MAJOR Issue - Intel Mac TGB ATI Radeon
by Charles D. Szachta · in Torque Game Builder · 06/27/2008 (12:19 pm) · 12 replies
I am running TGB 1.7 on a Mac and when I run TGB a fan kicks on the machine running VERY loudly, like running at 3-4 times normal. I am assuming that the fan is the graphics card fan, although I have no idea. When I "Run Game" in TGB the noise becomes louder and higher pitched, like whatever fan it is starts running even faster. So that is the base problem, and this has been happening since I started using TGB.
About a week ago I had "ran the game" as I was checking my animations from the sprite sheet I just labored over. I had to walk away from the machine for a few minutes (it whirling away quite noisily the whole time as usual) and when I returned my monitor was black? I checked that it was on, changed inputs, etc. while becoming increasingly worried that something had happened to it. Not to mention not being able to see my computer to shut it down.
After about 1/2 hour of trying multiple things like unplugging connections/power and switching video inputs to the PS3 (which had also resulted in only a black screen, really increasing my worry for the monitor), I was forced to do a hard shutdown (cringe) and reboot. Much to my happiness after reboot the monitor was ok...
Which brings me to TGB. I have since been able to reproduce this event. After a few minutes (4-5) of the TGB game emulator running it seems to me that my graphics card has either overheated or shut itself down as a result of its struggle. Nothings has to be loaded in TGB to experience this.
I am an experienced computer user and in my many years I have NEVER seen a program that might possibly be causing damage to physical hardware of a machine. I am not sure if any damage is permanent or what is really happening. Needless to say, however, I have become VERY wary of using TGB at all. Hopefully someone has experienced this and can help? Could there be real damage potential with something like this (i.e. fire or dead card, etc?), as my fears are really stopping me from any future experimentation. Please help, and here are all the tec specs for anyone who wants specifics.
Mac Pro 3 Ghz Quad Core Intel Xeon
9 Gigs RAM
ATI Radeon X1900 XT
Dell 2407p Monitor
(need any other specs to help diagnose, let me know and I will respond promptly)
Patiently waiting in fear....
Chuck
About a week ago I had "ran the game" as I was checking my animations from the sprite sheet I just labored over. I had to walk away from the machine for a few minutes (it whirling away quite noisily the whole time as usual) and when I returned my monitor was black? I checked that it was on, changed inputs, etc. while becoming increasingly worried that something had happened to it. Not to mention not being able to see my computer to shut it down.
After about 1/2 hour of trying multiple things like unplugging connections/power and switching video inputs to the PS3 (which had also resulted in only a black screen, really increasing my worry for the monitor), I was forced to do a hard shutdown (cringe) and reboot. Much to my happiness after reboot the monitor was ok...
Which brings me to TGB. I have since been able to reproduce this event. After a few minutes (4-5) of the TGB game emulator running it seems to me that my graphics card has either overheated or shut itself down as a result of its struggle. Nothings has to be loaded in TGB to experience this.
I am an experienced computer user and in my many years I have NEVER seen a program that might possibly be causing damage to physical hardware of a machine. I am not sure if any damage is permanent or what is really happening. Needless to say, however, I have become VERY wary of using TGB at all. Hopefully someone has experienced this and can help? Could there be real damage potential with something like this (i.e. fire or dead card, etc?), as my fears are really stopping me from any future experimentation. Please help, and here are all the tec specs for anyone who wants specifics.
Mac Pro 3 Ghz Quad Core Intel Xeon
9 Gigs RAM
ATI Radeon X1900 XT
Dell 2407p Monitor
(need any other specs to help diagnose, let me know and I will respond promptly)
Patiently waiting in fear....
Chuck
About the author
#2
As far as the black screen, im not sure what happened there. Do you have any screensavers that kick in? Try disabling those. Have you ran and installed all the Apple updates? Etc..
Hope this helps explain a bit.
06/27/2008 (2:33 pm)
TGB, when maximized, will use 100% of your processing resources. This shouldn't cause your computer to blow up assuming it is placed in a normal, well ventilated area - though you will certainly hear fans and such spin up to compensate for the heat being generated. If you intend to walk away from the machine for a while, I recommend minimizing TGB while you do so, to reduce processor usage.As far as the black screen, im not sure what happened there. Do you have any screensavers that kick in? Try disabling those. Have you ran and installed all the Apple updates? Etc..
Hope this helps explain a bit.
#3
I am sure there is an important reason for TGB to be programmed to use 100% of the computers processing resources, but can you explain?... Why would a small software package like this need that kind of power. I can not imagine TGB EVER needing 8 3.0 Ghz processors for anything. The only time I have ever peaked the resources on this machine is maybe during a raytraced batch render, and even then I am not pegged at 100%.
I use a widget called iStat Pro to monitor the hardware performance, and when running TGB the majority of my CPU is idle. With the stats iStat provides I have to disagree with the 100% theory.
Also Kenneth, are you suggesting that if my machine was not in a properly ventilated area TGB COULD cause it to blow up? That is very distressing to say the least. I work on 500 mb photoshop files very regularly, and I have never had to worry about pushing the machine so hard as to actually cause hardware failures.
So, when my screen went black (a reproducible event) I have determined that the graphics card overheated. No screen-savers here and I am all Apple updated.
To respond to David, I have done some very heavy FCP work (like compressing/rendering 100 Gb video files) and never heard my fans kick in for this. Has your card ever overheated as a result? The fan issue is new to me, but it is understandable. My g-card shutting down is not.
So, thanks for help gentlemen, I however still wait for further discussion on this, as my future with TGB for this project is in limbo, which really sucks because we are more than 1/2 way thru, not a good time to switch... Even more disappointed as 2 of our future projects were going to be with TGE, but this situation really puts that future in jeopardy.
Thanks again and I hope to hear a little better explanation for this very troublesome problem.
- Chuck
06/28/2008 (6:57 am)
That does help explain a bit, I suppose, however here are some follow up questions.I am sure there is an important reason for TGB to be programmed to use 100% of the computers processing resources, but can you explain?... Why would a small software package like this need that kind of power. I can not imagine TGB EVER needing 8 3.0 Ghz processors for anything. The only time I have ever peaked the resources on this machine is maybe during a raytraced batch render, and even then I am not pegged at 100%.
I use a widget called iStat Pro to monitor the hardware performance, and when running TGB the majority of my CPU is idle. With the stats iStat provides I have to disagree with the 100% theory.
Also Kenneth, are you suggesting that if my machine was not in a properly ventilated area TGB COULD cause it to blow up? That is very distressing to say the least. I work on 500 mb photoshop files very regularly, and I have never had to worry about pushing the machine so hard as to actually cause hardware failures.
So, when my screen went black (a reproducible event) I have determined that the graphics card overheated. No screen-savers here and I am all Apple updated.
To respond to David, I have done some very heavy FCP work (like compressing/rendering 100 Gb video files) and never heard my fans kick in for this. Has your card ever overheated as a result? The fan issue is new to me, but it is understandable. My g-card shutting down is not.
So, thanks for help gentlemen, I however still wait for further discussion on this, as my future with TGB for this project is in limbo, which really sucks because we are more than 1/2 way thru, not a good time to switch... Even more disappointed as 2 of our future projects were going to be with TGE, but this situation really puts that future in jeopardy.
Thanks again and I hope to hear a little better explanation for this very troublesome problem.
- Chuck
#4
Thanks everyone,
Chuck
06/30/2008 (7:30 am)
Anyone else want to take a crack at solving this one for me? It is really my hope that someone else is experiencing this, and if so did you find a solution? I am to afraid to continue working in tgb, but I have a long list of stuff to do...Thanks everyone,
Chuck
#5
But I haven't seen video cards going crazy in TGB. Most game engines are resource hungry, as are graphics applications that have full control of the rendering device.
But I haven't seen anything quite like what you're experiencing, and I've run graphics cards, CPU's, and fans into the ground. For me, the cards usually just died. But if the fan on your card has died, it can significantly increase the temp inside your machine and cause other air-flow problems. And Mac's are designed for pretty much perfect airflow. Not getting the shield closed tight can cause G5's to kick their fans into overdrive because of incorrect airflow. I think of it as an alarm system, though, so that you can close the shield correctly.
Wish I could help more.
06/30/2008 (9:53 am)
My card's never died because of it, though I don't render to the screen when kicking out final video anyway. But I've definitely kicked my fans into overdrive processing video and effects in FCP and Boris!But I haven't seen video cards going crazy in TGB. Most game engines are resource hungry, as are graphics applications that have full control of the rendering device.
But I haven't seen anything quite like what you're experiencing, and I've run graphics cards, CPU's, and fans into the ground. For me, the cards usually just died. But if the fan on your card has died, it can significantly increase the temp inside your machine and cause other air-flow problems. And Mac's are designed for pretty much perfect airflow. Not getting the shield closed tight can cause G5's to kick their fans into overdrive because of incorrect airflow. I think of it as an alarm system, though, so that you can close the shield correctly.
Wish I could help more.
#6
Your computer should be able to run at 100% for as long as it takes to do whatever you need it to do. In the PC world, we just throw more fans in and keep going. For a MAC, the engineers have thought of all that and put in place very specific cooling mechanisms and maximized air flow.
If your graphics card is overheating, I can think of only 3 hardware related things that could cause this :
1. A problem with the fan on the card. Clogged with dust, failing outright, - either way, not doing its job properly
2. Ambient temperature around the computer is really hot, causing the whole cooling mechanism of the machine itself to not be bringing the internal temperature of the machine down to acceptable levels.
3. A bad video card itself.
Seriously, you bought a badass machine, you should be able to sit there, with your computer pegged at 100% indefinitely and your video card doing anything you can imagine as long as you are following common sense and not putting it in an oven or anything :). If not, there is a problem with the cooling. I would check for dust inside the fan of the card, and inside the case as well.
I know it's not a huge help, but that's all I can think of right now.
*Edit* - Found lots of links from people who have had overheating X1900 XT's in their Mac Pro's. It looks like the card uses the really thin-fin type of technology for the heatsink as well - in which case you wouldn't see a lot of dust unless you took it out of the case. That's definitely where I would start. A lot of people with that card have done cooler swaps to bigger heatsinks.
*Edit again* - Here is a Mac Users group link to a site which shows pictures of where you will find the dust build up on your video card.
06/30/2008 (10:36 am)
Charles, I didn't mean to imply that TGB specifically would blow your computer up,were it not in a properly ventilated area. :) Any program that works your computer could do that. Your computer should be able to run at 100% for as long as it takes to do whatever you need it to do. In the PC world, we just throw more fans in and keep going. For a MAC, the engineers have thought of all that and put in place very specific cooling mechanisms and maximized air flow.
If your graphics card is overheating, I can think of only 3 hardware related things that could cause this :
1. A problem with the fan on the card. Clogged with dust, failing outright, - either way, not doing its job properly
2. Ambient temperature around the computer is really hot, causing the whole cooling mechanism of the machine itself to not be bringing the internal temperature of the machine down to acceptable levels.
3. A bad video card itself.
Seriously, you bought a badass machine, you should be able to sit there, with your computer pegged at 100% indefinitely and your video card doing anything you can imagine as long as you are following common sense and not putting it in an oven or anything :). If not, there is a problem with the cooling. I would check for dust inside the fan of the card, and inside the case as well.
I know it's not a huge help, but that's all I can think of right now.
*Edit* - Found lots of links from people who have had overheating X1900 XT's in their Mac Pro's. It looks like the card uses the really thin-fin type of technology for the heatsink as well - in which case you wouldn't see a lot of dust unless you took it out of the case. That's definitely where I would start. A lot of people with that card have done cooler swaps to bigger heatsinks.
*Edit again* - Here is a Mac Users group link to a site which shows pictures of where you will find the dust build up on your video card.
#7
This is a link to a similar case involving graphical distortions when temperatures go up. While not directly the same as yours, I must stress that I experienced both the "screen going black until a hard reboot" along with the "occasional horizontal line across the screen" with the revision 1. Both problems were gone with the replacement.
www.macworld.com/article/61424/2007/12/horizontallines.html
06/30/2008 (4:03 pm)
Kenneth's #3 point is spot on. There is an issue with with the ATI Radeon x1900 that causes it to shut down at fairly mild temperatures (I mean mild room temperatures). I took it to the Apple store, and when I described the problem the Apple tech just kinda nodded knowingly. They replaced the video card with the revision 2 and all is well now.This is a link to a similar case involving graphical distortions when temperatures go up. While not directly the same as yours, I must stress that I experienced both the "screen going black until a hard reboot" along with the "occasional horizontal line across the screen" with the revision 1. Both problems were gone with the replacement.
www.macworld.com/article/61424/2007/12/horizontallines.html
#8
I feel like a schmuck for pointing my finger @ TGB and not expanding my research. You guys really came thru though, and for that I thank you very, very much.
I air dust the inside of my machine pretty regularly (once a month) as I have cats so there is a lot of cleaning going on. When I popped the case, it was not to bad. But thanks to Ken's link to the pics, I saw where the buildup was occurring and it was indeed a little dusty there. Hopefully that solved it. Lucky for me I have a ton of apple gift cards and cash I have been saving to purchase CS3, so when I visit the Apple Store tomorrow I am going to mention the issue about rev. 1. Hopefully they will swap it.
Again, sorry about blaming TGB, I could only reproduce the issue running it, so I assumed it was to fault. Bad assumption, and I have learned a little lesson here. Thanks a ton Ken, Chris and Dave, u r the best!
Chuck
*Edit - Wow. I really feel dumb now ( into "mouth"). As a result of the cleaning the heat sink pretty thoroughly on the card, I do not hear the fans AT ALL when running TGB. My heart now beats regularly again, thanks you guys!
07/01/2008 (7:31 am)
Wow Guys.I feel like a schmuck for pointing my finger @ TGB and not expanding my research. You guys really came thru though, and for that I thank you very, very much.
I air dust the inside of my machine pretty regularly (once a month) as I have cats so there is a lot of cleaning going on. When I popped the case, it was not to bad. But thanks to Ken's link to the pics, I saw where the buildup was occurring and it was indeed a little dusty there. Hopefully that solved it. Lucky for me I have a ton of apple gift cards and cash I have been saving to purchase CS3, so when I visit the Apple Store tomorrow I am going to mention the issue about rev. 1. Hopefully they will swap it.
Again, sorry about blaming TGB, I could only reproduce the issue running it, so I assumed it was to fault. Bad assumption, and I have learned a little lesson here. Thanks a ton Ken, Chris and Dave, u r the best!
Chuck
*Edit - Wow. I really feel dumb now (
#9
07/01/2008 (10:28 am)
Hah, no need to feel dumb man. :) Glad to hear it's running better now. I'd still ask about that rev 2. card just to be safe though.
#10
I can not find the Vendor and Device ID in the console.log file inside my tgb application directory or my actual game directory.
Where is the console.log file with the info you requested. The only vendor info I can find is:
Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.
Renderer: ATI Radeon X1900 OpenGL Engine
Version: 2.0 ATI-1.4.56
Let me know where I can find it and I will try to help out.
Thanks,
Chuck
07/02/2008 (6:17 am)
Dear amaranthia,I can not find the Vendor and Device ID in the console.log file inside my tgb application directory or my actual game directory.
Where is the console.log file with the info you requested. The only vendor info I can find is:
Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.
Renderer: ATI Radeon X1900 OpenGL Engine
Version: 2.0 ATI-1.4.56
Let me know where I can find it and I will try to help out.
Thanks,
Chuck
#11
TGB uses openGL as wrapper for it's interface, even when you've set to use DirectX for your game display, so if your drivers are part of the bad batch that could be related.
I don't know what's up with drivers in the Mac world though for these cards, but the new beta 8.8 drivers for XP & Vista just fixed all the OGL problems I was having, you might want to look into it..
08/22/2008 (1:13 pm)
Hey Charles, I don't know if it's related, but I just went through major probs wtih TGB and ATI cards, and it turned out that ATI has pretty much nerfed their OpenGL support for most of their series 8.xx drivers. They had a lot of complaints in their forums about all sorts of openGL related issues, including fans kicking in crazy on games running in OGL mode.TGB uses openGL as wrapper for it's interface, even when you've set to use DirectX for your game display, so if your drivers are part of the bad batch that could be related.
I don't know what's up with drivers in the Mac world though for these cards, but the new beta 8.8 drivers for XP & Vista just fixed all the OGL problems I was having, you might want to look into it..
#12
I cleaned it well and it behaved for a brief time, then went back to random shut downs. Cleaning it is only a temporary fix!!
I recently "upgraded" to the Mac's stock 256MB Nvidia card (at $150 ouch!) and it's been awesome. No GPU fan means my Mac is now super quiet, I haven't had a single issue with glitches or shutdowns AND, best of all I haven't noticed a single performance drop. I'm not running a lot of intensive 3D games, but the graphics heavy apps I have used - Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio, Motion, TGB, Unity 3D, Cheetah 3D, etc - seem to work just fine with the 256MB Nvidia card. You might want to consider the "upgrade" if the problems return (they probably will).
09/09/2008 (1:06 pm)
That graphics card is terrible. The 512MB ATI 1900 in my Mac Pro started crapping out after about a year (bought new in Nov 06). First it drew green horizontal lines all over the place, then it started doing random shutdowns. I cleaned it well and it behaved for a brief time, then went back to random shut downs. Cleaning it is only a temporary fix!!
I recently "upgraded" to the Mac's stock 256MB Nvidia card (at $150 ouch!) and it's been awesome. No GPU fan means my Mac is now super quiet, I haven't had a single issue with glitches or shutdowns AND, best of all I haven't noticed a single performance drop. I'm not running a lot of intensive 3D games, but the graphics heavy apps I have used - Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio, Motion, TGB, Unity 3D, Cheetah 3D, etc - seem to work just fine with the 256MB Nvidia card. You might want to consider the "upgrade" if the problems return (they probably will).
Employee David Montgomery-Blake
David MontgomeryBlake