Idea about death in game
by Kelly \"Dervish\" Beck · in General Discussion · 10/17/2002 (1:11 pm) · 6 replies
I was reading the potentially outdated character death section of the RW documentation at the documentation site.
I think making the new death experience adds a new and different level of complexity to the gameplay; however, the lifestone idea is potentially perilous to gameplay. The enemy holding your lifestone and spawn killing is almost as much fun as a sharp stick in the eye and prevents all participation in the game. I think fixed and visible respawn points simultaniously interfere with fair gameplay and become the focus of the game via the need to defend them.
That aside, The "land of the dead" idea does reward a well-executed defensive effort a better chance to counter-attack. This is innovative alternative to the irritation of respawn timers. The opposing team gets a tactical advantage without a gameplay interruption for the recently slain player. We should be able to accomplish making the amount of time in the dead state a certain fraction of alive game time. Not sure what this amount should be, but some reasearch could be done.
Some questions that come to mind:
Would the dead interact with the living, and if so, what actions would be allowed?
Given that having to walk to some point from your corpse leads to a tactical disadvantage and might be seen as irritating for players used to being thrown right back into the action, could we make the death experience afford some advantage for the slain?
I think making the new death experience adds a new and different level of complexity to the gameplay; however, the lifestone idea is potentially perilous to gameplay. The enemy holding your lifestone and spawn killing is almost as much fun as a sharp stick in the eye and prevents all participation in the game. I think fixed and visible respawn points simultaniously interfere with fair gameplay and become the focus of the game via the need to defend them.
That aside, The "land of the dead" idea does reward a well-executed defensive effort a better chance to counter-attack. This is innovative alternative to the irritation of respawn timers. The opposing team gets a tactical advantage without a gameplay interruption for the recently slain player. We should be able to accomplish making the amount of time in the dead state a certain fraction of alive game time. Not sure what this amount should be, but some reasearch could be done.
Some questions that come to mind:
Would the dead interact with the living, and if so, what actions would be allowed?
Given that having to walk to some point from your corpse leads to a tactical disadvantage and might be seen as irritating for players used to being thrown right back into the action, could we make the death experience afford some advantage for the slain?
About the author
#2
I thought I would post my current position on a few of my own questions and elaborate on the idea I am working on before I forget.
I don't think the dead should interact with the living because this opens the door to risk-free spying on the opposing team. This should certainly not be allowed, but the ghosts should be able to interact with each other in certain ways. (I dont suppose you can kill a ghost, but anything is possible)
I think the revive idea is cool, and does give a proposed healer class some added playability. We could set knockout time to someshort time so as not to give the attacking team the ability to remain at the defending teams base indefinately, and, after the time is up (I would say about 10 seconds) the player must walk back.
Flying and free movement (preferably faster than normal to ad some fun) are qualities of ghosts we all might fear and love, but moving through solid surfaces would probably cause a lot of problems. I think we have all gotten "stuck" in a terrain map or object at least once.
I had an idea about the respawn situation... I think we could create a border around each teams home area that would act as an infinite set of respawn points. A player would respawn by walking or flying across it(assuming he/she is already dead). We can make a newly respawned player invernerable for 5 seconds to take care of falling people.
I am not sure how/if this could be implemented (I suppose you could use the some of the code used in implementing area effects), but it would add to the medieval aspect of the game by marking a border to each teams "homeland" (could even make rock walls, fences, ditches, etc. appear in the game as markers. I suppose a circular radius around the center of each home base would be the simplest to code, but a terrain based line would be more realistic and cool.
This would eliminate the need for a respawn timer, and make the time a person is dead proportional to their distance from home. As for those who die at home, the attackers could be given their proper reward by having the recently slain defender forced to his border and respawned, a punishment for not properly defending the home. To a worthy defense, a good chance at counter-attack is well deserved and rewarded.
We could use the "homeland" idea for other things too... A creature would know it's home better than it's enemies. To cross over the line between first person shooter and RPG just a little, certain slight advantages could be laid upon the player while at home. (better casting rates for magic users, maybe more endurance for a fighter, etc.)
I think this scenario takes care of your previous questions.
10/29/2002 (9:07 pm)
Thanks for the post Eli ;-)I thought I would post my current position on a few of my own questions and elaborate on the idea I am working on before I forget.
I don't think the dead should interact with the living because this opens the door to risk-free spying on the opposing team. This should certainly not be allowed, but the ghosts should be able to interact with each other in certain ways. (I dont suppose you can kill a ghost, but anything is possible)
I think the revive idea is cool, and does give a proposed healer class some added playability. We could set knockout time to someshort time so as not to give the attacking team the ability to remain at the defending teams base indefinately, and, after the time is up (I would say about 10 seconds) the player must walk back.
Flying and free movement (preferably faster than normal to ad some fun) are qualities of ghosts we all might fear and love, but moving through solid surfaces would probably cause a lot of problems. I think we have all gotten "stuck" in a terrain map or object at least once.
I had an idea about the respawn situation... I think we could create a border around each teams home area that would act as an infinite set of respawn points. A player would respawn by walking or flying across it(assuming he/she is already dead). We can make a newly respawned player invernerable for 5 seconds to take care of falling people.
I am not sure how/if this could be implemented (I suppose you could use the some of the code used in implementing area effects), but it would add to the medieval aspect of the game by marking a border to each teams "homeland" (could even make rock walls, fences, ditches, etc. appear in the game as markers. I suppose a circular radius around the center of each home base would be the simplest to code, but a terrain based line would be more realistic and cool.
This would eliminate the need for a respawn timer, and make the time a person is dead proportional to their distance from home. As for those who die at home, the attackers could be given their proper reward by having the recently slain defender forced to his border and respawned, a punishment for not properly defending the home. To a worthy defense, a good chance at counter-attack is well deserved and rewarded.
We could use the "homeland" idea for other things too... A creature would know it's home better than it's enemies. To cross over the line between first person shooter and RPG just a little, certain slight advantages could be laid upon the player while at home. (better casting rates for magic users, maybe more endurance for a fighter, etc.)
I think this scenario takes care of your previous questions.
#3
This solves the problem of appearing in a bad place and dying, also increases team work if players can summon spawn points for their buddies.
Owen
11/01/2002 (2:49 pm)
Personally I think that a Battlefield 1942 mentallity should be implemented, basically teams should be able to hold various points on the map and people can spawn there, perhaps priests can drop temporary points around that will let a couple of people spawn before being destroyed, or maybe have to be destroyed by enemy players. Players would then see a map of the battlefield with the places they can spawn, if the point is lost before spawning they have to chose another one.This solves the problem of appearing in a bad place and dying, also increases team work if players can summon spawn points for their buddies.
Owen
#4
Love the portable respawn point idea. Could add that too. Make the ghost idea the default, but if your team has some respawn points deployed one could choose to respawn there instead.
I think we should limit the number of these portable points, and, due to the serious tactical advantage they present, make them unwieldy (if you have played Tribes 2; I am thinking of something along the lines of the mobile point base that was heinously slow moving and unadorned with weapons) Would be fun to make the respawn point a sled that a player would have to pull. (think football player practice sled, if you have seen one, with rope attached to it)
Of course, implementing this would neccesitate adding a map dialoge to the death experience (in order to be able to choose from multiple respawn points) Do you think this extra step would irritate gamers?
11/03/2002 (1:40 pm)
Owen, Love the portable respawn point idea. Could add that too. Make the ghost idea the default, but if your team has some respawn points deployed one could choose to respawn there instead.
I think we should limit the number of these portable points, and, due to the serious tactical advantage they present, make them unwieldy (if you have played Tribes 2; I am thinking of something along the lines of the mobile point base that was heinously slow moving and unadorned with weapons) Would be fun to make the respawn point a sled that a player would have to pull. (think football player practice sled, if you have seen one, with rope attached to it)
Of course, implementing this would neccesitate adding a map dialoge to the death experience (in order to be able to choose from multiple respawn points) Do you think this extra step would irritate gamers?
#5
You die and become a ghost. You can either stand within 10 feet of your body and wait for a healer, or you may return to your own base. If you leave the 10 foot proximity area of your body, approaching teammates that target or get near you will receive a message that your spirit has left your body, and they will be unable to revive you. This is to stop instances in which you don't want to respawn where you were.
Now, as a ghost (observer mode), you are free to move much faster than you could, and aren't restricted by gravity in the sense that you can move up hills and mountains without any hindrance. It's also possible to allow the ghost flight, and simply create a code that places you at ground level when you choose to respawn.
Here's where the manual spawn placement comes in. You can either stay with your body, return to your base's spawn area, or find a deployable spawn area that a teammate has created with magic. Such deployable areas would probably have to be created with items, since we don't want to have a whole spell devoted to doing something so simple. You could buy this item from a NP using credits or fill an empty vial you find with neutral magical energy (you choose the empty vial to charge with magic rather than "Healing Spell" or "Poison Spell.")
That's how things should work in my mind, at least in TDMs. Making equipment that moves and acts as a spawn point is a big no-no in terms of the game's theme.
11/04/2002 (12:21 am)
While in terms of design it would work, in terms of gameplay compatability it makes no sense. For Realm Wars, it's best to leave equipment out of things like this. Now, in another situation, it would work, like this:You die and become a ghost. You can either stand within 10 feet of your body and wait for a healer, or you may return to your own base. If you leave the 10 foot proximity area of your body, approaching teammates that target or get near you will receive a message that your spirit has left your body, and they will be unable to revive you. This is to stop instances in which you don't want to respawn where you were.
Now, as a ghost (observer mode), you are free to move much faster than you could, and aren't restricted by gravity in the sense that you can move up hills and mountains without any hindrance. It's also possible to allow the ghost flight, and simply create a code that places you at ground level when you choose to respawn.
Here's where the manual spawn placement comes in. You can either stay with your body, return to your base's spawn area, or find a deployable spawn area that a teammate has created with magic. Such deployable areas would probably have to be created with items, since we don't want to have a whole spell devoted to doing something so simple. You could buy this item from a NP using credits or fill an empty vial you find with neutral magical energy (you choose the empty vial to charge with magic rather than "Healing Spell" or "Poison Spell.")
That's how things should work in my mind, at least in TDMs. Making equipment that moves and acts as a spawn point is a big no-no in terms of the game's theme.
#6
Portable spawns should take a while to create a body for the spirit that is trying to spawn there, so enemies can see the body forming and kill it before the player has control. Consider it much like Age of Empires buildings, major spawn points create a body and fill it with hit points in a very short period of time, say 1 second, then the player gains control, a portable spawn may take 5 or 6 seconds, during which if damage is taken the body is destroyed, which means that planting them in the enemy base will not give a huge advantage, because of the amount of time it takes for a player to form there, plus whilst assembling a player or 2 it becomes unavailable so you can't simply flood an area with additional players, it would be more like a forward base rather than a way of effectively infiltrating an enemy base.
I do dislike the ghost idea as new players and those unfamiliar with a map may become lost and unable to find a spawn, going to a map view prevents this. I don't like the idea of suddenly popping into the real world after X number of seconds whereever your ghost is standing, because it could break maps, as choosing the major spawn points are important to map design
Owen
11/05/2002 (8:08 am)
I think if you die you should go to an overhead view, and have a respawn time, during this your body remains on the battlefield and a healer can summon your back into it, but during this waiting you choose a respawn point, if time runs out then you respawn there.Portable spawns should take a while to create a body for the spirit that is trying to spawn there, so enemies can see the body forming and kill it before the player has control. Consider it much like Age of Empires buildings, major spawn points create a body and fill it with hit points in a very short period of time, say 1 second, then the player gains control, a portable spawn may take 5 or 6 seconds, during which if damage is taken the body is destroyed, which means that planting them in the enemy base will not give a huge advantage, because of the amount of time it takes for a player to form there, plus whilst assembling a player or 2 it becomes unavailable so you can't simply flood an area with additional players, it would be more like a forward base rather than a way of effectively infiltrating an enemy base.
I do dislike the ghost idea as new players and those unfamiliar with a map may become lost and unable to find a spawn, going to a map view prevents this. I don't like the idea of suddenly popping into the real world after X number of seconds whereever your ghost is standing, because it could break maps, as choosing the major spawn points are important to map design
Owen
Eli McClanahan
Here's my take on how it should go:
When you're knocked out, you stay that way for about 30 seconds. In this time, you appear on-screen as a transluscent "ghost" that can walk around freely to any position you like (you can even fly I guess, if you get trapped somewhere). If someone on your team (this is TDM) doesn't revive you within those 30 seconds, you "die." When you die, your ghost body becomes a real body once more, and you "respawn" at that position.
That allows you to safely decide where you want to be when you respawn without the fear of being killed.
There are a few concerns though:
*If you're high in the air when your time is up, do you fall to the ground and sustain damage? If forced to walk as a ghost, then you may not be able to get out of certain areas that caused you to die (large areas of lavas or deep pits in the terrain).
*Deciding where you want to respawn may backfire and cause a lot of people to get attacked from behind without notice. There would have to be some sort of limitation for where you can go, or how far.
*Knocking out someone means you'd have to sit there and protect their body from healers until it dies. In such a case, there would have to be a deathblow option in which you can kill someone that's dying. In this case, you wouldn't have much time to respawn because everyone would kill you instantly. To correct this, instead of being able to go anywhere, you could choose which of your team's spawnpoints you would like to spawn at within 30 seconds of being knocked out OR killed.