Intrest in a GG sponsored MMOKit.

#21 I strongly disagree edward. An MMOKit -is- needed. There are a good number of people who are quite deeply embedded in very serious MMO projects. Alot of problems with those projects come in the form of usntable code and the fact that because we are all indie, we can lose programmers very quickly and all of the sudden a project is bust..

I think it's clear that the intrest is there to do this just based on the fact that in 6 hours it's become the most popular thread in the forums ;) I am glad Josh has seen this and I know that when GG has had enough time to chew it over and look at the big picture they will give us a bit of feedback one way or the other.

Me? Im putting my money on a brand new section at GG devoted to MMOKits :) woot ;) hehe

@Christian: Sorry if seemed a little overbearing there Chris. I wasn't meaning to belittle your point at all. I just have found that alot of people working with Torque don't realize the true potential of the TNL and the concerns you mentioned about the size of a game world or player base can be overcome as tim posted with his link to Vside. Apologies if I came across as abit of an ass. Wouldnt be the first time Im afraid :/

All the best :)

#22 I think you missed to part of the post where I said that creating rpg kit with addons. For example.

Create a RPG basic kit. sell it for 150 bucks, Incudes AFX and a RPG starter kit. This will solve a large portion of the needs for alot of game items. or have AFX required before and charge 100 bucks for the items in a typical rpg setup.

Create a RPG advanced Kit, Built on the original RPG kit with the MMO package. This would include a more robust server control system. Perhaps a pair of clients and the server model. Since if your running a mmo, you need a dev client tool kit to be able to interact with players in game securely. The programming for a mmokit is progressively more complex then a rpg kit.

and then you have to consider that as a mmo, you have to supply some kind of account server system.

I agree with you that GG needs a MMOkit, but i think that having a 2 pronged attack would be wholy more effective then trying to press only the monster that is a MMOkit. You want a MMOKIT like the pg kit, thats fine. But Im saying we need a lesser cousin of it, for those that dont program in 5 languages. Or to learn the ropes. You should consider that not all indies such as your self want to make a MMO. Lets let the simplier ideas breath a bit. Its a logical progression and doesnt preclude either. Let the folks that want to make a mmo make that choice.

How many folks we see that come on here want to make a mmokit, and we see them fail, its not because they dont have a interesting idea. But its more likely that they have 2 choices, no starter kits and the MoMKit. Does that sound really appealing to you, if your just entering the indie field. Appealing yes. Realistic. No. Most folks dont understand that simply popping out a mmokit isnt going to increase the number of mmos out there.

So MMOkit, yes. RPGKit, yes. There is room in the GG world for more then mmos. Lets makes some games and come out winners.

#23 Isn't that what Realm Wars was all about? A GG group effort at creating a community MMO?

-I3D

#24 I'd be into this, I'd also looking into redonant server setups or vitural server configuration.

Even to the stage of suggesting satelitte server configurations to increase bandwidth proformance.

#25 And this is where we go into what 1000 folks want in a mmo/rpg. We could open 100 threads on the specifics of what we all want/need in a mmo/rpg and then another 100 threads about which language to program it in.

Actually the Realm Wars is not a bad idea. This would be a excellent rpgkit. It needs to be updated, persistance added and thrown together with afx. Just as a starting point. The concepts in Realm wars, make a good general starting point, through in some ai spawners and some save/load persistance. Toss it into a TGEa enviroment. Through some spice to it and shake. There is alot of code flittering around that would make a starterRPG kit by GG.

And yes i know Realms Wars is out there and is a free resource. But dont you think that its about time to do a fresh make over. Kork is starting to look like he needs a face lift. And TGEa has made alot of improvements since what.. 2002?

Then once we have the base kit, GG moves to the much large MMOKit. And lets face it, Any free rpg resources on the forums are more then a few years old, and in need of optimization and compatility with the new code from the last 3-4 years.

We want a MMOkit, but lets be realistic, even if GG started a MMOKIT, it would be released in the next year or 2. Maybe at the end of 2009-early 2010. Lets start small and work up.

#26 Edward if you want an RPG kit I'd respectfully ask that you take that up with GG. This thread was started to express to GG the communtiy intrest in an MMOKit. I appreciate your opinion on RPG starter kits but as you can see from this thread there -is- distinct intrest in a GG MMOKit and there -are- people currently working on MMOs using the Torque engine that could benefit from workign together with the greater torque community on it.

If you want an RPGStarter kit thats fine but I'd ask you to not hijack an attempt at garnering an MMOKit jsut because you would like an RPG kit. I am sure there is a place for both but I see no reason to undermine an MMOKit just because it isnt what you are after.

I'd like to keep this discussion on track at getting a community gauge of intrest in a GG sponsored MMOKit.

Thanks.

#27 Sure, you won, Lets make go for a MMOkit. GG lets get a MMOKIT. Ill add my interest in seeing a MMOKit. and I dont want any RPG elements in it. It better not have persistance, or inventory or ai spawners, or hey wait thats whats in a MMOkit too. Flybyknight. Stop fooling yourself. If they hired josh to make a MMOKIT then we will see it at some point.

I would like a MMOKIT just as much as the next guy, but other then the network and account support for many servers/clients simulationly, there is no difference between the 2. oh you thought when i said rpg kit i meant some fantasy hack and slash game.. jees. You should check out my project then come back to what I originally was doing before the mmokit was shut down. And Im one of the few projects that mustered on, Forced to down grade my own mmo project to a singleplayer rpg due to lack of updates and resources. Yes, Fantasci was originally a MMO. www.fantascihiddenwar.com

Stop thinking that I am always trying to undermine, you. I have had a MMOkit shut down just like you have, specifically by the very same item that you are now fighting GG to replace, irony isnt it. So rather then fight over the exact same thing. Becuase what I want and what you want. Are pretty close. Trust me. Your seeing it from one point of view, Im looking at it from a different perspective. What can I do to help? If we get a lesser Kit, at least we can let the community have something to build a MMO on. You jumping to the end version and not thinking about the milestones. You think GG has a MMOkit sitting ready to go? i doubt it, i could be wrong?

So lets ask the question, GG can we get a MMOKit? is there one in the works? Is the rumors that Josh is working on one true? How would we go about creating maybe a Community MMOKIT. As i said earlier. The Realmwars kit would make a Great... MMOKIT it has art and would could be upgraded with the required network code as well as some of the latest code..like AFX, man this is sure sounding like the rpgkit. Who's with us. Ill throw in some interior work. TGEa perferable.

YES, WE WANT A MMOKIT, there is alot of us that do. How long will it take to make a sellable kit anyway?

#28 Edward I think you are very confused... GG did not hire Josh Ritter to "make an MMOKit".. This thread is not about getting GG to "make us an MMOKit" and despite what you may think I have not had an MMOKit "shutdown"...

This thread is about getting GG to give their blessing to an MMOKit resource here at the GG site. Centralize MMOKit developers so that we can have a safe haven to share source within the license we all own for TGE/TGEA under the watchful eye of GG and know that as long as GG exists we will have access to the source code to make our projects work.

All of the MMOKits that have been attempted outside of GG have ended up failing due to petty squabbling among those who have access to the code and those who do not or simple disintrest by the "leaders" of the projects. All this thread is about is asking GG for a place to safely work together as a community in an environment that we know isnt going to be yanked out from under us.


Please ease up on the drama. You are the one posting about how we dont need an MMOKit we jsut need an RPGkit.. All I did was ask you to please respect the original post of this thread. If you want an RPG kit great. I think thats a hell of an idea. Infact you should definitely do it. How about we all work together on it rather than bickering?

This thread is not asking GG to make us an MMOKIT.. please read. then read it again if you missed the point. All I want to see from GG is a place where we can work together as a community to share code. Centralize resource modifications etc.

An MMOKit is all about the backend. What you as a developer do with your GUIs or modules is meaninless in a kit. What a kit is about is a solid foundation of TGE with appropriate community resources (Things like advanced selection code, object handling and an optimized network layer) all built around an MMOBackend which includes server clustering, database management, player object management and so forth.

GG isnt going to make you or anyone else an MMOKit. If you can't code you shouldnt be attempting an MMO. Thats not being mean thats just reality. What we need as indie developers of the Torque engine is a GG sanctioned place to discuss and implement a solid MMO foundation utilizing the tools afforded us by Torque.

I don't know what has set you off about me or GG but I'd again, respectfully, request that you please use this discussion to try and show GG the intrest in indie MMO development rather than how nothing has been handed to us.

Thanks

#29 I guess I'm really not sure what it is you are asking GG to do.

Normally the first step to starting a project is setting up an SVN repository for it. Is that what you want GG to do? Who should manage access to that repository, GG?

#30 GG makes engines, not kits. There is really no need to set anything up. Just simply do it like the Modernization Kit creators did. Develop something for TGE/TGEA and then post it on the private TGE/TGEA forums. Or submit your code/patches as resources. The C++ Extensions for the MMO Kit are simply just posted on a private TGE forum.

However, I totally see what you are saying though. Maybe they could create a MMO/RPG forum here at GG that only TGE/AFX and/or TGEA/AFX license holders have access to so we can have some sort of a central repository for code and resources that are MMO/RPG related.

I'm already developing a MMORPG with TGE 1.5.2 w/AFX, the Modernization Kit, and the MMO Kit extensions. The closed development over at MMO Workshop is just simply retarded. I'm all for having some open community development centralized here at GG.

#31 Thinking ahead... I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts of how the kit would be documented? and what about content source files being packaged with the kit, if any?

#32 James - That would be a great starting point, I tried creating some interest a year ago here to discuss asking GG for a community SVN server but didn't get much interest.

As for managing access to that as I'd suggested in that thread it would need administering - which could be something that Associates could get involved with or to take a couple of people from the community and make them "admins" for it.

What I see this thread being about is that there are lots of people wanting to create an MMO these days but who don't have the skill/knowledge/time to develop MMO based technology (persistance, patching, inventory, world/zone servers, etc) but given an easy to use and documented MMO kit could make their dream a reality. People are flagging issues with the current Prairie Games MMOkit either in it's performance, ease of use, support or the new owners having the site down for days at a time. Rather than this being a thread for people to moan or ask GG to fix it we're trying to look to alternatives.

The alternative being suggested is that as a community we build our own MMOKit - how that would work, how the team would develop, deliver, etc is too far away to think about right now. I guess the main question being asked is if we can have an open discussion with GG and their blessing/support to get a community project started - it might amount to nothing but if we try then it might just benefit us all.

Is a little off topic James but if you remember the AIseek thread earlier in the month there would be interest in seeing a community AI Kit too if we can get support.

#33 Thank you andy this is what i was trying to say..

"The alternative being suggested is that as a community we build our own MMOKit - how that would work, how the team would develop, deliver, etc is too far away to think about right now. I guess the main question being asked is if we can have an open discussion with GG and their blessing/support to get a community project started - it might amount to nothing but if we try then it might just benefit us all."

I second that.

#34 The blessing of GG is not required for anyone to start a project at any time.

What makes it a community project is just a matter of how easily people are given access to contribute and some license for contributers that gives ownership of contributed code to the whole community.

That said, I'm sure no one would complain if GG added a "community projects" section to the site, perhaps you need 10 people to petition in order to create a new project and then you get a little forum, maybe a .plan/blog for the project, and a free svn repository.

Although noone actually spelled the above out as what they "want" from GG, I will say it's an interesting idea, and would be cool, but really you can start this project right now, without any help from GG at all.

Here's all you have to do:
1. get a place to have discussion
-googlegroup would work just fine.
2. get a repository
-use your own pc, install DynDNS if you don't have a static ip
-or some site Like This, svn servers for $3.95 a month
3. make a license agreement for contributes which gives ownership of all code to the "community"

#35

Quote:The blessing of GG is not required for anyone to start a project at any time.

I was under the impression that any development of "game creation" resources was against the standard Torque EULA. PG, DG, etc have special arrangements/licensing agreements with GG to allow them to develop and distribute their respective kits.

This point has been raised a few times with regard to forking PG's MMOKit. One of the stumbling blocks that a few fork plans have faltered at is the GG permission/license requirement, although others have argued that GG have given permission for development of PG's MMOKit, forked or not. I'm more inclined to think that PG is licensed to develop the MMOKit with Torque, and not that the MMOKit is licensed for anyone to fork and develop with their own MMOKit with Torque, but no-one has ever nailed down the exact situation. PG seem keen to block any forks anyway, hence the concerns and debate about the future of PG's kit and their jiggery-pokery with the license changes, which has ultimately brought us to this discussion.

#36 What's specific for MMO's? A FPS MMO would differ enormously from your typical WoW clone, for instance.

#37 I doubt you will ever see a MMOKit made by GG. It has been asked many times and responed with many times that its not going to happen. Support of such a kit is beyound what GG is capable of providing and the fact that a general MMO Kit would never fit everyones needs (everyones MMO has different needs). This is exactly why the FPS Kit is part of the Torque engine and not sold as a standalone kit as it could have easily been. Its just that different FPS's have different needs for each game and its not easy to create a general base that covers all the basics that a FPS could use.

It is why ultimately the RTS Kit failed and several other kits. As its not as simple to create a basic setup that covers all the general bases.

Anyone can create a general Torque Community project. But it must be closed source (no distribution of the source to non Torque licensed members). There must be checks and bounds in place to make sure outside people do NOT gain access to the source. That has always been the largest hurdles for community projects and why they have not had a huge opening in the community.

#38 Ok I'm going out on a limb here, but thisis the general ideaI think most members would be interested in to be included in MMOkit.

MMOkit;

Chat/trade system(this could be modified by developers into any format they want, eg.. towns/villages in Guildwars, or something else )

Player Database (main requirement, store player details {login, password, characters (stats, skills,etc..), character missions(completed and current), character equipment (ships {EVE, Blacksea}, Weapons {WOW, GuildWars,etc..} or other related things)

Patch system (no need to go farther on this one)

Game Database (for NPC's, missions/quests, money system, rewards, character lvl benchmarks, etc...)

Network configuration (server to client, login server to player database, patch server to client, etc....)

This would be the basic things to have included.

Now I know someones going to come along and flame me for this, but remember as stated above in another post/reply not everyone is a code guru, or the time to do most of the above within a year or even 5 years. The basic idea from what I've read (between the lines) is a mean to cut the development time down.

Now I know we all have different views of how we want our games to be, and we'll have different skill sets. But I personally see that something like a MMOkit could help a lot of us, and if someone wants to make a RPG or a RTS MMO this kit could possibly provide them a good base to start from on the server side of things. Yes we'll have to develop our own game content, and feel of the game we are making. But this could be like any other kit currently available from GG, like the RTS kit.

Well that's my personal thoughts on the subject, now flame away! :/

#39 Thank you Pierre. :) I wish I was able to express my thoughts as well as that. :)

As to the questions above for not doing this as a third party rather than here at the GG site..

Look at all of the attempted kits in progress. Look at all of the potenitally lost development time when a kit closes down or source access is removed.. It's really brutal on people to face these kind of defeats over and over. By having a kit centered around the GG community we know it will always be here as long as GG is around.

Let's face it MMOs are a massive undertaking even for big studios. They arent a "lets set back for a month and design a cool game" In the time it takes to even get the frame work for your MMO working many people come and go and things change. By bringing a kit to the whole GG community and letting the community support it we can hopefully avoid the pitfalls of having it be run on a 3rd party site.

For all of the complaining and so forth about the PG kit it is a very solid and workable foundation. I think the only problem there is the lack of communication or understanding in the community as to how to properly share code changes. PG has made it clear they don't want their kit hosted elsewhere unfortunately so that leaves possibly a fork of the kit here at GG if GG were to give us a place for it.

This isnt about someone going out and getting a domain to do this and setting up SVN. that's been done before over and over and it isn't working. We need a resource centered around GG that peopel can depend on and know it will be around for as long as they need it.

Just a thought.

#40 If it wasn't allowed to make a svn repository containing code from a starter-kit, then how would any games ever get made with it? If you want to start a new mmo project starting with an existing mmo kit as a base, just go do it I say. The only difference between that and starting from scratch is you have to own torque and the kit in question to join the project, rather than just torque.