I Want My Money Back

#21 @Gary - Compiler updates are actually what help reduce undefined behavior. For instance, at one point you could actually compile these lines of code:

delete 0;
int x = 32 / 0;

O_o

Not anymore, as Visual Studio throws an error on those.

#22 It's funny how threads like these can get so off topic... =D

#23 That's one of the most frustrating things about the internets - all flamewars inevitably devolve into intelligent discussions.

#24 @Steven - passing through all the offtopic posts, the offer still stands. If you need help getting Lightwave meshes into Torque I can help you out.

#25

delete 0;

Actually I believe that's perfectly valid and defined. One of the rare cases :-)

Gary (-;

#26 For Steve, I can understand your original frustration as I have been there as well with another product.

Seems the community loves TGE/A so much that many of them chimed in to defend this great engine.

Nothing for nothing but.. There is no shame in saying "I don't know how.. Please help".. no matter how smart you are. Even Einstein struggled in school believe it or not, as did Thomas Edison.
I'd even venture to say that the folks at GG that write the engine code don't know 100% of it individually, to answer any question that might come up and I bet they send Memo's for help to another employee that may lead them to an answer.

In anycase, hang in there, because when it works in Torque, it works beautifully.

#27 Funny,

%h = 10; %h= %h++; echo(%h);

does result in 11 in TorqueScript. Than again, it's not really the same thing. And I do know what undefined behaviors are but I just didn't know the term. I caught the cause of the problem, I just couldn't see the problems effect :)

#28 Note there's a bug (or unexpectedness) in torquescript, in which "%foo++" actually pre-increments %foo, rather than post-incrementing it. that is, "%foo++" in torquescript is equivelant to "++%foo" in just about any other language which has the "++" operator.

#29 @Morrock - by the time echo prints %h it is 11. If you wrote %htemp = %h++; and echoed %htemp you would get 10.

#30

Quote:@Morrock - by the time echo prints %h it is 11. If you wrote %htemp = %h++; and echoed %htemp you would get 10

Actually, no. As Orion mentioned, torque's %var++ is actually a preincrement operator

Gary (-;

#31 Andy, that is not the case:

%h1 = 10;
%h2 = %h1++;
echo (%h2);      // Prints 11
echo (%h1++);  // Prints 12

It is as Orion said, %i++ is a pre-increment operator in TS, not post-increment.

#32 I'm glad that things got sorted out. I especially want to thank Michael Perry for his response, though.

I never recieved an e-mail from you about wanting a refund in either my inbox or spam filters or I would have been alerted to the difficulties you were having earlier. Let us know how things are going for you now.

#33 Correct me if I am wrong which I probably am, but if you wanted to put a .lwo file into torque, wouldn't you get a .dts exporter for lightwave?

#34 Yes. You would use Dave Wyand's exporter for Lightwave.

#35 Every thing seem hard if u just sit and say some magical words to complete the game. Torque is easy as compare to other engine. I don't know with what r u comparing it with (HTML).

#36 Note to self I really should write that "Make My Game" button

All kidding aside, Steven I hope you do take the leap into learning Torque. The community here are really helpful and the engine is really top-notch.

#37 Lol, damn, late on the flame bait again.
I'm trying to take the post for what it really is, the growing pains of a Torque newb.

In ANY engine, there are two parts that I consider the most complex: Programming and 3D Art
Being a person who wakes up my better half babbling code snippets and theory in my sleep the only other developer role I consider as complex as programming is the 3D artist.
And I mean real 3D artists, not just downloading meshes from Planet Half-Life or Turbo Squid and exporting it to whatever flavor of the month engine.
When I first came to GG a mildly similar thing happened to me...
I have a very deep background (network security, casino software development, security pen testing, and much more) based off of real life experience (I went right into the industry to learn from pros in the field, not teachers) for a few of the largest gaming companies in the US.
I'm not trying to toot my own horn, just explaining that I thought I had all the "big guns loaded" and the "decks stacked" to create an MMO with Torque.
GG employees kept telling me that I probably wouldn't be able to create an MMO with torque (this was before Minions of Mirth).
This seriously pissed me off.
But they were right in telling me this, my chances were slim, even with my background.
The truth is, GG had my best interests (and my health) in mind.
I even had shopped other engines (and had been previously using TrueVision3D) because of what they told me.
In the end I came back to Torque.
There were too many reasons to list.
But the biggest one was this:
The Torque Game Engine and it's community is geared toward supporting it's thousands of developers and the ever growing technology of the video game industry.
Currently my project Ruin Online has pushed the Torque technology well beyond what I thought I could originally do with it.
My main point is, no matter how buff you think you are, or what engine you start with, you may not have what it takes... at first.
With blood and sweat, anything is possible.
If you are looking for an instant game maker, there are a few out there, and IMO they all suck (trust me, I own nearly all of them).
Well, ok, at least with Torque I was running around shooting crossbows at my friends via multi-player in the first few minutes.
Just don't expect to get away unscathed if you are serious about game development.

Quote:
1) Easy integration with many 3D modeling packages - BS...I don't know what qualifies as easy, but i've been trying to get something, anything, from lightwave into torque for months...and i've gotten absolutely nothing but headaches.

.lwo, .obj and other formats Lightwave are easily exported into Torque.
My favorite app is MilkShape because of the price and numerous engines it supports for import/export.
Don't let the price fool you, it's a great swiss army knife for 3D apps and engines.
My team and myself use many different applications and many exporters with Torque.
It's really about your art pipeline and being familiar with the exporter (same in every engine I have used since Quake 1).
My project team and I take Torque 3D art very seriously and once upon a time I was as frustrated as you.
Here's my proof.

Quote:
2) Powerful and easy-to-use scripting language - Lies

Torque Script is incredible and VERY powerful.
After my years of playing with QuakeC and C++ network applications, it felt like a feather bed that smelled of an ex-girlfriend.
Comfortable and familiar.
It took some time to learn the thousands of tricks that made it EPIC, but then again I'm still learning sweet tricks in PHP also and at night, Russian.
Languages take time and some are better then others.
You studied CS, you should know this if you applied any of it.

Quote:
3) not once do you mention that this is a bunch of source code with no actual stand alone application. I can't believe I paid 300 dollars for a bunch of horribly unorganized code. Put that in your advertisements.

Every version of the Torque Engine that I have bought came with a demo application.
The code is VERY organized, you must not have read it enough.
As for needing a compiler, only if you wish to make engine changes, my project is probably %80 script.
Also, the term "Open Source" usually suggests that you will need a compiler.

My suggestions are to work the forums search tool and make friends with other devs (doing good so far).
There are many, many developers here who have probably been in your shoes at one time or another and most are VERY friendly.
Post your EXACT troubles and many times you get a response within a week from somebody.
Or you can also try the GG IRC channel for live help.
If you had posted your exact art troubles I might have been able to help you myself or asked a member of my art team to help you.
Communication is KEY in the online world.
I hope this advice helps with whatever engine, development project, or problem you are having.
Your post made me want to pwn teh nubclot with my twinx and tell you to go sip a juicebox of STFU!!1
But sometimes, even "griefers" like me are willing to reach out and help a struggling developer. ;)

#38 ...Rome was not built in a day. ..bleh blah bleh blah.
I do agree that the demos are a bit "lackluster" on getting people moving with the engine but that is how their marketing works. They show you/tell you things and you follow the information with your own contextual point of view hanging into every step of the interpretation....well, there are a few blatant misrepresentations on the site but the larger portion of your 1st post leads me to believe that you thought things to be easier than they proposed rather than they did not deliver a promised feature.

Is Torque the best engine in the world ? Of course not.
Is Torque the best engine I have seen for $300 and no more hassle besides EULA snippets? Yes.

// advice:
Don't try to push the GG 3d engines past casual game construction limitations unless you have a team working on optimizations. Look up Toby the Turtle..this is what torque is meant for IMO. Nice Nintendo like games are perfect and fun.
- Don't 'fully' trust the search function at this site...I would mainly trust the weeks that you will put in to testing and checking things by yourself.

I have to agree that communication is key..afterall, we can't read each others brains. Be specific and layout each step of your issue. Never post "gah!, thing not work like me *bang fook*!". :P

Get a refund if you still want one, but I think if you take a breath and step back for a few days that you will appreciate what is going on here. Alot of people will help you if you are respectful to the fact that they don't HAVE to help you. Being courteous is never a bad thing and it goes to say alot about you, as a person. Besides..after the first few initial headaches...you should really start to enjoy yourself.

:)
Good luck either way.

P.S. pay attention to the good advice from the veterans here. It is worth it's weight in gasoline/petrol.

#39 @Brokeassgames:

Quote:After my years of playing with QuakeC and C++ network applications, it felt like a feather bed that smelled of an ex-girlfriend.
Comfortable and familiar.

Dude.. I'm SO stealing that.. :)

I've been using the Torque engine for almost three years now. I think most of the ups and downs and advantages and disadvantages have been mentioned before, but I'm going to throw my two cents in on this thread anyway..

I just had a recent discussion with a friend of mine about 3d engines.. and I came to find out what he wanted was much more along the lines of what Unity offers, and perhaps TGB. An application that has everything rolled under the hood. As BAG said it -- there are plenty of others out their, and they're about as good as their limitations allow them to be. If you're trying to do something the builders of the application didn't forese, you're probably hosed. As long as you're working inside those limitations, you're golden.

TGE and TGEA are NOT that. They're engines. They're a collection of libraries and tools and the best thing about them is you are virtually unlimited in what you want to do. But they are for developers. I wouldn't recommend them for people looking to make their first game with nothing but an idea in their head. But on the plus side -- and this is a huge plus -- if you do know what you're doing and have the right expectations what you're getting -- there is no limit to what you can do. And the thing is, I've worked with a number of other engines, including extensive work with Unreal 3. And for the price? As a game engine Torque cannot be beat. Bar none.

But even if you know what you're doing, Torque *does* have its weaknesses, and of those, I would definitely say the art pipeline is probably Torque's weakest point. Right now I think there are two solutions that work well for .DTS's and .DSQ's -- 3DMax, and Blender. If you're not using one of those solutions, in *my* experience, you're in for some significant frustration. Now, the good thing is the GG developers are, I think aware of this, and it sounds like they're making efforts to remedy this. I haven't tried Houdini and the new exporter yet, but from what I understand, this is the best exporter that's been built for the project so far. And I hear they're working on improvements for other systems as well. So while the art pipeline itself is probably TGEA's weakest link, all indicators are it's getting better.

My 2 cents worth.. and to the OP, good luck with your project. :)

#40 Getting objects into torque from lightwave is easy and there's tutorials on how to do it. The scripting language for torque IS easy if you know anything about programming and your comments shows your lack of experience in the process of making a game. You say you've been trying to get things into torque for months??? Seriously? If you have a question thats what the GettingStarted forum is for. If you bought the license then you have access to the forums and a nice & simple "how do i do this...." will result in people helping you.