Max2Dif

#41 That kind of what I thought Jeff, and think its a real shame, however I can understand that you demographic is mostly make up of modders who use regular mod tools so I guess its understandable that your going to cater for their needs above the pro's that have the expensive commercial tools. It's a lot of extra work for a tiny portion of the community.

#42 Adrian I don't know where you get this misconception that WorldCraft is not a "pro" tool? It was written and designed by the "pro's" at Valve! It has been used on numerous wildly successful commercial projects. Quark is just another editor that does the same type of thing CSG modeling, it does have an backwards interface but some people love it???? Matter of fact, an upgraded version of Worldcraft/Hammer is being used for the level building on Half-Life 2.

3DStudio MAX ( and every other general purpose 3D modeling and animation tool ) is just not suitable for CSG modeling. Period, end of story.

#43 Yes I know, thats not what I meant, the games I work on don't use CSG modelers and I have no intention of making a FPS. Also I have never applied for a commercial game job that required the Use of CSG editors. It just isn't that common outside of FPS games, and FPS games are still a small but significant part of the games industry but most devs don't use CSG editors.

I was shortlisted to work as a contractor on Halo 2 earlier this year as a Environment modeler including interiors/structures etc and they wanted max and maya modelers only. I've held 2 commercial artist positions in the last 5 years and completed 3 commercial 3D games, plus attended 7 interviews non of which used CSG editors in their art pipeline and all required either Max or Maya as the primarary level and environment building tool.

Thats where I get my experience from, first hand experience ...

#44 If you're a pro with the expensive commercial tools, get the expensive commercial engine that sup...requires them.

The fact is, there is a way to go from Max -> .dif, so what if it has an intermediate step. It's a step that you can use to load that file into Quark or Worldcraft and see how it will look.

You would think with the number of Indie programmers with Max licenses, people wouldn't be complaining when another indie decides to sell a pack for a few dollars.

Frankly I'm tired of hearing the complaints about the lack of support for tools that cost anywhere from $1,000 - $5,000.

TGE needs support for tools that are affordable for the Indie Developer. Having a copy of 3DMax does not instantly gift you with the ability to create the best game out there. You need to have talent to begin with, and if you have talent, it doesn't matter if you're using a free tool or a tool that cost $20,0000.

#45 Yes I agree, but tools go a long way in helping tallented artists get the job done without a lod of frivilrous bumf to put up with in between. Fortunately I do have an engine and a great exporter. I'm just joining in the conversation becaus ethis is an area that TGE is definately lacking.

I didn't realise that TGE was for creating the same old FPS clones and hoped it might become more flexible than that. But it needs better tools to reach its full potential.

For the longest time I thought GG was primarily a place for indies to discuss game development in general and share experiences. It's becoming pretty obvious that this is far from the truth. Oh well.

#46 I'm confused. Why does having CSG based interiors mean Torque is only suitable for FPS games?

RTS, flight simulators, racing, and so on wouldn't need interiors at all, CSG or poly-soup.

What kinds of games do you feel are excluded?

#47 There needs to be a better art path for Torque. I assure you that there is work being done in this area, but it is not yet ready for public consumption. Until it is, you'll have to live with what's there, or roll your own.

Really, since you're not using TGE, I don't think that there needs to be a protracted discussion about what you think on the matter. Yes, you're absolutely right. I think we all agree that "max2dif" would be a cool and useful tool. I we also all agree that BSP does limit the artist a bit, and that it would be nice if we could support arbitrary environments. And that's where this conversation should stop, unless someone is willing to put their money where their mouth is and develop a solution.

Going further in the discussion without bringing substance to the table is going to result in nothing but hard feelings, as you've discovered. GG is certainly a place where you can discuss most anything concerning game development, but that doesn't mean you can check your common sense at the door. :)

#48 I have yet to see a good example of any of these genre's done in TGE. And I'm pretty confident that most artists would prefer 'poly soup' to the restrictions that a CSG editor provide mostly in the name of being convenient for coders rather than the innefficiency of running it on todays hardware. Since most of you probably aren't artists you probably don't really understand what I'm talking about.

#49 Ben, It's hardly my fault that the minute I criticise something everyone jumps on my arse. I've been interested in TGE for a while and even turned down paid contract work because of the lousy art path. Whatever I do I have to thing about speed and efficiency and cost and whether I can do what needs to be done to the required quality without wasting time and money fighting with ill concieved tools.

TGE has come up several times as an option to produce games, both my projects, and paid contract work, which is why I have a passing interest in how the exporter is coming along, if at all. you can have all the possible eye candy features in the world but they aren't going to be much use if you if the artists have a torturous path through which to tap them.

#50 Somehow i don't quite get the link between game genre and map editor....

Personally i don't think the torque art path is bad; Cmon, all you need is a 3d modeller for the dts shapes, and a csg editor for the interiors (e.g QuaRK).

Make your models, make your interiors, use the world editor to place it all around the map... add some scripting to make it more dynamic... hey presto, some sort of game!

Sure, its not the best in the world, but its all a matter of opinion.

My opinion on this is the same as ben's; If you can't be constructive and come up with a solution that is going to be workable, and people are willing to implement it, then theres no point in continuing this conversation.

#51 It's not your fault that people have jumped on your arse; it is your fault if you react to that. :)

If you think that TGE's tools are ill-conceived, you're under no obligation to fight with them - please, move on to tools that make you happier. I'll freely admit that the tools here aren't the nicest in the world and that they need work. If you have to turn down contract work because of the tools, well, that's a shame, too. I'm glad you're succesful enough you have that option. :)

Anyway, I think you've sort of made all the points here that you're going to be able to make. We agree with you on most of your major points.

#52 Yeah I agree Ben. Sorry to all the guys that got wound up too. I tried to make all my points and am sorry that things got a bit heated. Wasted far too much time harping on here too ;) and got work to get on with.

thanks for putting some common sense into the thread Ben, hope the art path you were talking about in your previous post pops up in the not to distant future.

Heh, I think I need to learn a bit more about discussing things in the forums, way to easy to get dragged into something that your not really all that worried about.

#53 Complain all you want about the "limitations" of CSG models and their "limitations" I have built some incredibly detailed maps for Half-Life and it did not "limit" CounterStrike or its artist which produced the most popular online multi-player game of all time from gaining the fanatical following that it has!

That said, CSG is really hard for most 3D artists to get their heads around that don't understand the technical details. Another misconception that you have Adrian is that is that way "because it is easier on the coders", which is the exact opposite.

Everything that is done a certain way, is done so it is "easier on the CPU/GPU" because in the end that is what matters.

#54 2 to 3 years ago that mattered, doday it isn't as important unless your targeting very low spec systems like P2 350's with Geforce 1,2

you can get the same kind of efficiency with better looking graphics using custom built meshes, invisible geometry for colisions and picks, and manually placed occluder planes. It just depends on the experience of your team.

#55 That's the point... Indies can't afford to try and target the bleeding edge. Indies are targeting those two or three year old systems, because the Professional Game Companies have abandoned them.

For some reference to games that use CSG, current, upcoming, FPS and non-FPS

udnbeta.epicgames.com/Powered/WebHome

#56 Come on guys, whether he's right or not, there's no reason to argue the point this much. :)

CSG is indeed a powerful tool, but I've also seen good things done with non-CSG levels - Mario 64, for instance, had polygon soup AFAIK, and it was an excellent game. There are a lot of platformers done in the similar vein, and they were all well done and, within the N64's limitations, visually compelling. And the N64 sure isn't bleeding edge. ;)

Personally, I'll probably stick with BSP and CSG for a while longer, but Adrian is certainly welcome to embrace an alternative. I can definitely see the advantages to his point of view.

In the end, this is all background noise to the purpose of creating games. Whatever tools work, whatever engines work, go use them. And then, preferably, publish them through GG so you can get a nice chunk of royalties. ;)

#57 You have to realise that a good 2-3 year old system is one much like the one I'm using now. Athlon 1200 64mb GF3 512mb of ram. That can run almost any modern game at 800x600 32bit with the graphics settings maxed out. My minimum spec for my next game is a P2 400 32mb GF2 64mb of ram that systems my internet machine and about 4 years old.

This coming year is probably going to be the first that actually requires a new system to play the latest games, there just hasn't been anything around prior to deus ex 2 and halo that required anything more than 1gz and a video card going back 2 generations.

#58 Here is a new .map export process that can be used with 3DS Max or the free GMAX...

http://www.maple3d.com/ScriptsCenterPage.htm

I will see what I can find for .dif conversions.

Jay

#59 That's pretty nice looking. I'd love to see a .dif created from that tool.

#60 Yes but it looks like that tool is more suited to do rooms *inside*... =/