Could I get GG to clairfy a licensing question? MMOKit related
by Flybynight Studios · in Torque Game Engine · 08/15/2008 (2:50 pm) · 20 replies
I dont know if anyone has been following the trainwreck that is the MMOWorkshop lately but suffice to say things have been a little unsettling over there. In the last few months there have been some significant change in the operations at PrairieGames and although it irks me to talk of ill of anyone, the new owners seem to have simply walked away from it.
Aside from the Minions of Mirth issues which don't concern me personally so I'll stay away from that, the biggest problems I am having are to do with the MMOWorkshop development. When Josh and GG founded the MMOWorkshop, Josh made an incredible contribution to the Torque gaming community. A production proven backend for MMOs, some incredible database backends and a public community for people to colaborate on their work.
In recent months, problems with the MMOWorkshop site (Run by PG) have been getting worse. For the last 4 weeks the workshop site has been down more than it has been up and currently the site is still down on a 4 day and counting spree.
The issue is that a new bundle of the MMOKit was released as of July 22 of 2008. It is a fabulous recource that showcases the contributions of many coders and many resources from right here on the official GG website but packaged and polished and ready to be used. Only a handful of people have access to the source for the newest kit and there are some grave concerns as to how and if they can make it available to MMOkit developers.
I am hoping GG can clarify for folks as to what path, if any, we can take to make the source patches available. PG is no longer giving access to the SVN, infact PG isnt responding to any kind of enquiries about anything.
The MMOKit license bundled with the last release of the kit from July 22, 2008 is as follows:
Aside from the Minions of Mirth issues which don't concern me personally so I'll stay away from that, the biggest problems I am having are to do with the MMOWorkshop development. When Josh and GG founded the MMOWorkshop, Josh made an incredible contribution to the Torque gaming community. A production proven backend for MMOs, some incredible database backends and a public community for people to colaborate on their work.
In recent months, problems with the MMOWorkshop site (Run by PG) have been getting worse. For the last 4 weeks the workshop site has been down more than it has been up and currently the site is still down on a 4 day and counting spree.
The issue is that a new bundle of the MMOKit was released as of July 22 of 2008. It is a fabulous recource that showcases the contributions of many coders and many resources from right here on the official GG website but packaged and polished and ready to be used. Only a handful of people have access to the source for the newest kit and there are some grave concerns as to how and if they can make it available to MMOkit developers.
I am hoping GG can clarify for folks as to what path, if any, we can take to make the source patches available. PG is no longer giving access to the SVN, infact PG isnt responding to any kind of enquiries about anything.
The MMOKit license bundled with the last release of the kit from July 22, 2008 is as follows:
Copyright (c) 2007, Prairie Games, Inc All rights reserved. Redistribution and use in binary form, with or without modification, is permitted provided that the following conditions are met: 1. Any use of the source code or included binaries requires a valid Torque Game Engine and ArcaneFX license from GarageGames, Inc. These licenses are available for purchase at http://www.garagegames.com 2. Redistributions of source code must conform to the provisions set forth in the Torque Game Engine and ArcaneFX EULA provided by GarageGames, Inc. * Redistributions in binary form must conform to the provisions set forth in the Torque Game Engine and ArcaneFX EULA provided by GarageGames, Inc. * Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. * Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. * Neither the name of Prairie Games Inc, GarageGames Inc, Faust Logic, nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission. THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS "AS IS" AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT OWNER OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
#2
I'm not a big fan of +1 posts, but it feels necessary here to let GG know this isn't a lone gripe. As it stands the MMOKit community has been forced to shift discussions to an alternative site and a few months of building unrest and instability from PG is starting to attract the pitchfork wielders... :)
08/15/2008 (3:15 pm)
+1I'm not a big fan of +1 posts, but it feels necessary here to let GG know this isn't a lone gripe. As it stands the MMOKit community has been forced to shift discussions to an alternative site and a few months of building unrest and instability from PG is starting to attract the pitchfork wielders... :)
#3
I second what Ross is saying. We really want to keep this thing going. And unfortunately, Randel doesn't seem to be wanting the same. It's been two days straight that the site hasn't been up. He isn't active in the community at all and he's even forced some of the staff to quit.
This isn't just about him though. It's about the MMOKit community and the fact that if this was to end. Then there would be no place for MMO builders thanks to the discontinuation of the MMO Dream Enhancement Kit. If anything, we really need someone from the GG staff to clear things up.
Thanks a ton in advance,
Mikey
08/15/2008 (3:40 pm)
+1I second what Ross is saying. We really want to keep this thing going. And unfortunately, Randel doesn't seem to be wanting the same. It's been two days straight that the site hasn't been up. He isn't active in the community at all and he's even forced some of the staff to quit.
This isn't just about him though. It's about the MMOKit community and the fact that if this was to end. Then there would be no place for MMO builders thanks to the discontinuation of the MMO Dream Enhancement Kit. If anything, we really need someone from the GG staff to clear things up.
Thanks a ton in advance,
Mikey
#4
The issue at hand here is the use of the kit for anything without the source changes. There are still some broken issues with lighting, TMK that need fixing and no one can do it. Hope we arent seeing all of the hard work that has gone into the Workshop and all of the work being done with the workshop kit fall into waste and obscurity. :/
Thanks for reading.
08/15/2008 (4:13 pm)
As was mentioned elsewhere, what I think the MMOWorkshop folks are asking about are the diff changes, not the source obviously.The issue at hand here is the use of the kit for anything without the source changes. There are still some broken issues with lighting, TMK that need fixing and no one can do it. Hope we arent seeing all of the hard work that has gone into the Workshop and all of the work being done with the workshop kit fall into waste and obscurity. :/
Thanks for reading.
#5
08/15/2008 (4:17 pm)
How about reinstating the Mydreamrpg Kit as it was the only Torque script friendly kit that didnt require one to learn a additional programming language to use. I still dont see why GG removed it in the first place as it couldnt possible have been a threat to PGs python kit? Could it?
#6
The PG kit is production ready. Backend is proven and stable technology. I am not looking to discuss the merits of one kit over the other here, users of the dream kit will obviosuly disagree with me. What I would realyl like in this thread is to get some insight from GG as to what can possibly be done with the MMOWorkshop. Currently it is in a sad and sorry state and it would be a tragedy to see over a year of work get flushed down the tubes due to the sad indifference of someone who obviously has no regard for the time and effort of others.
08/15/2008 (4:25 pm)
Just my opinion Edward but the dreamrpg kit never worked. It was chock full of alot of features but a significant ammount of them did not work properly. Also, that "kit" has never been production tested in even an alpha test. The backend has never had to stand up to hundreds of concurrent players.The PG kit is production ready. Backend is proven and stable technology. I am not looking to discuss the merits of one kit over the other here, users of the dream kit will obviosuly disagree with me. What I would realyl like in this thread is to get some insight from GG as to what can possibly be done with the MMOWorkshop. Currently it is in a sad and sorry state and it would be a tragedy to see over a year of work get flushed down the tubes due to the sad indifference of someone who obviously has no regard for the time and effort of others.
#7
Dont get me wrong, if your a programmer and totally can work the kit, the PG kit has alot of cool features but for a kit that is production ready. Backend is proven and stable technology. Its odd, i see alot of people making screenshots... but i havent seen any games publish anything with it. Have you? I see more people picking it up, then having to abandon it becuase of the complexity of the code in the first place. Its generating clones of itself rather then original mmos.
And if you have any other alternative Kits other then PG or DGI, I would love to hear the suggestions. there was the WoW kit, but its pretty much disappeared.
ps sorry for the hijack.
08/15/2008 (4:40 pm)
Even if the kit has never been tested for mmo's it makes a wonderful rpg starter kit for GG, and a alternative to the One kit to rule them all. That being beside the point. If the PG kit is no longer available one way or the other, is it fair not to explore the alternatives? And forcing a person to use 1 Kit when there are alternatives in the wings but being hushed up by a select number of folks that promote the PG kit.Dont get me wrong, if your a programmer and totally can work the kit, the PG kit has alot of cool features but for a kit that is production ready. Backend is proven and stable technology. Its odd, i see alot of people making screenshots... but i havent seen any games publish anything with it. Have you? I see more people picking it up, then having to abandon it becuase of the complexity of the code in the first place. Its generating clones of itself rather then original mmos.
And if you have any other alternative Kits other then PG or DGI, I would love to hear the suggestions. there was the WoW kit, but its pretty much disappeared.
ps sorry for the hijack.
#8
Thanks
08/15/2008 (5:58 pm)
Trying to keep this thread on topic please :) Looking for clarificaiton on where GG stands with the license on the MMOWorkshop :) Thanks
#9
08/15/2008 (9:01 pm)
Don't know why but I have a feeling that GG doesn't really care either. >_<
#10
Josh Ritter is now an employee of GG. Although it kind of puts him in an awkward position on this amtter perhaps I dont think it's fair to say they dont care. They have to be very careful how they answer this. Infact the safest thing for them to say is "We have no suggestion or control over this" which may be the truth.
I wont fire up the angry mob for a few days and give them some time to digest the situation ;)
08/15/2008 (9:31 pm)
Well I dont know if thats a fair thing to say. The MMOKit was donated to the GG community by Josh Ritter and represented a huge investment on his part in time and effort and skill. GG is in business to help indies make games the MMOKit, or at least the spirit of what it was, definitely helps with that.Josh Ritter is now an employee of GG. Although it kind of puts him in an awkward position on this amtter perhaps I dont think it's fair to say they dont care. They have to be very careful how they answer this. Infact the safest thing for them to say is "We have no suggestion or control over this" which may be the truth.
I wont fire up the angry mob for a few days and give them some time to digest the situation ;)
#11
They cared enough to knock the Dream kit on the head and put all their eggs in PG's basket so you'd imagine they'll care that PG's new management is... mismanaging their eggs. I know, I suck at metaphors...
08/16/2008 (5:40 am)
Eh, give it some time, I'd imagine GG would want to look into the situation and find out what's going on before they commit to any kind of answer.They cared enough to knock the Dream kit on the head and put all their eggs in PG's basket so you'd imagine they'll care that PG's new management is... mismanaging their eggs. I know, I suck at metaphors...
#12
08/16/2008 (11:26 am)
Http://www.mmoworkshop.com/ seems to be dead.
#13
08/16/2008 (11:35 am)
Im sure by now someone from MMOWorkshop has seen this post and GG. Whats the scoop? Anyone heard from someones uncles former roomate about a rumor that their cousin has heard? All things considered, This seems like a serious matter. I for one have bought some of the MMOWorkshop store items. How are these being affected?.
#14
08/16/2008 (1:01 pm)
As I said in the OP Mike it's been up and down for a month and dead for 5 days straight now. The real issue the community is having is regarding how we can release the patch updates for the new kit. Hoping to have GG either lean on PG a bit to clean up their act or shed some light on wether we can release the kit here at GG.
#15
C'mon GG, at least chip in and say something, even if it's just to say you're looking into it or washing your hands of it completely. A few hard working contributors have piled a lot of effort into getting the kit TGEA ready and unless they can release the C++ patch files here the whole thing is sitting in limbo.
08/16/2008 (3:57 pm)
@Edward - I wouldn't count too much on someone official from MMOworkshop having seen this, their main developer for MoM quit last week and the guy who owns PG since Josh left has alienated most of the community with his apparent disinterest and questionable licence changes.C'mon GG, at least chip in and say something, even if it's just to say you're looking into it or washing your hands of it completely. A few hard working contributors have piled a lot of effort into getting the kit TGEA ready and unless they can release the C++ patch files here the whole thing is sitting in limbo.
#16
08/16/2008 (4:49 pm)
The original post in this thread was on Friday at 4:50 pm. Might want to wait at least until the weekend is over before expecting an official answer of any sort. :p
#17
08/16/2008 (5:14 pm)
Heh, yea, fair point... s'only a few hours back I was saying the same thing. Time dilation, temporary insanity, iunno... I'll find something to blame. :) 
#18
This is the first I'm hearing of this kind of concern about MMOWorkshop and the Torque MMO Kit. As you know, the kit was always Prairie Games IP, but with this very liberal license (essentially a BSD), anyone could host the source and branch the code as fit the communities needs or a specific team's project. If there's a lot of interest in GG hosting a project like this, we'd consider it, but again, this is not GarageGames' IP, it's Prairie Games'. I don't know what the status of their operations are, but as you guys probably know, Josh and Lara Engebretson (creators of MoM and the MMO Kit) left Prairie Games and joined GG earlier this year. We'll probably be revisiting our own MMO Kit in the future, or potentially branching from the Prairie Games version.
-Brett
08/18/2008 (2:44 pm)
Hey guys,This is the first I'm hearing of this kind of concern about MMOWorkshop and the Torque MMO Kit. As you know, the kit was always Prairie Games IP, but with this very liberal license (essentially a BSD), anyone could host the source and branch the code as fit the communities needs or a specific team's project. If there's a lot of interest in GG hosting a project like this, we'd consider it, but again, this is not GarageGames' IP, it's Prairie Games'. I don't know what the status of their operations are, but as you guys probably know, Josh and Lara Engebretson (creators of MoM and the MMO Kit) left Prairie Games and joined GG earlier this year. We'll probably be revisiting our own MMO Kit in the future, or potentially branching from the Prairie Games version.
-Brett
#19
I appreciate your time and response. Thanks.
08/18/2008 (3:30 pm)
Really appreciate that Brett. It looks like PG is taking steps on their end as well and do want to continue on with the workshop so hopefully brighter days ahead.I appreciate your time and response. Thanks.
#20
08/22/2008 (8:32 am)
I totally missed this thread until today. Kudos to Brett for picking up the ball!
Torque Owner Flybynight Studios
Could someone from GG weigh in on this in any way? Is there some arrangement that could possibly be made with GG to present the source for DL here on the GG site? I am not sure what is happening at PG but it would truely be a blow to the incredible ammount of work that Josh Ritter and others have sunk into the MMOKit and the generosity they showed by releasing it to us if all of this were to be lost because of the whimsy of an absentee owner at PG.
Could really use some input.
PS: Please let's try and keep this civil folks. It's easy to sit back and point fingers but all Im searching for is resolution. One way or the other.
thank you in advance.