Game Development Community

Paying for Torque Engine Mods (Overly Idealistic ;-)

by Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr · in Torque Game Engine · 10/29/2002 (8:14 pm) · 10 replies

(Go ahead and read the fluff - I'm throwing down the gauntlet and challenging people at the bottom of this entry, so don't get bored and leave ;-)

Ya know, I've been thinking deeply about something recently. I'm using a LOT of stuff from different people here in the community - Melv's toys, some work from Matt W., Joshua Ritter just came up with a cool new day / night sequencing system, DOT3 Bumpmapping is said to be released sometime this month, and all sorts of other cool TGE mods.

Of course, I've only submitted ONE resource for the engine - a client-end particle reduction system. (One of these days I'll finish my terrain deformation system, and submit it. But that's got to wait a bit now, because once DOT 3 bumpmapping is in there, then I've got to worry about a whole new level of complexity on the terrain! ;-)

Needless to say, there's not a whole lotta ballance there. I'm planning on knocking on some publisher's doors when I'm done with Trajectory Zone (And brought a veteran onboard to help with that!) to try and maximize the number of titles sold.

I gotta admit - I'm starting to feel a little pang of guilt from that ;-) Not a huge one - people did submit these patches without a licensing requirement (or else they just say to mention them in the credits) I think it's cool that people are submitting all sorts of cool stuff to the engine - lets face it, the engine would get stale quick without it.

I've already once seen someone have to stop and think about how they wanted to submit a change to the engine - should it be under a specialized license, or just given freely to the community?

Point blank, some people want money. Some people want recognition. Some people just want to play with the engine and do cool things. But they all have something in common - eventually, they are going to get bored with coding the engine for fun (or, bored with not getting much back out of it), and quit working on the engine. Then the community looses another clueful coder, and potentially loose a whole host of future improvements to the engine.

So here's the challenge I'm making to everyone:
I'm going to step up to the plate, and start this. Anyone who is using the Torque engine, and using community resources that enhance the engine, set aside 1% of your profits (Net) right up front. Keep track of all the engine enhancements you use, and who did 'em. It's not that hard, really - just add a comment line that says something like

// GGRESOURCE:  FxFoliage by Melv May (melv.may@btinternet.com)

When you are done with the project, go back and grep (or search, pick your platform ;-) for all the GGRESOURCE: lines, and see who's stuff you used. Then, decide who gets how much out of that 1% of your profits. Then email em (and if you made it easy and used the line I used above, it will be a cinch to look up what it was, who did it, and know how to contact 'em!), and tell 'em what up. If they refuse the split, no problem - just throw it back in the original 1% pool, and resplit it up among the remaining contributors.

This way, everyone who has submitted kick ass code, or is thinking about it (like James Lupiani's Multi-Texturing code) has real incentive to do it. They get recognition, and they get money for helping you with your game! Granted, 1% is not a HUGE amount - but it's something they didn't have before. I mean, what better incentive to get Melv to release his new FxBeerShader code than to put beer money in his pocket?!

I've got two commercial game projects started using the Torque engine, heavily enhanced with community code. So I'm going to kick this off - I'm putting aside 1% from both of those projects for giving back to those who contributed changes to the engine within the last year that I'm making heavy duty use of. (Yes, I'm putting a stipulation of 1 year on the code I'm 'paying' for - the reason is, past a certain point it may have become a change to the Torque HEAD or release branches, which means it becomes almost impossible to track (unless, of course, the author uses the line I mentioned above), and after a while the pool might become TOO diluted to be useful. Plus, after 1 year, it's old hat unless they have made some massive overhauls to it ;-)

I'm considering it an investment in a product that I use. Yes, it's just a little more cash out of my project (which, for Trajectory Zone is actually a little painful - there's 9 people on the project, all with thier hands in the profits ;-). But then again, if *I* had to put all the effort into creating those modifications to the engine, how long would it have taken? And if I didn't use the modifications, then what would my game look like, sound like, and feel like? I hate code bloat, so I don't just throw things in for the heck of it - if I use it, it's for a reason.

So there it is - there's the guantlet I'm throwing down. Let's give people incentive to make the Torque engine ROCK!

If ya agree with this, and you are someone submitting enhansements to the engine - say so! If you are a game developer looking at creating or are currently creating a commercial project with Torque, are usin' some of the engine modifications from the community and plan on doin' this too - say so. Then other people will know that it's a supported concept! (And I'll know I'm not a dork for suggesting it ;-)

----
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr
Owner, Midnight Ryder Technologies

#1
10/29/2002 (9:01 pm)
Excellent post...

Here is my viewpoint on the matter... with some background...

Once upon a time (1996), I founded a game company called Canopy Games.. which is still making games, though now I contract with them... anyway, we did something like 9 titles in 4 years... For most of this I was the sole programmer... I wrote the engine... the art tools... the multiplayer code... the installshields... everything... and I got pretty burned out...

I spent 6 months fulltime playing Everquest and knew where I wanted my career to lead... MMP technology... I canceled my accounts and charged forward... as an independant... as in myself...

I wanted to use Torque but the license... oh, the license... I was patching together Open Source projects into an engine when I learned the license would be changing... I dropped all my work and switched to Torque...

After many months of fulltime, intense hacking on the engine... I can safely say now I have a very good understanding of the engine's systems... enough that I could change/fix anything I run into... this understanding feels very good...

I have made some stuff which I believe has worth.. TGEPython and the Day/Night stuff...

I struggled with the license for TGEPython.. I decided on letting it go for two reasons:

1) I think this could have a large impact on Torque if widely adopted... a.k.a. I hope people use it, and write awesome Python stuff...

2) I am not set up to accept money/ handle tech support on the code... My project is MASSIVE... I can't handle anything more...

The Day/Night stuff will most likely not be released... I have pretty much described exactly what I did elsewhere. The only trick is in finessing it to look good(and merging Melv's stuff in *grin*)... if you know OpenGL and want this functionality it's a Day or Two... if you don't... it might be a good way to learn :)

Some reasons in list form:

1) I simply do not have the time to make a release... I am in the process of getting my game and company launched...

2) It is intrusive to the engine... as there were a number of engine parts I needed to patch...

That being said... as an independant game developer, I am in constant risk of starvation... monetary reward for taking the time to package this up nicely could loosen the noose...

Bluntly, there isn't much stuff on the site I would be willing to pay for... this includes code snippets and/or stuff I have seen in screenshots... but this isn't the point... Garage Games is an EXCELLENT independant game maker's resource... as I think it is intended to be...

Perhaps if there was a way to make money here, it would drive programmers to make lot's of good stuff and release it ... I don't know...

What I do know is this: ENOUGH CODE... I NEED ART!

-J
#2
10/29/2002 (10:48 pm)
I suppose I should clarify one thing I left unmentioned - me personally, I don't expect code patching to come with support. If ya got time to answer a question, cool. If not, well, I might use it, or I might chuck it if I have problems (ran across that exact problem once already. Chucked the offending code, did things a different way.)

For me, it's a numbers game here. I'd pay for some things easily - FxFoliage replicator, while a bit cheezy in some ways, was a perfect solution to a problem (dense foliage.) It never occured to me to come up with something like it. If it had, it would have taken me time to write, debug, etc.

When I do consulting work, I charge between $45 and $65 and hour ($65 is what happens when someone calls me at 1 AM with a problem. $45 is what happens when someone calls me at 1 PM with a problem ;-) At my day job (yep, I still got one o' those. Even if I COULD quit right now, they would probably have me killed for leaving at this particular time! :-), I make about half that - still not bad.

So, if it took me 3 days of my time to come up with and implement something like FxFoliage, right there that's about $1000 of my time I just gave up if I would have continued consulting instead. That's how I gauge the value of things like this - if I wouldn't have wasted the time there, what would it have been worth instead? So, I'm willing to pay for stuff like that.

If enough people feel the same, and realize how much time / effort was saved by someone else's work, and adopt a concept like this - well, wouldn't ya be a lot more interested in taking the time to make a code release? ;-)
#3
10/30/2002 (1:01 am)
I gotta be honest,

Any code snippets or resources that I post ar eposted in the hope that people will use them, learn from them and make great games with them (and hopefully not abuse me).

The only thing I would be looking for would be a small credit.

Now obviously, some people are driven by money but really, I think that most contributers post resources through sheer goodwill. Am I wrong?
#4
10/30/2002 (1:24 am)
@daniel : i agree with you. If someone uses one of the resources i put here, i will only ask for a greetings in the credits :) otherwise i will not have published this resource.
#5
10/30/2002 (1:59 am)
I wouldn't want money for my work, I'd only spend it on books or beer or both anyway!

For me, a little credit does much more for the soul than a handful of cash in my pocket.

You can't buy self-esteem but then again self-esteem doesn't get you many beers at the bar!

... awww now I'm confused at what I want! ;)

- Melv.
#6
10/30/2002 (6:59 am)
Money is a real factor if you don't have a day job... just because you NEED money to work on the thing you love... doesn't mean that it is your primary motivator...

This isn't a black and white subject ...

-J
#7
10/30/2002 (7:55 pm)
Since this subject matter only targets those with TGE, I was feeble and posted this, in the Private SDK Discussion Forums (two days ago).

My views on the subject are present in provided thread.
#8
10/30/2002 (8:35 pm)
hehe, I even give credit for the resources of the on-line version of credits section which is apart of the news system of my game. :P
#9
10/31/2002 (5:47 am)
I think this is a great idea. I am certainly willing to do this. Not sure if I will ever release a game; but I would want to give back to people that helped make the best game I could make.
#10
10/31/2002 (10:27 am)
Hi Guys,

Very interesting thread. The way I see it is if a person wants money for their mod. That's fine. If they want credit for their mod. That's fine too. There are many good people who are willing to share their time and brain with us and I must say that I appreciate their work. Melv is a person who I respect in that regard. His work and willingness to help other members so kindly is a good example. Another person is Lightwave Dave. His plugin allowed me to stick with lightwave. His plugin is awesome. I wish to help and contribute as well, but my talents are limited and I am still learning the engine. I have been mostly working on creating 3d contents using lightwave.

Anyway, I have a suggestion that I would like to make. We all know we need arts! Gui, textures, images, and 3d models. We can also use some cool enhancements to the engine as well. We need buildings and structures too!

Maybe someone is GG can do these things:
1. Identify what is needed and catergorize them. Art, Engine mod, interiors, and etc.

2. Create a small groups that will focus on specific area of need. For example Art Group, Engine Mod Group...

3. Ask members to join that group who are willing to dedicate their time and talents.

4. Each group will have a milestone goal and maybe a leader to manage that goal.

This can be another community effor to benefit everyone who bought the engine.

I am a firm believer in teamwork. We have a great community with so many people with so many talents. If we can somehow focus that in a spefic area, I think we can benefit everyone in the community at the end. Yes, we won't see money right away, but our games will be better in many ways.

I hope I don't sound stupid. My head feels little weird right now. I was stuck in the elevator this morning at 7AM for about 50 mintues. My butt feels frozen... ^^ Maybe my brain is still frozen...

I have made some nice looking palm trees and few player models using lightwave. I have started working on my game called "Ball Wars". I know it sounds little corny but the idea if pretty good. I will post some shots of the models that I created and a plan.

Let me know what you guys think about this group idea.

Thanks.