A bit of your experience?
by David · in General Discussion · 05/22/2008 (11:43 am) · 14 replies
Hi all,
this is my first post in this forum, so please excuse me if this is the wrong thread or I do not respect some rules I dont know.
Im an experienced programmer, and now I would like to make a small game just to see what my creativity can bring on the table.
Well, I have been playing around with some engines (some serious, some not) until now, and Im still quite unsure whats the best choice.
I list here the engines I tried so far:
Engine My opinion
Blitz3d Pretty easy but really really old gfx layer. Cannot consider it a game engine. Theres another engine made by the developers called
BlitzMAx, but it doesnt have builtin 3d, so this isnt an option neither.
www.blitzbasic.com/
DarkBasic Pro Seems a nice engine with simple syntax, but it isnt object oriented and the performance seems bit poor to me. I saw there are many
games/tech demos made in it, but nothing really stunning.
www.thegamecreators.com
C4 Engine I couldnt get into it really far, dont really get the concept. Dont know if its because of the art in the demo, but the rendering seems
a bit crappy to me.
www.terathon.com/c4engine/index.php
NeoAxis This is the engine that impressed me most until now for its simplicity. Rendering is done through Ogre, and programming is in C# (and seems easy)
Have not seen any projects done with it, but the feature list seems quite promising.
www.neoaxisgroup.com
Torque Yeh..I dont have a real opinion about torque..it seems to have everything you need to make a game, but many people complain about its structures.
Would really like to hear opinions from people that have realized concrete projects with it.
Ok, im not gonna post a link to this one ^^
Unity3D Well, this seems an amazing engine, but since the toolkit is MAC only, it isnt an option for me. Web Apps run slowly on my (windows) PC.
Anyway, if someday they will implement a windows editor, I would really consider this engine.
www.unity3d.com
I know all these engines are quite different and maybe not that much comparable, but I would like to hear for eg. what engine you used before and
why you switched to this one.
So, what I would like is that people that have experience with some or all of these engines post here their opinion about them, their pros and cons,
and maybe a direct comparison with torque, and why I shouldnt take the other engine.
It would really help me in my choosing process.
Feel free to move or delete this post if I broke some forum rules with it.
Many thanks in advance,
Copperfield
this is my first post in this forum, so please excuse me if this is the wrong thread or I do not respect some rules I dont know.
Im an experienced programmer, and now I would like to make a small game just to see what my creativity can bring on the table.
Well, I have been playing around with some engines (some serious, some not) until now, and Im still quite unsure whats the best choice.
I list here the engines I tried so far:
Engine My opinion
Blitz3d Pretty easy but really really old gfx layer. Cannot consider it a game engine. Theres another engine made by the developers called
BlitzMAx, but it doesnt have builtin 3d, so this isnt an option neither.
www.blitzbasic.com/
DarkBasic Pro Seems a nice engine with simple syntax, but it isnt object oriented and the performance seems bit poor to me. I saw there are many
games/tech demos made in it, but nothing really stunning.
www.thegamecreators.com
C4 Engine I couldnt get into it really far, dont really get the concept. Dont know if its because of the art in the demo, but the rendering seems
a bit crappy to me.
www.terathon.com/c4engine/index.php
NeoAxis This is the engine that impressed me most until now for its simplicity. Rendering is done through Ogre, and programming is in C# (and seems easy)
Have not seen any projects done with it, but the feature list seems quite promising.
www.neoaxisgroup.com
Torque Yeh..I dont have a real opinion about torque..it seems to have everything you need to make a game, but many people complain about its structures.
Would really like to hear opinions from people that have realized concrete projects with it.
Ok, im not gonna post a link to this one ^^
Unity3D Well, this seems an amazing engine, but since the toolkit is MAC only, it isnt an option for me. Web Apps run slowly on my (windows) PC.
Anyway, if someday they will implement a windows editor, I would really consider this engine.
www.unity3d.com
I know all these engines are quite different and maybe not that much comparable, but I would like to hear for eg. what engine you used before and
why you switched to this one.
So, what I would like is that people that have experience with some or all of these engines post here their opinion about them, their pros and cons,
and maybe a direct comparison with torque, and why I shouldnt take the other engine.
It would really help me in my choosing process.
Feel free to move or delete this post if I broke some forum rules with it.
Many thanks in advance,
Copperfield
#2
but I would like to hear about your experience with the engine, and not about the price.
05/22/2008 (12:45 pm)
Thanks for the reply Silva,but I would like to hear about your experience with the engine, and not about the price.
#3
It's not really an offense to GG, but a general note against the use of BSP levels in game development.
@David
I've answered so many of these topics in the past that I'll have to find time to answer it in full since I've used all of the engines you note and more. I'm not really interested in convincing you to use Torque over engine X. I'd rather you use the engine that fits your dev style, assists in getting your game done, and is the best engine for the project. I like to play indie games that are finished, and engine selection, while important, is not the only thing to consider when hitting that hump.
EDIT: Except NeoAxis. I haven't used it.
05/22/2008 (1:02 pm)
I'd recommend making that note to Epic and Valve and id as well. BSP levels still definitely have their place regardless of how artist unfriendly UnrealEd, Hammer, and Radiant are because they do not allow the fine-grained control that many artists desire.It's not really an offense to GG, but a general note against the use of BSP levels in game development.
@David
I've answered so many of these topics in the past that I'll have to find time to answer it in full since I've used all of the engines you note and more. I'm not really interested in convincing you to use Torque over engine X. I'd rather you use the engine that fits your dev style, assists in getting your game done, and is the best engine for the project. I like to play indie games that are finished, and engine selection, while important, is not the only thing to consider when hitting that hump.
EDIT: Except NeoAxis. I haven't used it.
#4
what is .dts and .dif? Is it a proprietary format of Torque?
05/22/2008 (1:02 pm)
Thanks again Silva,what is .dts and .dif? Is it a proprietary format of Torque?
#5
DTS are your typical model/shape format, including animations. Can be exported from Max, for instance.
They are lit ingame with dynamic lights, and up until recently only supported box-collision. Latest incarnation of TGEA now supports polysoup.
DIF are BSP-like portalized structures which can not be animated. Exports from anything that supports the older Valve map format. These are lit using lightmaps ingame, but can also receive dynamic lights. The latter is lacking and cannot be limited as well as static lights, however.
05/22/2008 (1:10 pm)
Yeah David,DTS are your typical model/shape format, including animations. Can be exported from Max, for instance.
They are lit ingame with dynamic lights, and up until recently only supported box-collision. Latest incarnation of TGEA now supports polysoup.
DIF are BSP-like portalized structures which can not be animated. Exports from anything that supports the older Valve map format. These are lit using lightmaps ingame, but can also receive dynamic lights. The latter is lacking and cannot be limited as well as static lights, however.
#6
.dif = BSP models made in Worldcraft, Constructor, Quark - for buildings that you go into and many other uses. ftp.sgi.com/other/bspfaq/faq/bspfaq.html#6.txt
I agree with David Blake in that you need to find something that fits your needs. What fits someones else's needs aren't going to fit yours unless your project is exactly like there's, you use the same programs, and have the same skill level they have.
05/22/2008 (1:11 pm)
.dts = models made in programs like 3dsMax, Lightwave, Maya, Blender, Milkshape etc.. Basically detail objects like tables, chairs, lights, characters, weapons, buildings you don't enter, vehicles, scenery objects, etc.. more complex objects..dif = BSP models made in Worldcraft, Constructor, Quark - for buildings that you go into and many other uses. ftp.sgi.com/other/bspfaq/faq/bspfaq.html#6.txt
I agree with David Blake in that you need to find something that fits your needs. What fits someones else's needs aren't going to fit yours unless your project is exactly like there's, you use the same programs, and have the same skill level they have.
#7
@David Blake
I know that I need to find an engine that fits my needs at best, but in order to do that, I need information about the engines. Since I dont have the time to try every engine fully out, I would like to rely on your experience.
I dont want to be convinced, but rather to hear from you all what you think about each engine, what difficulties you encountered and which features made your life easier.
This way I can see the engines from many points of view, not only mine.
Thanks again,
David
05/22/2008 (1:40 pm)
Thank you all guys for you responses.@David Blake
I know that I need to find an engine that fits my needs at best, but in order to do that, I need information about the engines. Since I dont have the time to try every engine fully out, I would like to rely on your experience.
I dont want to be convinced, but rather to hear from you all what you think about each engine, what difficulties you encountered and which features made your life easier.
This way I can see the engines from many points of view, not only mine.
Thanks again,
David
#8
I'm not saying that they don't have a nicer pipeline than TGEA. But if you want to remove BSP maps from the equation or build your own exporter, as was the case for Gearbox when they did the Halo port to PC (though they made good use of the much more restrictive export process for the XBox version of Halo due to the console particulars) then you can definitely do some great work. Even using Maxscript, you can do it. Look at the max2ctor maxscript. Modeling your stuff correctly, you can do some great bsp-safe-ish work with it. The Halo exporter wasn't as fun for GB to make, however, even with the original exporter's source. It was nice for the few mod teams that had access to Max, though...which is one of the key reasons that the Halo mod community was so small in comparison to other games and non-Max support was one of the biggest requests back in the day on the GB forums. Then they got bigger and moved on, but they're still a Max house. Nothing wrong with that as long as you learn to use the tools or have a dedicated tool team making them work for you according to your workflow requirements.
@David
I know. I just don't have the time to do an in-depth review of game engine tech right now.
05/22/2008 (2:03 pm)
@NeillI'm not saying that they don't have a nicer pipeline than TGEA. But if you want to remove BSP maps from the equation or build your own exporter, as was the case for Gearbox when they did the Halo port to PC (though they made good use of the much more restrictive export process for the XBox version of Halo due to the console particulars) then you can definitely do some great work. Even using Maxscript, you can do it. Look at the max2ctor maxscript. Modeling your stuff correctly, you can do some great bsp-safe-ish work with it. The Halo exporter wasn't as fun for GB to make, however, even with the original exporter's source. It was nice for the few mod teams that had access to Max, though...which is one of the key reasons that the Halo mod community was so small in comparison to other games and non-Max support was one of the biggest requests back in the day on the GB forums. Then they got bigger and moved on, but they're still a Max house. Nothing wrong with that as long as you learn to use the tools or have a dedicated tool team making them work for you according to your workflow requirements.
@David
I know. I just don't have the time to do an in-depth review of game engine tech right now.
#9
05/22/2008 (7:32 pm)
Torque is the only engine I've used since I started about 1.5 years ago. About 6 months ago I had doubts about using torque and spent a few days researching other systems (I'm not an expert on the subject). One factor that I found again and again is that the GG community is second to none. I visited a lot of game engine sites and none of them came close to the activity in their forums as GG has. After the research there was no doubt in my mind Torque was the best option to go with.
#10
I'll try to answer some basic comparisons of the engines listed (again, sans NeoAxis since I haven't used it, though I've heard good things). But I also need something to go on so I'm not repeating bullet lists that you could compare in two minutes of searching and may still have nothing to do with the games you want to make.
05/22/2008 (7:40 pm)
What type of game are you making? What are its extents and goals? What are the "must-haves" and "would likes"? How experienced of a C++ coder are you? Are you experienced with scripting languages and other game engine technology (say, Half-Life 2 or Unreal modding)?I'll try to answer some basic comparisons of the engines listed (again, sans NeoAxis since I haven't used it, though I've heard good things). But I also need something to go on so I'm not repeating bullet lists that you could compare in two minutes of searching and may still have nothing to do with the games you want to make.
#11
Thank you very much for your time, I really appreciate it.
What I want to realize is a small FPS adventure, something similar to Deus Ex but much much smaller.
There are going to be many NPCs which are going to talk and react differently on your answers.
I want to tell a story basically, with some dynamic event branching.
Some must have would be:
- Basic AI where I could start from (this is the absolutely must because I have no experience in AI)
- Performant and flexible (in terms that parameters can easily be changed at runtime) physics system.
- Up-to-date renderer, I would like to use normal and specular maps.
- Easy way to add game logic and/or new game entities
- Flexible (blendings) skeletal animation system
- Powerful, yet easy to use GUI system
- A well thought toolset
Some would like would be:
- Powerful particle system
- Builtin path finding
- In game GUI (like Doom) would be really nice
- Cut scenes
- NPC dialogue engine
I learned programming in C and later C++ (almost 2 years). Later I switched to C# because of my work, and im staying with it until now because I really enjoy the .Net framework (things can be done so much faster in .Net).
I have no scripting language experience, at least no game scripting. I used to write some perl and python scripts when I tried out some linux distros, but I think there arent much engines which use those languages.
I digged deeply into the RTCW:Enemy territory and Quake3 source code as it became public, but never managed to do something useful with it, mostly because I found it quite difficult to program.
05/23/2008 (2:49 am)
@David BlakeThank you very much for your time, I really appreciate it.
What I want to realize is a small FPS adventure, something similar to Deus Ex but much much smaller.
There are going to be many NPCs which are going to talk and react differently on your answers.
I want to tell a story basically, with some dynamic event branching.
Some must have would be:
- Basic AI where I could start from (this is the absolutely must because I have no experience in AI)
- Performant and flexible (in terms that parameters can easily be changed at runtime) physics system.
- Up-to-date renderer, I would like to use normal and specular maps.
- Easy way to add game logic and/or new game entities
- Flexible (blendings) skeletal animation system
- Powerful, yet easy to use GUI system
- A well thought toolset
Some would like would be:
- Powerful particle system
- Builtin path finding
- In game GUI (like Doom) would be really nice
- Cut scenes
- NPC dialogue engine
I learned programming in C and later C++ (almost 2 years). Later I switched to C# because of my work, and im staying with it until now because I really enjoy the .Net framework (things can be done so much faster in .Net).
I have no scripting language experience, at least no game scripting. I used to write some perl and python scripts when I tried out some linux distros, but I think there arent much engines which use those languages.
I digged deeply into the RTCW:Enemy territory and Quake3 source code as it became public, but never managed to do something useful with it, mostly because I found it quite difficult to program.
#12
Heres some particularly time consuming ai tasks you will need to do: pathfinding, obstacle avoidance, action/behavior selection architecture, scripted story events, squad behaviors (if necessary), dialog system.
I have been working on ai for a project using torque for ~3 months full time. And it is much more primitive than any "commercial" fps ai. Nevertheless, I have had a fun time working on this and have enjoyed the experience -- so thats my 3 cents!
05/23/2008 (7:52 am)
Pretty much anything AI related for your project you will have to implement yourself. The resources for AI middleware are very limited (or expensive), and the other engines you mentioned also (to my knowledge) do not supply fps ai out-of-box.Heres some particularly time consuming ai tasks you will need to do: pathfinding, obstacle avoidance, action/behavior selection architecture, scripted story events, squad behaviors (if necessary), dialog system.
I have been working on ai for a project using torque for ~3 months full time. And it is much more primitive than any "commercial" fps ai. Nevertheless, I have had a fun time working on this and have enjoyed the experience -- so thats my 3 cents!
#13
Thank you very much.
05/23/2008 (10:05 am)
Well, this is actually worth more than 3 cents, James :)Thank you very much.
#14
I finally managed to dig deeper into NeoAxis, and until now I must say: WOW.
Really well thought SDK, everything you need is there, very nice toolset and..it just works. Ive seen no bugs until now.
So, thank you all for your replies, I think Ill stick with this engine.
05/25/2008 (4:23 am)
Hi all,I finally managed to dig deeper into NeoAxis, and until now I must say: WOW.
Really well thought SDK, everything you need is there, very nice toolset and..it just works. Ive seen no bugs until now.
So, thank you all for your replies, I think Ill stick with this engine.
David
Basically, it was structured like:
Engine____________________My opinion
Blitz.. ____________________Bla bla bla
Sorry for the inconvenience and best regards,
Copperfield