to bring things to life.
The coder knew to use a loop instead of recursion cause it made the program flow.
So, now is the time, not for can we's, will we's should we's, but what will we's.
This is what I want, what "End product" do YOU want to see. And then.
With a smile and Nod from GG, we will do it.
Chad
11/16/2008 (5:18 am)
Understandable, and appreciated Andy, after re-reading most of the former posts and taking out the key points, I could see there are a few different roads we could all take and think we were ending up going the same place, if a bigger project gets under way I hope we can count on you for advice/input and the experiences you gain working on your project, and thanks for the Optimistic approach on all of this!!!What follows is more rant to get ball rolling, since we know we want a kit and know we can do it, and we can even release it free/sell with GG's blessings and that they will help us if we prove we have a project, lets figure out what our project is, the rest is just details to work out, but we need to know what we are trying to accomplish too.
Or it won't matter if we can accomplish it and who accomplishes it right?
What do I want to see from a Kit?
namely, I had issues even with DTS exporter getting items into a game, some may say "dont be lazy do some work to get your game made" to which I respond, then dont' buy Torque at ALL!!!
Face it Torque is awesome, an MMO Kit to take it one step further, to help backend support, character tracking, inventory etc on a generic but modifiable (at end user) level is what some people want.
its why we have expansion packs and character packs etc, and I would consider dialogue and graphics alot easier than server maintenance/load and inventory systems.
I want to take standard models drop them in a game and then point click some paths, I want to be able to open a GUI and click "Boss encounter" and then click percentanges and say "spawn babies"
I want to point at my star ship and say Pattern Alpha is your defense pattern ,and then draw swirls and loops in my 3d program and import them as a pattern,
But thats the HIGH end ideal of what I would like to see.
At the least I would like to see a dynamically generated world where i can drag and drop my resources, script easy encounters, modify dialogue windows using outside templates that are easy to understand and use.
Thats how lazy I am :)
I want to tell the Kit that I will use 1 of 10 basic inventory systems but have the kit allow me to define a new system and use it too
For instance, I have 10 packs, that have 8 slots, I think thats silly, and plus I have a sci fi game, so I say 1 inventory container for the user, 10 slots, 100 encumberance, and define the slots as percentages, then I draw a graphic and use xml or similar to define that, but I do most of it through a Gui so its easier to make happen.
Boom I went from fantasy to sci fi mostly through a gui and everyone (me at least is happy)
I want to take flying objects and be able to set easier zones and paramaters a sort of visual aid that helps me figure out my areas of effect etc for spells and monsters, and aliens and bombs.
if my game is the Happy picking flower game, I want terrain generation that creates trees and flowers and places them for me, and lets me hand alter their locations
I want my system to give me feedback on players and users, with a GUI to help me control my worlds, reset zones, change things dynamically, create new spells etc.
These are the tools I want/need from a Kit.
Perhaps others just need login/user/password control or help and don't need all the rest of this, thats kinda my rambling point ...........
Are you making just what you want from a Kit or what the COMMUNITY WANTS/NEEDS?.....
What would the community out there who don't even know we are discussing want/need, And yes, what do you want/need?
Games aren't just for the people who play them, they really are also for the people who envision them and bring them to life.
I don't hollar at the person who writes a great novel that he is nothing, someone invented his pen/computer, someone taught him the language, it doesn't MATTER, he had a story, a dream and told it.
The artist was given brushes, but painted.
The Poet knew when to use another word to bring things to life.
The coder knew to use a loop instead of recursion cause it made the program flow.
So, now is the time, not for can we's, will we's should we's, but what will we's.
This is what I want, what "End product" do YOU want to see. And then.
With a smile and Nod from GG, we will do it.
Chad
#105
Do you want to train new people, do you want apprentices or do you fear spending more time teaching htem then gaining anything in the way of development
Do you want to provide resources to the end user of the Kit or make them scrounge all their own assets, we may need at least a few assets in order to make the engine no?
Do you want to start fresh or with a previous kit/materials
Do you envision a bunch of back end c++ or installable kit / features that act upon the front end gui of Torque itself, do we wrap torque in our own little MMO Blanket and coddle it, or make people use scripting to act upon the world already in torque etc.
Are you willing to accept a change in the future of the team or will you bail once we hit our first hurdle, can you commit a certain amount of time, or just in it for play, (either way is ok, but its nice to know upfront the level of your commitment)
Do you want to sell this kit or make it open source, a kind of "We rose up and gave GG a resource thats super awesome and now we leave it to future generations to enhance" kinda deal?
What features should the kit have, terrain generation, zones, inventory, etc.
Most of these have already been answered but newcomers may yet want to answer.
Later today I will post a compilation of this entire Thread as to what we got and what we need. It would be useful to hear from those still intersted, and make contacts with others who can help us.
Chad
11/16/2008 (5:45 am)
And as long as I am asking, do you envision an open or closed developement team, does it grow or act open source, or does it lock out new membersDo you want to train new people, do you want apprentices or do you fear spending more time teaching htem then gaining anything in the way of development
Do you want to provide resources to the end user of the Kit or make them scrounge all their own assets, we may need at least a few assets in order to make the engine no?
Do you want to start fresh or with a previous kit/materials
Do you envision a bunch of back end c++ or installable kit / features that act upon the front end gui of Torque itself, do we wrap torque in our own little MMO Blanket and coddle it, or make people use scripting to act upon the world already in torque etc.
Are you willing to accept a change in the future of the team or will you bail once we hit our first hurdle, can you commit a certain amount of time, or just in it for play, (either way is ok, but its nice to know upfront the level of your commitment)
Do you want to sell this kit or make it open source, a kind of "We rose up and gave GG a resource thats super awesome and now we leave it to future generations to enhance" kinda deal?
What features should the kit have, terrain generation, zones, inventory, etc.
Most of these have already been answered but newcomers may yet want to answer.
Later today I will post a compilation of this entire Thread as to what we got and what we need. It would be useful to hear from those still intersted, and make contacts with others who can help us.
Chad
#106
If you have a read through this topic you'll see Flybynight and a few others have chat'd about forming a development team/s. Check Edward's reply (Sep 05, 2008 18:53 GMT) and the next few which covers the idea.
Just a note about the documentation of the MMOWorkShop Kit has been improved a bit, and C++ can be used instead of phyon.
As for self-generating terrain with flowers and tree, and othr things you wish for, there's nothing wrong with that, you just need to write the code for it. Like anything in Torque it can be done if the time is put into it.
My game will cover space travel, large(looking more towards full) size planet maps, melee combat, mental attacks/abilities, vehicle and animal use, high lvl AI, and much more. This is one reason I've been looking at MMOkits for awhile. MMOWorkShop's kit seems to be a very good one, it's been proven to work well, but as I said before with some extra work and enhancement it could work well for my project and anything that comes out of my work could help others in the community develop it even further.
I'll still amazed that you and Andy are thinking of starting from from the drawing board to make a new kit, nothing worng with that, but I would have thought it's be easier to use something freely available to those wanting to use it, and help improve that for everyone, as GG has pushed for it's use over others that were developed at the same time.
Or is it a situation of trying to make a MMOkit for sale, than to help those already working on developing an existing one?
Just my thoughts on the topic. Maybe someone already using MMOWorkShop's kit could add some insight for us all?!
11/16/2008 (10:06 am)
@Chad;If you have a read through this topic you'll see Flybynight and a few others have chat'd about forming a development team/s. Check Edward's reply (Sep 05, 2008 18:53 GMT) and the next few which covers the idea.
Just a note about the documentation of the MMOWorkShop Kit has been improved a bit, and C++ can be used instead of phyon.
As for self-generating terrain with flowers and tree, and othr things you wish for, there's nothing wrong with that, you just need to write the code for it. Like anything in Torque it can be done if the time is put into it.
My game will cover space travel, large(looking more towards full) size planet maps, melee combat, mental attacks/abilities, vehicle and animal use, high lvl AI, and much more. This is one reason I've been looking at MMOkits for awhile. MMOWorkShop's kit seems to be a very good one, it's been proven to work well, but as I said before with some extra work and enhancement it could work well for my project and anything that comes out of my work could help others in the community develop it even further.
I'll still amazed that you and Andy are thinking of starting from from the drawing board to make a new kit, nothing worng with that, but I would have thought it's be easier to use something freely available to those wanting to use it, and help improve that for everyone, as GG has pushed for it's use over others that were developed at the same time.
Or is it a situation of trying to make a MMOkit for sale, than to help those already working on developing an existing one?
Just my thoughts on the topic. Maybe someone already using MMOWorkShop's kit could add some insight for us all?!
#107
I need to make some significant changes for our project and in all honesty I looked at working through the kit to see how I'd change it to work with us and short of reverse engineering a tonne of code I'd be lost at where to start...
We don't need thousands of people online right now so for me I can learn more about the concepts, pitfalls and solutions by starting from scratch... I've hardly ever written any python (the master server resource I released here earlier this year) was the first time I'd ever coded anything in python let alone getting into twisted python so starting simple is by far the best solution for me (i'm a KISS man - Keep It Simple Stupid)
I'm also put off by what others have said regarding web sites being down, the team now controlling things not being involved and no one having much clue which direction and what future it has... comments I've soon all too frequently.
As for selling things - that's not what I'm concerned with right now, I have two goals - learning and finishing our game which are achieved easier by some simple scripted servers of our own.
11/16/2008 (10:56 am)
Pierre - In honesty I'm put off the MMOKit for a number of reasons, by documentation I don't just mean the written form but also that in the code and it's poorly documented unless it's changed there's not much in the way of API information, system configuration (i.e. how servers communication, what does what, how they communicate, API's, etc).... it may be a great kit for some but in all honesty what you have is the Minions of Mirth Game code that has been hacked into a kit - rather than a nicely laid out, modularized and well documented kit to work with.I need to make some significant changes for our project and in all honesty I looked at working through the kit to see how I'd change it to work with us and short of reverse engineering a tonne of code I'd be lost at where to start...
We don't need thousands of people online right now so for me I can learn more about the concepts, pitfalls and solutions by starting from scratch... I've hardly ever written any python (the master server resource I released here earlier this year) was the first time I'd ever coded anything in python let alone getting into twisted python so starting simple is by far the best solution for me (i'm a KISS man - Keep It Simple Stupid)
I'm also put off by what others have said regarding web sites being down, the team now controlling things not being involved and no one having much clue which direction and what future it has... comments I've soon all too frequently.
As for selling things - that's not what I'm concerned with right now, I have two goals - learning and finishing our game which are achieved easier by some simple scripted servers of our own.
#108
I see two major problems with the kit as is:
Lack of I18N. The text strings used in the game are hardcoded into the python files.
The rules processing of the kit is essentially Minions of Mirth. If your aim is to quickly get a server up and can live with the MoM style rules, this is fine. If you want to strongly deviate from the MoM way, then your work is greatly increases because you first have to reverse engineer MoM and rip its rules out before getting down to work. A few months ago, I had posted over there asking if anyone was interested in collaborating on a ruleset independent. There was a general lack of interest. It seems that most current users of the kit are happy to use the MoM ruleset.
I am continuing on my ruleset design language and the processing engine (Angela). I'm shooting for a 0.1 release of Angela in December. My approach to a ruleset agnostic version for the kit would be to rip the MoM rules out of the MMOKit and replace with an Angela platform driver.
11/16/2008 (7:29 pm)
Some of the people here may also be inhabitants of the MMOKit forums, but I do have to point out that the community over there is probably mostly unaware of this conversation. The Kit provides a good basis for a persistent world engine as it already handles most of the server infrastructure. I say "persistent world" as "MMO" tends to bring out the "you can't build WoW on your own" comments.I see two major problems with the kit as is:
Lack of I18N. The text strings used in the game are hardcoded into the python files.
The rules processing of the kit is essentially Minions of Mirth. If your aim is to quickly get a server up and can live with the MoM style rules, this is fine. If you want to strongly deviate from the MoM way, then your work is greatly increases because you first have to reverse engineer MoM and rip its rules out before getting down to work. A few months ago, I had posted over there asking if anyone was interested in collaborating on a ruleset independent. There was a general lack of interest. It seems that most current users of the kit are happy to use the MoM ruleset.
I am continuing on my ruleset design language and the processing engine (Angela). I'm shooting for a 0.1 release of Angela in December. My approach to a ruleset agnostic version for the kit would be to rip the MoM rules out of the MMOKit and replace with an Angela platform driver.
#109
I've read your topic over at MMOWorkshop's forums, it's one thing I hadn't looked at before or really thought about till you post here about it. But it's something I'll looking to farther and see what I can figure-out. If any how I'll use the MMOWorkShop kit for testing and see how things goes from there.
But there are other open-source options out there, but most require alot more work to get up and running. We'll see how things go.
11/16/2008 (8:58 pm)
@David;I've read your topic over at MMOWorkshop's forums, it's one thing I hadn't looked at before or really thought about till you post here about it. But it's something I'll looking to farther and see what I can figure-out. If any how I'll use the MMOWorkShop kit for testing and see how things goes from there.
But there are other open-source options out there, but most require alot more work to get up and running. We'll see how things go.
#110
The reason I want to start fresh on a kit is so that its personal to the community, its fine to take up a former engine and rewrite it if its doable and reasonable, but as a child who always had hand me downs growing up I will say there is a certain pride in something bought or made just for you as well.
However you save a good deal of money and time getting those hand me downs!!! :)
The reason most that I want a new kit though, is to avoid prior pitfalls, and we STILL don't know what the community wants / needs other than as a vague outline, the reason I brought up "flowers and trees" was for the very fact that SURE anyone can code it give the time, but a Kit would alleviate alot of that.
From a Software Engineering stand point (Of which I do not yet have my degree but it is my college major) Reusability, the idea of code once and use often is a key. A previous Kit would be splendid to use if we can re-engineer it, and I will look at that as much as my skills allow me too.
_______________________________________
Note to Engineers, Please for the community consider MMo Workshops Rewritability to create a "Template style Kit" to make more and varied MMO's
_______________________________________
I have actually downloaded a few of the kits out there and dabbled, what I kind of want to see is a KIT that helps make THOSE kits. a behind the scenes meta kit that helps the engineering of the "Groundwork" of those kits and the dreams that will build on those kits.
I know the code and work involved becomes nearly exponentially greater at that point, but if we are to avoid becoming Generic and trite we need to really pool our strengths even if just as a side hobby when not working on our own mmos and really make it work.
In truth I am very glad most of the folks here have private projects, it helps you say "When I made Galatica 9, or Minions of Mirth, or Whatever" I could really have used "this type of thing"
Then the community that works on THIS project can help make sure that "those types of things" become base to the Kit we develop.
I know Torque has ALOT of this already in place, but the documentation of a GOOD solid KIT that takes you from Torque through the Kit, into your Dream, along with Excellent tools in that Kit, are key in my book.
Waiting to hear your feed back, working more on my homework and finals, and still working on a "Poll/voting" setup for a web page to see what people really want/need in a Kit.
Chad.
11/17/2008 (12:10 am)
Pierre, Andy, David thank you for your time and your replies.The reason I want to start fresh on a kit is so that its personal to the community, its fine to take up a former engine and rewrite it if its doable and reasonable, but as a child who always had hand me downs growing up I will say there is a certain pride in something bought or made just for you as well.
However you save a good deal of money and time getting those hand me downs!!! :)
The reason most that I want a new kit though, is to avoid prior pitfalls, and we STILL don't know what the community wants / needs other than as a vague outline, the reason I brought up "flowers and trees" was for the very fact that SURE anyone can code it give the time, but a Kit would alleviate alot of that.
From a Software Engineering stand point (Of which I do not yet have my degree but it is my college major) Reusability, the idea of code once and use often is a key. A previous Kit would be splendid to use if we can re-engineer it, and I will look at that as much as my skills allow me too.
_______________________________________
Note to Engineers, Please for the community consider MMo Workshops Rewritability to create a "Template style Kit" to make more and varied MMO's
_______________________________________
I have actually downloaded a few of the kits out there and dabbled, what I kind of want to see is a KIT that helps make THOSE kits. a behind the scenes meta kit that helps the engineering of the "Groundwork" of those kits and the dreams that will build on those kits.
I know the code and work involved becomes nearly exponentially greater at that point, but if we are to avoid becoming Generic and trite we need to really pool our strengths even if just as a side hobby when not working on our own mmos and really make it work.
In truth I am very glad most of the folks here have private projects, it helps you say "When I made Galatica 9, or Minions of Mirth, or Whatever" I could really have used "this type of thing"
Then the community that works on THIS project can help make sure that "those types of things" become base to the Kit we develop.
I know Torque has ALOT of this already in place, but the documentation of a GOOD solid KIT that takes you from Torque through the Kit, into your Dream, along with Excellent tools in that Kit, are key in my book.
Waiting to hear your feed back, working more on my homework and finals, and still working on a "Poll/voting" setup for a web page to see what people really want/need in a Kit.
Chad.
#111
Key things to think about is whats common with all MMO's out there (no matter wether RPG, RTS, FPS, etc...)
Things like:
Server/s Backbone app's;
Database;
Player Database (includes login information{password/login name/email}, character links)
Character Database (includes player link, stat's, current/last location, owed equipment/items, etc...)
Mission/Quest Database (includes NPC's, quests, equipment, etc...)
Comms;
Chat system
ingame messaging (emails, forum, and/or like EVE internal web browsing)
Login;
Login system (links to player database, and/or game news updates)
Updater system (links with version checker and downloader)
Client app's;
Comm's
Login/updater
These would be the basic key things that would be required. Sure databases would change to fit the game to meet requirements wether RPG (character {WoW/GuildWars/Stargate Online/etc...} or vessel {EVE Online/Navy Field/etc...}), RTS (WW2 online) or FPS (Landmass/Haxley).
But it'd be suggested to have a good plan of attack and work on one part at a time, as you advance, you may find new features in one app maybe required to be added to a already finished one, but thats development for you, you'll always be refining code and finding more efficant means of doing thing.
11/25/2008 (1:55 pm)
@ChadKey things to think about is whats common with all MMO's out there (no matter wether RPG, RTS, FPS, etc...)
Things like:
Server/s Backbone app's;
Database;
Player Database (includes login information{password/login name/email}, character links)
Character Database (includes player link, stat's, current/last location, owed equipment/items, etc...)
Mission/Quest Database (includes NPC's, quests, equipment, etc...)
Comms;
Chat system
ingame messaging (emails, forum, and/or like EVE internal web browsing)
Login;
Login system (links to player database, and/or game news updates)
Updater system (links with version checker and downloader)
Client app's;
Comm's
Login/updater
These would be the basic key things that would be required. Sure databases would change to fit the game to meet requirements wether RPG (character {WoW/GuildWars/Stargate Online/etc...} or vessel {EVE Online/Navy Field/etc...}), RTS (WW2 online) or FPS (Landmass/Haxley).
But it'd be suggested to have a good plan of attack and work on one part at a time, as you advance, you may find new features in one app maybe required to be added to a already finished one, but thats development for you, you'll always be refining code and finding more efficant means of doing thing.
#112
Actually, read Bartle's "Designing Virtual Worlds" and you'll have a much better idea of what people need. I don't mean "what people think they need". People think they need heavy guild support tools, player housing, etc. These are actually just a subset of the issues you need to deal with and solving them out of the box closes the door to dealing with the deeper problems.
The wonderful thing about Bartle's book is that it takes you back to first principles. Before you ask what classes you want to have and what the level cap should be, you should first ask if you want classes, you should ask if you even want to cap avatar progression or even have avatar progression at all.
MoM did not make the jump from MMO to MMO engine so well. This is not to disparage what Josh did. Building an MMO in two man years is an amazing feat. He built a very specific diku style game. The kit is great if you want to build that very specific diku style game. If you wanted to build anything else - say for example you wanted a skill rather than class based, then you have to go in and rip MoM out. It's like renovating a century old home to add an expansion.
This whole thing is near and dear to me. That's why I've been working for a couple of years on a platform independent "design language" for sims (not just MMOs) to help designers go from first principles to a finished world. We're working feverishly to get 0.1 of the interpreter engine released. Perhaps you would be interested in collaborating on a Torque binding?
11/27/2008 (3:51 am)
The things that Pierre mentions are things that ANY PW/MMO/Grapical MUD would need.Quote: The reason most that I want a new kit though, is to avoid prior pitfalls, and we STILL don't know what the community wants / needs other than as a vague outline, the reason I brought up "flowers and trees" was for the very fact that SURE anyone can code it give the time, but a Kit would alleviate alot of that.
Actually, read Bartle's "Designing Virtual Worlds" and you'll have a much better idea of what people need. I don't mean "what people think they need". People think they need heavy guild support tools, player housing, etc. These are actually just a subset of the issues you need to deal with and solving them out of the box closes the door to dealing with the deeper problems.
The wonderful thing about Bartle's book is that it takes you back to first principles. Before you ask what classes you want to have and what the level cap should be, you should first ask if you want classes, you should ask if you even want to cap avatar progression or even have avatar progression at all.
MoM did not make the jump from MMO to MMO engine so well. This is not to disparage what Josh did. Building an MMO in two man years is an amazing feat. He built a very specific diku style game. The kit is great if you want to build that very specific diku style game. If you wanted to build anything else - say for example you wanted a skill rather than class based, then you have to go in and rip MoM out. It's like renovating a century old home to add an expansion.
This whole thing is near and dear to me. That's why I've been working for a couple of years on a platform independent "design language" for sims (not just MMOs) to help designers go from first principles to a finished world. We're working feverishly to get 0.1 of the interpreter engine released. Perhaps you would be interested in collaborating on a Torque binding?
#113
@Chad
Thank you for this Pierrre
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Key things to think about is whats common with all MMO's out there (no matter wether RPG, RTS, FPS, etc...)
Things like:
Server/s Backbone app's;
Database;
Player Database (includes login information{password/login name/email}, character links)
Character Database (includes player link, stat's, current/last location, owed equipment/items, etc...)
Mission/Quest Database (includes NPC's, quests, equipment, etc...)
Comms;
Chat system
ingame messaging (emails, forum, and/or like EVE internal web browsing)
Login;
Login system (links to player database, and/or game news updates)
Updater system (links with version checker and downloader)
Client app's;
Comm's
Login/updater
That will be the basics we need, and to David, thank you for...
--------------------------------------------
Actually, read Bartle's "Designing Virtual Worlds" and you'll have a much better idea of what people need. I don't mean "what people think they need". People think they need heavy guild support tools, player housing, etc. These are actually just a subset of the issues you need to deal with and solving them out of the box closes the door to dealing with the deeper problems.
The wonderful thing about Bartle's book is that it takes you back to first principles. Before you ask what classes you want to have and what the level cap should be, you should first ask if you want classes, you should ask if you even want to cap avatar progression or even have avatar progression at all.
Those are certainly secondary concerns but also tools that I think should be featured second because thats what gets most people up and running after the basics, it is needed for the smaller teams, face it its not likely we will get 300 people working on an MMO starter, but by that same token its hard to get 200 people to make your game as an indie too.
So helping 5-20 people teams make their dreams come alive requires a little extra, I think we have the right basis in this post.
As for me? Finals, and I have been horrible about getting the page up I promised, first an apology, and secondly a reassurance I will still do this.
Chad.
11/27/2008 (11:40 am)
Ok, to everyone out there then :)@Chad
Thank you for this Pierrre
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Key things to think about is whats common with all MMO's out there (no matter wether RPG, RTS, FPS, etc...)
Things like:
Server/s Backbone app's;
Database;
Player Database (includes login information{password/login name/email}, character links)
Character Database (includes player link, stat's, current/last location, owed equipment/items, etc...)
Mission/Quest Database (includes NPC's, quests, equipment, etc...)
Comms;
Chat system
ingame messaging (emails, forum, and/or like EVE internal web browsing)
Login;
Login system (links to player database, and/or game news updates)
Updater system (links with version checker and downloader)
Client app's;
Comm's
Login/updater
That will be the basics we need, and to David, thank you for...
--------------------------------------------
Actually, read Bartle's "Designing Virtual Worlds" and you'll have a much better idea of what people need. I don't mean "what people think they need". People think they need heavy guild support tools, player housing, etc. These are actually just a subset of the issues you need to deal with and solving them out of the box closes the door to dealing with the deeper problems.
The wonderful thing about Bartle's book is that it takes you back to first principles. Before you ask what classes you want to have and what the level cap should be, you should first ask if you want classes, you should ask if you even want to cap avatar progression or even have avatar progression at all.
Those are certainly secondary concerns but also tools that I think should be featured second because thats what gets most people up and running after the basics, it is needed for the smaller teams, face it its not likely we will get 300 people working on an MMO starter, but by that same token its hard to get 200 people to make your game as an indie too.
So helping 5-20 people teams make their dreams come alive requires a little extra, I think we have the right basis in this post.
As for me? Finals, and I have been horrible about getting the page up I promised, first an apology, and secondly a reassurance I will still do this.
Chad.
#114
11/27/2008 (12:03 pm)
Shouldn't you guys be eating turkey right now? Let go of the MMO for one day =) 
#115
Why start with a MUD? Because it implements a ton of game logic you'll need. Being realistic about the situation, it's a good bet that if any MMO is successful from this kit, it will be a small but fun MMO. Odds are nobody is going to create a large and good MMO. Better to have a little quality than a lot of mediocrity as it were.
What that translates into is this: make sure it handles MMO game logic and style first. Worry second about whether it can massively scale.
11/29/2008 (11:47 am)
I'd personally start with an open source MUD and integrate it into a basic multiplayer server as a proof of concept. As long as you choose a MUD base that can handle large numbers of players (500 per server for example?), your main challenge is updating the multiplayer server system to handle such loads.Why start with a MUD? Because it implements a ton of game logic you'll need. Being realistic about the situation, it's a good bet that if any MMO is successful from this kit, it will be a small but fun MMO. Odds are nobody is going to create a large and good MMO. Better to have a little quality than a lot of mediocrity as it were.
What that translates into is this: make sure it handles MMO game logic and style first. Worry second about whether it can massively scale.
#116
I think this is an excellent business model for indies... which gives players a reason to not just download a torrent of your game. I also think a real key is being able to ship multiple games (themes) and support them without it becoming too much of a burden.
11/29/2008 (12:13 pm)
If you scale your game right and actually get it done, you can make a VERY good living selling a game which features polished community tools, single player, and a multiplayer mode that handles 100-300 players logged in simultaneously. I think this is an excellent business model for indies... which gives players a reason to not just download a torrent of your game. I also think a real key is being able to ship multiple games (themes) and support them without it becoming too much of a burden.
#117
11/29/2008 (1:22 pm)
@T Holt - I made my own MUD wBw (way back when). It was a blast! For just one project, I learned a whole lot. Plus it was a 1 man job, which was great.
#118
Michael, a while back I downloaded and installed CoffeeMud. I've been using it to actually design an MMO idea, figuring that if I could make it fun and playable and craft a good setting and feel via text descriptions, it would have a good (gooder?) chance of translating into a good 3D MMO. It lets me craft out key game locations, NPCs, events, player quests and so forth and define them only with a few sentences. Heck I can even demo it to someone using the SSH terminal on my iPhone when on the road! :^)
11/29/2008 (2:18 pm)
Really agree with what you posted Josh. It brings to mind the great Boutique MMOs article from The Escapist some time ago. Also Dan Cook's Lost Garden article on A Game Business Model: Learning from Touring Bands.Michael, a while back I downloaded and installed CoffeeMud. I've been using it to actually design an MMO idea, figuring that if I could make it fun and playable and craft a good setting and feel via text descriptions, it would have a good (gooder?) chance of translating into a good 3D MMO. It lets me craft out key game locations, NPCs, events, player quests and so forth and define them only with a few sentences. Heck I can even demo it to someone using the SSH terminal on my iPhone when on the road! :^)
#119
I got my start by playing Gemstone III and Dragonrealms by Simutronics (developers of Hero Engine). I still have a character on Dragonrealms, which I've played more than any graphical MMO.
That fueled my decision to purchase MUD Game Programming by Rob Penton. My copy is actually on our bookshelf at GG. After reading the book, I took a shot at building my own. Downside? No point continuing development of something no one (not even my friends) will play =/
Still, fun as hell to make.
11/29/2008 (3:00 pm)
@T Holt - "Gooder" or "better", both fine by me =)I got my start by playing Gemstone III and Dragonrealms by Simutronics (developers of Hero Engine). I still have a character on Dragonrealms, which I've played more than any graphical MMO.
That fueled my decision to purchase MUD Game Programming by Rob Penton. My copy is actually on our bookshelf at GG. After reading the book, I took a shot at building my own. Downside? No point continuing development of something no one (not even my friends) will play =/
Still, fun as hell to make.
#120
As David has mentioned a lot of the issues really lie in a lot of MoM code in place and ripping it out to make your own game does take time (rather creating your own or using the kit will save you time in the long run is anyone's guess). As mentioned the strings are hard coded in so there is quite a bit of work to do for any translation or simply changing any strings over to say something else.
A lot of people would really be happy with a stripped down system in which you can start with a foundation and work your way from there, but I honestly don't see that happening unless there is $$$ behind it not to mention the issues with PG and getting something released on the website. It took a lot of time to get the TGEA and TGE 1.5 code released through what hopefully is a proper channel.
11/29/2008 (3:12 pm)
Yeah, I think most of us at the mmoworkshop website are largely unaware of this thread :-).As David has mentioned a lot of the issues really lie in a lot of MoM code in place and ripping it out to make your own game does take time (rather creating your own or using the kit will save you time in the long run is anyone's guess). As mentioned the strings are hard coded in so there is quite a bit of work to do for any translation or simply changing any strings over to say something else.
A lot of people would really be happy with a stripped down system in which you can start with a foundation and work your way from there, but I honestly don't see that happening unless there is $$$ behind it not to mention the issues with PG and getting something released on the website. It took a lot of time to get the TGEA and TGE 1.5 code released through what hopefully is a proper channel.
Torque Owner Pierre (DragoFire) Hay
RedlineIT
Have you looked at the MMOWorkshop kit yet? This is the Prairiegames MMOkit.
The Torque MMO Kit is Open Source under a modified BSD license. Basically, the Torque MMO Kit is free to use for Torque Game Engine/Advance + ArcaneFX owners.
This could save heaps of time, I've been reading through the documentation on the site and forums, and it seem a lot of work has been done already. If we as a community worked on advancing what has been done already then those who want a MMOkit would only have to have liences for TGE and ArcaneFX a total of @ $200 USD ($150 TGE + $49 AFX:CoreTech) or $380 USD for the TGEA Version ($295 TGEA + $ 85 AFX:CoreTech).
Rules of use is basic and most of us know them as standard for most OpenSource projects.
Would it be better to put our time into advancing this kit than trying to start from the beginning again. We know what we want and I personally think it'd be easier to refine/enhance a kit that is known to work than going back to the drawing board to start a new MMOkit. Once exchange rates settle down again this is the way I'm planning to go, as I see this the best option over a completely new kit.
Yes there are things within the mmoworkshop kit I'd personally change to meet my needs, but some changes I see could be a benifit to others in the development community of GG.
The MyDream MMOkit is not option anymore for most of us except those that brought it before it stopped sales of the kit.
Well I hope others think about this and have a good read through mmoworkshop's site and forums, as I'd be interested to hear what others think.