IPhone Licensing Model Discussion
by Brett Seyler · in General Discussion · 08/14/2008 (2:15 pm) · 73 replies
Hey guys,
I thought a long time about doing this, but I've decided that I want some some early feedback from those of you interested in licensing Torque for the iPhone before we set up a licensing model to roll with permanently. Building an effective, fair licensing model is a tricky thing to do. To give you some perspective, the costs for getting TGE and TGB ported are pretty considerable. We're talking about 3 full-time devs for nearly 3 months. If you do the math, it's a significant investment, but one we're proud to have nearly done at this point. We expected interest in the product would be high, but it's outpaced even our most optimistic assumptions. Many of the inquiries have been from you, our core users who take game development seriously, but aren't making millions at it yet. It's always been our mission to enable you to reach the next level, and making games for the iPhone could be a really great chance to do that at a minimal cost. In the past, getting games on a phone required huge hurdles, so "hitting the big time" usually meant making a great PC game and getting picked up to put your game on a console or two. With the iPhone, this could be much easier. There's no dev kit to buy except the iPhone or iPod Touch as a "dev kit" and of course you have to work on a Mac (unless you're really crafty...more on that later) which some people already do. Pretty nice!
So while it's important for us to be able to recoup the investment in porting TGE and TGB and to be able to continue funding improvements to the SDK, it's even more important that we don't close the door on any of you who are serious about making iPhone games with Torque. Originally we had planned to roll out a licensing model very similar to what we have for consoles (Wii and 360), but we're not absolutely glued to that. What I want to do here is open a discussion about what you all would like to see in terms of licensing Torque for iPhone development. I promise I'll take your feedback into account and in the end, we'll try to make the best decision we can for you.
As a frame of reference, here are some possible models we considered:
$15k unlimited titles, no royalty
Pros: Clean, simple, actually much less expensive than our console licensing of Torque
Cons: A bit high for many Indies
$5k / title, no royalty
Pros: Clean, simple, still a fraction of our console pricing
Cons: Still a bit high for Indies
$2-3k / title, 10% royalty
Pros: A bit more affordable for serious developers
Cons: Royalties can be a pain to track and Apple's already taking 30%
$500 / title, 30% royalty
Pros: Definitely affordable for anyone shipping games
Cons: Royalties for the same reasons as above
Obviously the latter choices would allow us to license Torque for the iPhone to more of you, so that's appealing, but we can get creative with this if we want too. Let us know what you think. Nothing's written in stone here. Again, goal #1 is be able to pay for the work and continue to fund improvements to the SDK. Goal #2 is to get this in as many people's hands as possible.
Please share your thoughts in a constructive way. The floor is now open for discussion. Thanks in advance guys.
I thought a long time about doing this, but I've decided that I want some some early feedback from those of you interested in licensing Torque for the iPhone before we set up a licensing model to roll with permanently. Building an effective, fair licensing model is a tricky thing to do. To give you some perspective, the costs for getting TGE and TGB ported are pretty considerable. We're talking about 3 full-time devs for nearly 3 months. If you do the math, it's a significant investment, but one we're proud to have nearly done at this point. We expected interest in the product would be high, but it's outpaced even our most optimistic assumptions. Many of the inquiries have been from you, our core users who take game development seriously, but aren't making millions at it yet. It's always been our mission to enable you to reach the next level, and making games for the iPhone could be a really great chance to do that at a minimal cost. In the past, getting games on a phone required huge hurdles, so "hitting the big time" usually meant making a great PC game and getting picked up to put your game on a console or two. With the iPhone, this could be much easier. There's no dev kit to buy except the iPhone or iPod Touch as a "dev kit" and of course you have to work on a Mac (unless you're really crafty...more on that later) which some people already do. Pretty nice!
So while it's important for us to be able to recoup the investment in porting TGE and TGB and to be able to continue funding improvements to the SDK, it's even more important that we don't close the door on any of you who are serious about making iPhone games with Torque. Originally we had planned to roll out a licensing model very similar to what we have for consoles (Wii and 360), but we're not absolutely glued to that. What I want to do here is open a discussion about what you all would like to see in terms of licensing Torque for iPhone development. I promise I'll take your feedback into account and in the end, we'll try to make the best decision we can for you.
As a frame of reference, here are some possible models we considered:
$15k unlimited titles, no royalty
Pros: Clean, simple, actually much less expensive than our console licensing of Torque
Cons: A bit high for many Indies
$5k / title, no royalty
Pros: Clean, simple, still a fraction of our console pricing
Cons: Still a bit high for Indies
$2-3k / title, 10% royalty
Pros: A bit more affordable for serious developers
Cons: Royalties can be a pain to track and Apple's already taking 30%
$500 / title, 30% royalty
Pros: Definitely affordable for anyone shipping games
Cons: Royalties for the same reasons as above
Obviously the latter choices would allow us to license Torque for the iPhone to more of you, so that's appealing, but we can get creative with this if we want too. Let us know what you think. Nothing's written in stone here. Again, goal #1 is be able to pay for the work and continue to fund improvements to the SDK. Goal #2 is to get this in as many people's hands as possible.
Please share your thoughts in a constructive way. The floor is now open for discussion. Thanks in advance guys.
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#2
The 30% royalty seems steep, but you do need your money I understand. But if a game sells well, it would seem pretty unfair to the development team that didn't get the 2K license.
Maybe just having 2 licenses would be better - the unlimited license, and then the royalty based license with a tiered approach - $500 per title, 30% royalty up to 1000 units, 20% up to 10,000 units, then 10% for each unit after that (I am not an accountant - adjust units/percentages as needed). In general that would seem more fair to the team that comes out with a smash hit. Since the vast majority of projects wouldn't be finished (or if they were, would only move a small number of units), then you're really not out a whole lot. (again, except for the big movers, whom it would seem you want want to keep or attract back)
My 2c.
08/14/2008 (2:53 pm)
Would it be possible to have another tier - one that allows development, but not shipping a game - but could be upgraded to one of the other licensing plans. The 30% royalty seems steep, but you do need your money I understand. But if a game sells well, it would seem pretty unfair to the development team that didn't get the 2K license.
Maybe just having 2 licenses would be better - the unlimited license, and then the royalty based license with a tiered approach - $500 per title, 30% royalty up to 1000 units, 20% up to 10,000 units, then 10% for each unit after that (I am not an accountant - adjust units/percentages as needed). In general that would seem more fair to the team that comes out with a smash hit. Since the vast majority of projects wouldn't be finished (or if they were, would only move a small number of units), then you're really not out a whole lot. (again, except for the big movers, whom it would seem you want want to keep or attract back)
My 2c.
#3
Would it be possible to have all 4 options? That way, the developer could decide based on how much money they have to put into the lisence and how much they believe they will make on selling their game.
08/14/2008 (2:58 pm)
Brett, I won't be making games for any phone or console, but thought I'd chime in on this one.Would it be possible to have all 4 options? That way, the developer could decide based on how much money they have to put into the lisence and how much they believe they will make on selling their game.
#4
Also, don't you guys think the iPhone is significantly less attractive than what you have for the XNA 360 route? I mean, compare:
TorqueX/XNA
Assuming you get the Pro version, it's $250 (including Builder).
Royalties are 30% total by MS (Unless it gets on XBLA, but let's assume not for now).
So you can assume you get 70% of profit here. If you're not altering the engine, you don't have the up front cost, and technically you don't even need to purchase a 360 until you're ready to deploy there (plus you have to pay at least $50 for the Creator's Club thing, but not really until you go to deploy).
Assuming you do purchase one, that's another $300, so $600 total.
Totals: 70% of profits from sales, either $50 up front or $600 up front.
iPhone
Assuming the low price option, it's $500.
Royalties are 30% from GG and 30% from Apple.
So you can assume you get at most 40% of profit here.
You *have* to purchase an iPhone, which is either $1000 with no contract or roughly $2000 with contract, and you have to pay $200 for the SDK under some circumstances.
Totals: 30% of profits from sales, from $1700 to $2700 up front costs.
That, to me, is not a very favorable comparison. If you're selling your game for $10 (which is sorta high for phone games), you're getting *maybe* $3 per sale, which means you need ~567 or ~900 (depending on whether you pay for a contract for your iPhone or not) sales to break even. The 360 route for the same price game (the max you can charge) you get $7 per sale and you'll need either ~8 or ~86 sales to break even.
Near 1000 sales on the iPhone and you barely break even. If you already have a 360 and don't need the source for TorqueX, you can break even in ~8 sales. Wow.
08/14/2008 (3:14 pm)
How are you guys going to handle the fact that Apple's NDA disallows discussing any details of it, or even sharing code? To me this really kills a huge part of what makes Torque great: the community and the resources that people in it provide to others.Also, don't you guys think the iPhone is significantly less attractive than what you have for the XNA 360 route? I mean, compare:
TorqueX/XNA
Assuming you get the Pro version, it's $250 (including Builder).
Royalties are 30% total by MS (Unless it gets on XBLA, but let's assume not for now).
So you can assume you get 70% of profit here. If you're not altering the engine, you don't have the up front cost, and technically you don't even need to purchase a 360 until you're ready to deploy there (plus you have to pay at least $50 for the Creator's Club thing, but not really until you go to deploy).
Assuming you do purchase one, that's another $300, so $600 total.
Totals: 70% of profits from sales, either $50 up front or $600 up front.
iPhone
Assuming the low price option, it's $500.
Royalties are 30% from GG and 30% from Apple.
So you can assume you get at most 40% of profit here.
You *have* to purchase an iPhone, which is either $1000 with no contract or roughly $2000 with contract, and you have to pay $200 for the SDK under some circumstances.
Totals: 30% of profits from sales, from $1700 to $2700 up front costs.
That, to me, is not a very favorable comparison. If you're selling your game for $10 (which is sorta high for phone games), you're getting *maybe* $3 per sale, which means you need ~567 or ~900 (depending on whether you pay for a contract for your iPhone or not) sales to break even. The 360 route for the same price game (the max you can charge) you get $7 per sale and you'll need either ~8 or ~86 sales to break even.
Near 1000 sales on the iPhone and you barely break even. If you already have a 360 and don't need the source for TorqueX, you can break even in ~8 sales. Wow.
#6
@Ross: You make some really good points comparing 360 and iPhone opportunities. The comparison for getting started costs is close, but the opportunity is harder to evaluate. First, 360 is already pretty crowded with good games on XBLA. I'm not sure how easy it will be to stand out on the XNA Community Game channel, but if you can, I think there's good opportunity. The big difference though is if you cool at people who own a 360, they have lots of choices to play good games before they get to the XNA channel. On the iPhone, there's much less competition, so a so-so game (like Super $Money$ Ball) can rock $3M in revenues. It remains to be seen whether any games will be able to repeat that kind of success, but the platform is so new that no one really knows for sure. I can tell you that we're taking a close look not just with Torque but some of our games.
On the NDA thing, I don't even know what to make of it. Like lots of what Apple does, it seems entirely impossible and utterly ridiculous. We'll keep talking with them to find out more, but there's no reason why devs on GG.com can't share non-iPhone specific stuff with each other here. That means probably everything but the graphics layer in inputs, but I don't know, I'm going to try to get around that if we can too. Seems dumb.
08/14/2008 (3:32 pm)
Just to reiterate, we're not bound at all by what I started with in the OP. I'm just trying to get some feedback (better than from Badguy hopefully).@Ross: You make some really good points comparing 360 and iPhone opportunities. The comparison for getting started costs is close, but the opportunity is harder to evaluate. First, 360 is already pretty crowded with good games on XBLA. I'm not sure how easy it will be to stand out on the XNA Community Game channel, but if you can, I think there's good opportunity. The big difference though is if you cool at people who own a 360, they have lots of choices to play good games before they get to the XNA channel. On the iPhone, there's much less competition, so a so-so game (like Super $Money$ Ball) can rock $3M in revenues. It remains to be seen whether any games will be able to repeat that kind of success, but the platform is so new that no one really knows for sure. I can tell you that we're taking a close look not just with Torque but some of our games.
On the NDA thing, I don't even know what to make of it. Like lots of what Apple does, it seems entirely impossible and utterly ridiculous. We'll keep talking with them to find out more, but there's no reason why devs on GG.com can't share non-iPhone specific stuff with each other here. That means probably everything but the graphics layer in inputs, but I don't know, I'm going to try to get around that if we can too. Seems dumb.
#7
That said, there's also the fact that the iPhone user base isn't 100% solely dedicated to games, so that cuts your potential market by a huge amount, whereas those people browsing games on 360 are there to buy games. They aren't there looking for science apps, or date books or $1000 apps that have poorly written English and display an image of a jewel.
Personally I think the cost of entry for just buying the iPhone itself is crazy. I could build a desktop PC for that price. I also don't think $uper Money Ball is really representative, because practically everyone already knows what it is, regardless of whether they like it or not. It has huge name recognition, and the iPhone market is going to be flooded with crappy puzzle games before too long simply because there was that one success story. Since these other games won't have the name recognition, I doubt they'll sell anywhere near as well. Further, because of this, your actually cool non-puzzle-clone game will most likely get lost in the forest of crappy games, since you also will have zero name recognition.
I just think for the level of up front cost involved and the relatively poor returns (~70% vs. possibly ~40%) it's not particularly attractive to indies. This of course, is just my opinion.
Also, this assumes that the licensing scheme in your post is used, which obviously it's just an example used for the purpose of this thread, but my post is just a thought experiment anyway.
Oops: I screwed up my numbers some, I should have said you'd be making ~$4 per sale on iPhone (would make sales to break even given $1700 up front equal 425, and $2700 up front equal 675).
Edit on NDA issue: That's true, I suppose you could just have everyone be extra careful and walk on eggshells, but it will stifle things to some degree, IMO. I agree it's very arbitrary and lame on Apple's part, but hey, they tend to do such things pretty often from what I've seen.
08/14/2008 (3:43 pm)
That's definitely a good point. I did consider it. However, if you've seen the games on the Community thing, most are fairly awful. MS was 100% honest when they said they weren't really having the peer reviewers look at general subjective quality, but simply content (in terms of objectionable content). So I don't think it will be significantly hard to stand out if you have a fun, good looking, polished game. That said, there's also the fact that the iPhone user base isn't 100% solely dedicated to games, so that cuts your potential market by a huge amount, whereas those people browsing games on 360 are there to buy games. They aren't there looking for science apps, or date books or $1000 apps that have poorly written English and display an image of a jewel.
Personally I think the cost of entry for just buying the iPhone itself is crazy. I could build a desktop PC for that price. I also don't think $uper Money Ball is really representative, because practically everyone already knows what it is, regardless of whether they like it or not. It has huge name recognition, and the iPhone market is going to be flooded with crappy puzzle games before too long simply because there was that one success story. Since these other games won't have the name recognition, I doubt they'll sell anywhere near as well. Further, because of this, your actually cool non-puzzle-clone game will most likely get lost in the forest of crappy games, since you also will have zero name recognition.
I just think for the level of up front cost involved and the relatively poor returns (~70% vs. possibly ~40%) it's not particularly attractive to indies. This of course, is just my opinion.
Also, this assumes that the licensing scheme in your post is used, which obviously it's just an example used for the purpose of this thread, but my post is just a thought experiment anyway.
Oops: I screwed up my numbers some, I should have said you'd be making ~$4 per sale on iPhone (would make sales to break even given $1700 up front equal 425, and $2700 up front equal 675).
Edit on NDA issue: That's true, I suppose you could just have everyone be extra careful and walk on eggshells, but it will stifle things to some degree, IMO. I agree it's very arbitrary and lame on Apple's part, but hey, they tend to do such things pretty often from what I've seen.
#8
Also the SDK is free (if you use the iPhone simulator on a Mac) or $100 if you want to deploy/test your app on retail hardware.
This is actually pretty similar to someone who wants to develop games for their retail Xbox ($350 for the system and $100 for Creators Club).
08/14/2008 (3:44 pm)
Don't forget that you can develop pretty much all of the same apps on an iPod Touch ($300) instead of needing to lock yourself into a very expensive contract with AT&T.Also the SDK is free (if you use the iPhone simulator on a Mac) or $100 if you want to deploy/test your app on retail hardware.
This is actually pretty similar to someone who wants to develop games for their retail Xbox ($350 for the system and $100 for Creators Club).
#9
Note, I'm not knocking you guys on this, I think it's awesome, I just find the iPhone rather unattractive as a dev platform due to the the potentially low returns and high cost of entry (not to mention the lack of decent input controls).
That said, I wish I could buy one without the contract and for a reasonable, non-$1000-from-eBay price, because it's probably the only phone I've seen with a decent browser and net integration.
Edit:
Well, I dunno about that Matt, it's $50 for 4 months of creators club, and 360 is now $300 for the low level package. iPhone is definitely not $300, though the iPod Touch is. Not to mention, that it's kind of ridiculous to compare the two pound for pound, given the sheer level of hardware difference between them. $300 for the hardware in a 360 is a steal, while $300 or $1000-2000 for the hardware in an iPod Touch or an iPhone is just highway robbery. Also, if I remember correctly, don't you only need the Creator's Club subscription if you want to actually publish your stuff from XNA, and not merely if you want to test it on the 360?
Edit edit: Also, I don't think the level of developer resources between the two can even be compared. MS provides SO much stuff you could ever want, including forums where MS employees will answer your questions, tutorials, Visual Studio, etc etc. compared to barebones sort of Apple things.
08/14/2008 (3:47 pm)
@Matt, very true, but even so the up front cost is going to be more than for 360 and the returns will be significantly less (dang near 1/2 according to the example license).Note, I'm not knocking you guys on this, I think it's awesome, I just find the iPhone rather unattractive as a dev platform due to the the potentially low returns and high cost of entry (not to mention the lack of decent input controls).
That said, I wish I could buy one without the contract and for a reasonable, non-$1000-from-eBay price, because it's probably the only phone I've seen with a decent browser and net integration.
Edit:
Well, I dunno about that Matt, it's $50 for 4 months of creators club, and 360 is now $300 for the low level package. iPhone is definitely not $300, though the iPod Touch is. Not to mention, that it's kind of ridiculous to compare the two pound for pound, given the sheer level of hardware difference between them. $300 for the hardware in a 360 is a steal, while $300 or $1000-2000 for the hardware in an iPod Touch or an iPhone is just highway robbery. Also, if I remember correctly, don't you only need the Creator's Club subscription if you want to actually publish your stuff from XNA, and not merely if you want to test it on the 360?
Edit edit: Also, I don't think the level of developer resources between the two can even be compared. MS provides SO much stuff you could ever want, including forums where MS employees will answer your questions, tutorials, Visual Studio, etc etc. compared to barebones sort of Apple things.
#10
08/14/2008 (3:54 pm)
One thing that I have noticed with my iTouch is that usually every.....3 or 4 days I'll check out the new "FREE" apps and play them for a mere....5 minutes then delete them, end of Game. I don't spend and will not be spending a whole lot of time playing games on my iTouch, that's what my Sony PSP is for! To buy the games that cost 5-10 bucks just don't really seem appealing for the lack of controls(buttons).......in my opinion as a consumer. Maybe GG should be focusing their SDK for the PSP platform where real game development is applicable for handhelds......just a thought.
#11
Great thread and thanks for the email reply. It is refreshing to see this type of open communication with your community.
My game dev background is in pc modding - specifically in creating the #1 mod for the Call of Duty series - PAM. I am currently working on my first iPhone game and would really prefer to do use a framework to ease development versus building my own. I have been looking at your product as well as a few other alternatives.
If you run the numbers - by the end of next year the iphone market will be 4 times as big as the xbox 360 market as I mentioned in the previous thread which means you stand a better chance of selling more iphone dev licenses than even xbox 360 licenses. 3 Devs for 3 months at the higher end of the average salary ($100,000 /yr) - lets round that up to $75,000 for your total cost of 3 devs for 3 months to develop your iphone product.
At your highest priced level you only need to sell 5 iphone licenses at $15k to break even. In about the first 3 months it was available there were over 250,000 iphone sdk downloads. http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2008/06/09iphone_sdk.html If you were able to capture just 5% of that market that is 12,500 licenses. Using your $5,000 no royalty example that would earn you $62.5 million (12,500 x $5,000) which is 833 times your cost of $75,000.
Everyone needs a profit by 833 times your cost is a little high :) I also agree that many devs may never release a commercial product. Wouldn't it be more fair to offer it either for free or for a small fee say $100. Flash offers their flash media server free for developers for example.
Even at the $5,000 rate you only need to sell 15 licenses to break even. That is only .006% of the 250,000 sdk downloads as of June.
Anyone that is serious about iphone development has to pay apple $100 to enter the dev program so they can sell an app in Apple's app store. Paying another $100 or $150 to me to use your sdk seems more than fair. However, I can see for indie devs if they get an app into the apps store you do something like this:
Assume the game is sold for $5.99 on the Apple store:
GG gets %15 royalties up to $2,500 cap
So for example if your game sells 250 copies:
Total Sales = $1500 (rounded)
Subtract Apples cut (-$450)
Subtract GG cut (-$225)
Dev gets $825
If your game sells 3000 copies:
Total sales = $17,970
Subtract Apples cut(-5391)
Subtract GG cut(-2686.50) cap is $2500 so only subract $2500
Dev gets $10,079
Let's apply this to some real world iphone dev numbers posted today:
http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/08/13/appstore-developer-taptaptap-publishes-sales-figures/
WhereTo TipCalculator
Price $2.99 $0.99
Number Sold 24,094 3,168
Gross Sales $72,041.06 $3,136.32
Applestore cut $21,623 $940.90
GG cut at 15% $2500 $470.45
Dev Income $47,918.06 $1724.97
In the above real world example a 15% cap lets low priced low selling app TipCalculator (3,168 isn't that low actually) make a decent profit. However on the bigger hit "WhereTo" I think the dev could afford to pay GG a full $5k. Perhaps make it 15% with a $2500 cap for net sales below $20,000. For net sales above $20,000 GG gets the paid $5k max.
So adding another $5,99 example:
Price $2.99 $0.99 $5.99
Number Sold 24,094 3,168 3,500
Gross Sales $72,041.06 $3,136.32 $20,965
Applestore cut $21,623 $940.90 $6289.50
GG cut at 15% $2500 $470.45 $5,000
Dev Income $47,918.06 $1724.97 $9,405.50
I don't know how many copies of your other types of sdk's you sell but based on your forum traffic it seems like quite a few. I think it is good to have a system like I proposed that lets the little guy with a low priced, low selling app eek out a profit while at the same time having people that can afford to pay more pay you $5,000 with no royalties.
Even with just a $100 fee if you grabbed 5% of the sdk download market (250,000+) that is 12,500 x $100 which is $1,250,000 or 16.7 times your cost to put out the iphone sdk. A rate of return of 16.7 is still amazing.
Mike
08/14/2008 (4:47 pm)
Brett,Great thread and thanks for the email reply. It is refreshing to see this type of open communication with your community.
My game dev background is in pc modding - specifically in creating the #1 mod for the Call of Duty series - PAM. I am currently working on my first iPhone game and would really prefer to do use a framework to ease development versus building my own. I have been looking at your product as well as a few other alternatives.
If you run the numbers - by the end of next year the iphone market will be 4 times as big as the xbox 360 market as I mentioned in the previous thread which means you stand a better chance of selling more iphone dev licenses than even xbox 360 licenses. 3 Devs for 3 months at the higher end of the average salary ($100,000 /yr) - lets round that up to $75,000 for your total cost of 3 devs for 3 months to develop your iphone product.
At your highest priced level you only need to sell 5 iphone licenses at $15k to break even. In about the first 3 months it was available there were over 250,000 iphone sdk downloads. http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2008/06/09iphone_sdk.html If you were able to capture just 5% of that market that is 12,500 licenses. Using your $5,000 no royalty example that would earn you $62.5 million (12,500 x $5,000) which is 833 times your cost of $75,000.
Everyone needs a profit by 833 times your cost is a little high :) I also agree that many devs may never release a commercial product. Wouldn't it be more fair to offer it either for free or for a small fee say $100. Flash offers their flash media server free for developers for example.
Even at the $5,000 rate you only need to sell 15 licenses to break even. That is only .006% of the 250,000 sdk downloads as of June.
Anyone that is serious about iphone development has to pay apple $100 to enter the dev program so they can sell an app in Apple's app store. Paying another $100 or $150 to me to use your sdk seems more than fair. However, I can see for indie devs if they get an app into the apps store you do something like this:
Assume the game is sold for $5.99 on the Apple store:
GG gets %15 royalties up to $2,500 cap
So for example if your game sells 250 copies:
Total Sales = $1500 (rounded)
Subtract Apples cut (-$450)
Subtract GG cut (-$225)
Dev gets $825
If your game sells 3000 copies:
Total sales = $17,970
Subtract Apples cut(-5391)
Subtract GG cut(-2686.50) cap is $2500 so only subract $2500
Dev gets $10,079
Let's apply this to some real world iphone dev numbers posted today:
http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/08/13/appstore-developer-taptaptap-publishes-sales-figures/
WhereTo TipCalculator
Price $2.99 $0.99
Number Sold 24,094 3,168
Gross Sales $72,041.06 $3,136.32
Applestore cut $21,623 $940.90
GG cut at 15% $2500 $470.45
Dev Income $47,918.06 $1724.97
In the above real world example a 15% cap lets low priced low selling app TipCalculator (3,168 isn't that low actually) make a decent profit. However on the bigger hit "WhereTo" I think the dev could afford to pay GG a full $5k. Perhaps make it 15% with a $2500 cap for net sales below $20,000. For net sales above $20,000 GG gets the paid $5k max.
So adding another $5,99 example:
Price $2.99 $0.99 $5.99
Number Sold 24,094 3,168 3,500
Gross Sales $72,041.06 $3,136.32 $20,965
Applestore cut $21,623 $940.90 $6289.50
GG cut at 15% $2500 $470.45 $5,000
Dev Income $47,918.06 $1724.97 $9,405.50
I don't know how many copies of your other types of sdk's you sell but based on your forum traffic it seems like quite a few. I think it is good to have a system like I proposed that lets the little guy with a low priced, low selling app eek out a profit while at the same time having people that can afford to pay more pay you $5,000 with no royalties.
Even with just a $100 fee if you grabbed 5% of the sdk download market (250,000+) that is 12,500 x $100 which is $1,250,000 or 16.7 times your cost to put out the iphone sdk. A rate of return of 16.7 is still amazing.
Mike
#12
I think all of the price choices are pretty steep compared to normal Torque stuff. Though I do understand you guys need money just as much as I can't spend much of it, so I doubt I'll be getting this license soon. I have no problem with royalties (as long as they stay below 100% :P ) it's just the price of the SDK, plus another $300 for an iPod Touch, and then a mac to do the work on (though you can find a way around the mac issue, I don't know any way around the iPhone issue) I just with at least one of the two was affordable to me, heh. I guess I'm not really of much help to this discussion :p
The good thing about the iPhone for indies is that the amount of work an indie can put into a game can make a great game for this platform, and I doubt we'll ever see huge companies making million dollar budget games for a phone, so indies can be right up there in quality. But the price is pretty high for me, and not everyone who owns an iPhone will buy an app. In fact, I don't know a single person with an iPhone who has bought an app.
08/14/2008 (4:48 pm)
DALO, I wouldn't say the controls are bad for the iPhone. Sure it doesn't have buttons and analog sticks on the side, but maybe you could write your own GUI style buttons/analog stick, that would be pretty cool. And alot of games can be made with just a touch interface. Think of a Diablo style game, that would go pretty well.I think all of the price choices are pretty steep compared to normal Torque stuff. Though I do understand you guys need money just as much as I can't spend much of it, so I doubt I'll be getting this license soon. I have no problem with royalties (as long as they stay below 100% :P ) it's just the price of the SDK, plus another $300 for an iPod Touch, and then a mac to do the work on (though you can find a way around the mac issue, I don't know any way around the iPhone issue) I just with at least one of the two was affordable to me, heh. I guess I'm not really of much help to this discussion :p
The good thing about the iPhone for indies is that the amount of work an indie can put into a game can make a great game for this platform, and I doubt we'll ever see huge companies making million dollar budget games for a phone, so indies can be right up there in quality. But the price is pretty high for me, and not everyone who owns an iPhone will buy an app. In fact, I don't know a single person with an iPhone who has bought an app.
#13
That was my target - come out with a bunch of nice, little games for $0.99 to $2.99 each, but if I have to pony up $500 per Torqued-title before the first person even hits the "Buy App" button, I may have to invest in Objective-C courses and books instead. I had a pipe dream that I'd make a little supplemental income by creating fun, mindless games and applications on the iPhone.
On top of all that, I have yet to see how well the performance of the Torque engine is on the iPhone - will we get smooth 30 fps on games with music, sound, particle effects and multiple sprite transformations? Don't forget the many developers who put out their games for free. They still had to pay the $99 or $299 fee for the developer's license (which, by the way, is an annual fee to Apple, for those who didn't know).
I was hoping for a similar setup to Apple - $100 annually to license the Torque SDK, then a tiered percentage (20 down to 10%) from any net sales I derive from each game I create (or application - it could happen!). Assuming the engine is as powerful and useful on the iPhone, I can understand it would be a powerful subset or add-on to Apple's iPhone SDK, so $100-150 for the tools is fair, and the yearly renewal would be acceptable IMO, provided you release periodic updates with new features and code tweaks throughout each year. I wouldn't even mind if I was imposed with a "Made with Torque" or GG logo in the corner of my title screen, or in the credits of my game. That would, of course, fuel further licensing for you guys. Just please don't require us to use a startup splash screen (I can't stand that on games - it takes too long just to get to play when they do that).
As you pointed out, it may be difficult to gauge how many sales each title would make. In iTunes Connect, a developer can add a user to give Financial access, but even with the limited access that the main developer ID sets up for that added user, that user can seem to view and edit the Paid Contracts with Apple, add users, view the developer's bank account information, and tax information, all of which is way too much for a limited user to have access to - I know, I just tested it out. Also, the Financial Reports that are generated are for everything the developer put out, not just a single product.
I've emailed Apple to see what further limitations can be imposed, but getting an answer back from them can be as effective as asking God for tonight's winning lottery numbers. Of course, we could simply email out our numbers monthly, and though I am honest not to "cook the books," I'm sure you'd want to know for certain the numbers are as real as they appear to you.
Then I thought of a "call home" idea from a compiled game with the SDK, but with the latest disturbing news of the broken FairPlay DRM and cracked games out there on the torrents, we could be screwed over by inflated numbers from jailbroken devices with pirated versions of our work. And, what if the iPod touch never gets an internet connection? They'll never be counted.
I do hope you guys at GG will come up with something meaningful for the indies such as myself, and soon. I'm just itching to create some fun stuff, and really grasping Objective-C to do what you want with it is a daunting task, IMO. In the meantime, would you mind getting me into the beta? ;) I really want to see what I can accomplish in the meantime, and that could help sharpen my perspective on things. Thanks!
08/14/2008 (6:59 pm)
I would like to interject as well on this issue, since I was initially excited for the Torque SDK for the iPhone. If you take a good look at the selection of games on the App Store, you can see that the less expensive games (i.e. $4.99 and under) are what people want to pay. Most of the reviews of games to download severely trash and chastise the developer, saying that they're too expensive. $0.99-$2.99 sellers are doing a much better job, and will probably make up for sales in volume.That was my target - come out with a bunch of nice, little games for $0.99 to $2.99 each, but if I have to pony up $500 per Torqued-title before the first person even hits the "Buy App" button, I may have to invest in Objective-C courses and books instead. I had a pipe dream that I'd make a little supplemental income by creating fun, mindless games and applications on the iPhone.
On top of all that, I have yet to see how well the performance of the Torque engine is on the iPhone - will we get smooth 30 fps on games with music, sound, particle effects and multiple sprite transformations? Don't forget the many developers who put out their games for free. They still had to pay the $99 or $299 fee for the developer's license (which, by the way, is an annual fee to Apple, for those who didn't know).
I was hoping for a similar setup to Apple - $100 annually to license the Torque SDK, then a tiered percentage (20 down to 10%) from any net sales I derive from each game I create (or application - it could happen!). Assuming the engine is as powerful and useful on the iPhone, I can understand it would be a powerful subset or add-on to Apple's iPhone SDK, so $100-150 for the tools is fair, and the yearly renewal would be acceptable IMO, provided you release periodic updates with new features and code tweaks throughout each year. I wouldn't even mind if I was imposed with a "Made with Torque" or GG logo in the corner of my title screen, or in the credits of my game. That would, of course, fuel further licensing for you guys. Just please don't require us to use a startup splash screen (I can't stand that on games - it takes too long just to get to play when they do that).
As you pointed out, it may be difficult to gauge how many sales each title would make. In iTunes Connect, a developer can add a user to give Financial access, but even with the limited access that the main developer ID sets up for that added user, that user can seem to view and edit the Paid Contracts with Apple, add users, view the developer's bank account information, and tax information, all of which is way too much for a limited user to have access to - I know, I just tested it out. Also, the Financial Reports that are generated are for everything the developer put out, not just a single product.
I've emailed Apple to see what further limitations can be imposed, but getting an answer back from them can be as effective as asking God for tonight's winning lottery numbers. Of course, we could simply email out our numbers monthly, and though I am honest not to "cook the books," I'm sure you'd want to know for certain the numbers are as real as they appear to you.
Then I thought of a "call home" idea from a compiled game with the SDK, but with the latest disturbing news of the broken FairPlay DRM and cracked games out there on the torrents, we could be screwed over by inflated numbers from jailbroken devices with pirated versions of our work. And, what if the iPod touch never gets an internet connection? They'll never be counted.
I do hope you guys at GG will come up with something meaningful for the indies such as myself, and soon. I'm just itching to create some fun stuff, and really grasping Objective-C to do what you want with it is a daunting task, IMO. In the meantime, would you mind getting me into the beta? ;) I really want to see what I can accomplish in the meantime, and that could help sharpen my perspective on things. Thanks!
#14
Well, I would say "uh?"... :-)
For a short moment (a few months), Unity iPhone and Torque iPhone will be the sole competitors on the market, but then, due to the enormous popularity, we will see more engines available on the market. Some good, some bad, but at least way more than 2 engines. The iPhone is not like the Wii where you need to pay a lot upfront to get into development first.
Regarding royalties: How on earth do you want to track that? Sure, contracts and stuff. But that would require an enourmous amount of work on GG side to keep track of all the licenses sold and make sure the royalties are correct, charge the right amount and stuff. Phew, _lots_ of work on your end on this I suppose.
If I look at the roots of GG I would expect something _groundbreaking_ again. Like a 200 US$ additional fee to TGE owners. That would rock, make you unique, sell lots of licenses and bind customers to GG. Like years before when GG came up with V12/Torque for 100 US$.
Just my thoughts. :-)
Martin
08/14/2008 (10:13 pm)
Hmm, honestly I think these numbers are way off what you can charge for such a license. If you take a look at the sales that current titles did you will notice that there are a few prominent titles that make a bunch of $$, but the average makes just a few hundred bucks (if ever) each month. At least that is my experience from what I sell in the app store and what I heard from other developers. I mean the iPhone version is not a new engine, it is a port of an existing engine. For me it would be the same as if you would say: "For the Mac version of TGEA we charge 15k$ with no royalities because it took 3 programmers of us 3 month to get it done."Well, I would say "uh?"... :-)
For a short moment (a few months), Unity iPhone and Torque iPhone will be the sole competitors on the market, but then, due to the enormous popularity, we will see more engines available on the market. Some good, some bad, but at least way more than 2 engines. The iPhone is not like the Wii where you need to pay a lot upfront to get into development first.
Regarding royalties: How on earth do you want to track that? Sure, contracts and stuff. But that would require an enourmous amount of work on GG side to keep track of all the licenses sold and make sure the royalties are correct, charge the right amount and stuff. Phew, _lots_ of work on your end on this I suppose.
If I look at the roots of GG I would expect something _groundbreaking_ again. Like a 200 US$ additional fee to TGE owners. That would rock, make you unique, sell lots of licenses and bind customers to GG. Like years before when GG came up with V12/Torque for 100 US$.
Just my thoughts. :-)
Martin
#15
I was expecting to pay $100/$150 for TGB/TGE respectively, then an additional $100 for a per-title "iPhone license" that would cover whatever extra magic you put in for iPhone support. Higher than that, and I get apprehensive about whether or not the app I release even turns a profit. As a poor college student, if I had to pick, I'd want a cheap license and high royalties, so I could at least get to work as soon as possible.
I also do realize the iPhone market is larger and "sweeter" than it is for PC...you wouldn't pay to play Solitaire on your PC, but you would on your phone (I did :D)
08/15/2008 (12:11 am)
Raphael nailed my initial excitement exactly...Quote:That was my target - come out with a bunch of nice, little games for $0.99 to $2.99 each, but if I have to pony up $500 per Torqued-title before the first person even hits the "Buy App" button, I may have to invest in Objective-C courses and books instead. I had a pipe dream that I'd make a little supplemental income by creating fun, mindless games and applications on the iPhone.
I was expecting to pay $100/$150 for TGB/TGE respectively, then an additional $100 for a per-title "iPhone license" that would cover whatever extra magic you put in for iPhone support. Higher than that, and I get apprehensive about whether or not the app I release even turns a profit. As a poor college student, if I had to pick, I'd want a cheap license and high royalties, so I could at least get to work as soon as possible.
I also do realize the iPhone market is larger and "sweeter" than it is for PC...you wouldn't pay to play Solitaire on your PC, but you would on your phone (I did :D)
#16
Thanks GG for that, but it seems that the Torque for iPhone Licensing first thoughts is far from that.
And 3 months for 3 dev to port the engine on iPhone doesn't seems like a 'significant investment'. I don't judge the quality of the work so, and I'm quite sure it's good work !
So, I would say to come back to your roots and add a licensing scheme that is more in line with TGE licensing (around 150$ for splash screen version, a bit more for the no-logo version), and that will be fine.
Hope to buy an iPhone TGE SDK soon.
Nicolas Buquet
www.buquet-net.com/cv/
08/15/2008 (3:35 am)
I came to the TGE community because of its affordable price, the no royalty scheme and the full access to source.Thanks GG for that, but it seems that the Torque for iPhone Licensing first thoughts is far from that.
And 3 months for 3 dev to port the engine on iPhone doesn't seems like a 'significant investment'. I don't judge the quality of the work so, and I'm quite sure it's good work !
So, I would say to come back to your roots and add a licensing scheme that is more in line with TGE licensing (around 150$ for splash screen version, a bit more for the no-logo version), and that will be fine.
Hope to buy an iPhone TGE SDK soon.
Nicolas Buquet
www.buquet-net.com/cv/
#17
Seriously? Really? Wow. The opportunity cost from taking those developers away from TGEA or (potentially) Torque 2 is pretty bloody big.
08/15/2008 (7:14 am)
Quote:3 months for 3 dev to port the engine on iPhone doesn't seems like a 'significant investment'
Seriously? Really? Wow. The opportunity cost from taking those developers away from TGEA or (potentially) Torque 2 is pretty bloody big.
#18
Sure, we all have big dreams and hope our game sells a million copies, but just remember that even though the App Store opened up just 35 days ago and Apple reported some impressive numbers, keep in mind that you had a platform that was closed for over an entire year. With people literally begging for additional productivity other than "web applications" launched through Mobile Safari, the iPhone platform created a vacuum which caused the initial surge of sales. Even the crappiest tip calculators and garbage games released are getting volume because of that.
I just hope GG didn't buy into all the hype either. They very well may have seen the numbers, too, and could have said, "let's capitalize on this a little bit more." But, I feel the swelling will die down, and we may be inundated with more of the junk we're starting to see now, or face stiff competition from the bigger companies that could push the indies out of the water altogether.
One thing to note about Unity that someone mentioned: while it'll be the second game engine to release for the iPhone, it's primary focus is 3D game development. I personally don't have any 3D experience, which is one of the reasons why Torque would be appealing to me. My games for the time-being will be 2D and psuedo-3D until I truly understand and grasp a 3D game platform for development.
I just want to make games. I just want to play games. If I can make some chump change on the side, that's great. I'm know I may never be able to leave my full-time job to do it, though it would be nice. Please make Torque affordable to give me that chance, and if it does ever come to that point where an indie becomes a full-time game developing house, GG should have the right to step in and pen up some contracts so that they can be handsomely compensated as well.
08/15/2008 (8:07 am)
I don't want this to get off topic here, and I think the argument of whether or not 3 months for 3 developers dedicated to building the Torque SDK for the iPhone (there's gotta be a shorter phrase for it... iTorque?) was a significant investment or not can only be truly determined by GG themselves. What I do know is that whatever investment they made, time and money-wise, I personally feel that they will be able to get back that investment if they make the licensing model more affordable for independent developers like us. The volume alone, even before any possible tiered percentage, would make up for their hard work.Sure, we all have big dreams and hope our game sells a million copies, but just remember that even though the App Store opened up just 35 days ago and Apple reported some impressive numbers, keep in mind that you had a platform that was closed for over an entire year. With people literally begging for additional productivity other than "web applications" launched through Mobile Safari, the iPhone platform created a vacuum which caused the initial surge of sales. Even the crappiest tip calculators and garbage games released are getting volume because of that.
I just hope GG didn't buy into all the hype either. They very well may have seen the numbers, too, and could have said, "let's capitalize on this a little bit more." But, I feel the swelling will die down, and we may be inundated with more of the junk we're starting to see now, or face stiff competition from the bigger companies that could push the indies out of the water altogether.
One thing to note about Unity that someone mentioned: while it'll be the second game engine to release for the iPhone, it's primary focus is 3D game development. I personally don't have any 3D experience, which is one of the reasons why Torque would be appealing to me. My games for the time-being will be 2D and psuedo-3D until I truly understand and grasp a 3D game platform for development.
I just want to make games. I just want to play games. If I can make some chump change on the side, that's great. I'm know I may never be able to leave my full-time job to do it, though it would be nice. Please make Torque affordable to give me that chance, and if it does ever come to that point where an indie becomes a full-time game developing house, GG should have the right to step in and pen up some contracts so that they can be handsomely compensated as well.
#19
I guess I'm in the process of comparing Unity and Torque to find the best solution for iPhone game development.
TGB has an advantage because A) Torque appears to be much closer to an actual iPhone export option than Unity and B) it's tricky to build any kind of 2D games with Unity's 3D engine.
Like everyone else here, I just want to get my game ideas onto the App Store as soon as possible. It really is a race to the App Store. Competition will only get worse, and recent successes (like Super Monkey Ball) are most likely flukes due to built up demand for games - though I hope that isn't the case.
I've spent about 3 hours with the TGB demo so far, and after seeing these numbers ($5,000 per title, really?) I'm having a really hard time deciding if it's even worth it for me to bother learning Torque at all. Unity hasn't released license costs yet either, though it's been hinted that it will be included in Unity Pro for $1500 with zero license fees. Or possibly as a $500 add-on. Yes, these numbers are my own speculation, based on reading the forums and recent email communications with Unity. But whatever amount it is, it won't come close to 5 grand per game!
Like others have already mentioned, the sweet spot for indie iPhone games is $.99 to $2.99. NO ONE is going to do well selling $10 games without licensing a pre-established brand (like Crash Bandicoot) - and good luck selling anything over $3. There's too much crap to wade through and the competition is already too great.
Not every game idea is gold, and often the only way to find out is to put it out there and see what happens. I have no problem spending money to develop for this platform. I already own a Mac, an iPhone and have paid the $99 to be an iPhone developer. So the last cost for me is Unity or Torque. I'm going to buy one of them. And these license fees have me trying hard to find a reason to spend any more time with the TGB demo.
I mention the $5,000 option because that is the only one that makes sense to me. Paying any kind of royalty fee on a 99 cent game leaves almost nothing left over. And even though I don't think there should be a per game fee, if that's how you want to operate I don't guess we have a choice. (The $15,000 unlimited fee is too high to even pretend to consider).
Make it $100 per title with no royalties and Torque will own iPhone gaming. The amounts you've proposed will send iPhone devs running to Unity en masse.
Faking 2D in Unity is tough, but it's not so tough that it's worth paying $5,000 per game. On a 99 cent game, that's 7,215 sales JUST TO BREAK EVEN!! Hmm... As an indie developer I can afford to lose time, but if using your software means losing money, I'm tempted to look at other options.
08/15/2008 (10:16 pm)
As someone who is looking to move from Unity to Torque for iPhone development, these numbers are extremely discouraging. [I should mention that I have not purchased Unity yet, but I have built several prototypes using the demo - I know it and am comfortable with it.]I guess I'm in the process of comparing Unity and Torque to find the best solution for iPhone game development.
TGB has an advantage because A) Torque appears to be much closer to an actual iPhone export option than Unity and B) it's tricky to build any kind of 2D games with Unity's 3D engine.
Like everyone else here, I just want to get my game ideas onto the App Store as soon as possible. It really is a race to the App Store. Competition will only get worse, and recent successes (like Super Monkey Ball) are most likely flukes due to built up demand for games - though I hope that isn't the case.
I've spent about 3 hours with the TGB demo so far, and after seeing these numbers ($5,000 per title, really?) I'm having a really hard time deciding if it's even worth it for me to bother learning Torque at all. Unity hasn't released license costs yet either, though it's been hinted that it will be included in Unity Pro for $1500 with zero license fees. Or possibly as a $500 add-on. Yes, these numbers are my own speculation, based on reading the forums and recent email communications with Unity. But whatever amount it is, it won't come close to 5 grand per game!
Like others have already mentioned, the sweet spot for indie iPhone games is $.99 to $2.99. NO ONE is going to do well selling $10 games without licensing a pre-established brand (like Crash Bandicoot) - and good luck selling anything over $3. There's too much crap to wade through and the competition is already too great.
Not every game idea is gold, and often the only way to find out is to put it out there and see what happens. I have no problem spending money to develop for this platform. I already own a Mac, an iPhone and have paid the $99 to be an iPhone developer. So the last cost for me is Unity or Torque. I'm going to buy one of them. And these license fees have me trying hard to find a reason to spend any more time with the TGB demo.
I mention the $5,000 option because that is the only one that makes sense to me. Paying any kind of royalty fee on a 99 cent game leaves almost nothing left over. And even though I don't think there should be a per game fee, if that's how you want to operate I don't guess we have a choice. (The $15,000 unlimited fee is too high to even pretend to consider).
Make it $100 per title with no royalties and Torque will own iPhone gaming. The amounts you've proposed will send iPhone devs running to Unity en masse.
Faking 2D in Unity is tough, but it's not so tough that it's worth paying $5,000 per game. On a 99 cent game, that's 7,215 sales JUST TO BREAK EVEN!! Hmm... As an indie developer I can afford to lose time, but if using your software means losing money, I'm tempted to look at other options.
#20
I will drop $100 in a heartbeat for Torque. However, to drop another $2500, or $5000 and give royalties is really only is only going to work for people that have a top 100 game. In the real world example I gave "WhereTo" was #69 in Apps store at that time.
http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/08/13/appstore-developer-taptaptap-publishes-sales-figures/
WhereTo
Price $2.99
Number Sold 24,094
Gross Sales $72,041.06
Applestore cut $21,623
GG cut at 15% $2500
Dev Income $47,918.06
If you are that successful then paying gg $2500 or $5000 seems right to do. However the vast majority of people may never reach the point of getting an app into the app store, let alone having one be top 100.
One must also remember that people have been waiting over a year for apps so this was the opening rush so they may be spending crazy - seeing how sales are over the next few months should give a better idea of how a decent low priced app will sell.
I think the best thing for GG right now would be to own the market by putting the iphone version of torque out there for $100 with no royalites for the next 3 months. Early adopters get reward with lower entry fees and GG gets rewarded by getting a lot of torque based games out there fast as well as a large pool of devs helping them to refine their product.
After those 3 months GG can look at the apps stats for games and see how much money a top 100 game makes, how much money a game at #250, at #500 etc makes and then come up with a licensing fee.
Either that or just do what I suggested before and come up with a system of a small charge for everyone and then a larger fee if they actually make it to the app store and if they actually have a decent sales / income.
Mike
08/16/2008 (7:45 am)
Patrick has said exactly what I am sure many potential devs are thinking.I will drop $100 in a heartbeat for Torque. However, to drop another $2500, or $5000 and give royalties is really only is only going to work for people that have a top 100 game. In the real world example I gave "WhereTo" was #69 in Apps store at that time.
http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/08/13/appstore-developer-taptaptap-publishes-sales-figures/
WhereTo
Price $2.99
Number Sold 24,094
Gross Sales $72,041.06
Applestore cut $21,623
GG cut at 15% $2500
Dev Income $47,918.06
If you are that successful then paying gg $2500 or $5000 seems right to do. However the vast majority of people may never reach the point of getting an app into the app store, let alone having one be top 100.
One must also remember that people have been waiting over a year for apps so this was the opening rush so they may be spending crazy - seeing how sales are over the next few months should give a better idea of how a decent low priced app will sell.
I think the best thing for GG right now would be to own the market by putting the iphone version of torque out there for $100 with no royalites for the next 3 months. Early adopters get reward with lower entry fees and GG gets rewarded by getting a lot of torque based games out there fast as well as a large pool of devs helping them to refine their product.
After those 3 months GG can look at the apps stats for games and see how much money a top 100 game makes, how much money a game at #250, at #500 etc makes and then come up with a licensing fee.
Either that or just do what I suggested before and come up with a system of a small charge for everyone and then a larger fee if they actually make it to the app store and if they actually have a decent sales / income.
Mike
Torque 3D Owner DALO
Maybe have this option:
0$ for first title(1 time only) 30% royalty
Pros: Gives the developers a taste of the iPhone game world, affordable for everyone. No loss for the developers and GG still get's something out it. GG will attract more developers to try out their iPhone sdk.
Cons: Royalties as usual.
Yeah, just some random thoughts that crossed my mind........