Infinite Space / Gradual-'Seamless' Zoning
by Steve · in Artist Corner · 04/30/2008 (11:49 pm) · 12 replies
I have rather unique questions about zones. From what I can tell, based on the Demo World, the terrain for a mission is roughly square, and always wraps (both north-south, and east-west).
My questions:
1 Can I set the map to not wrap when it reaches the north/southern edge? You know, I'm not sure what it would do otherwise. Maybe I'll just put in a snowstorm that keeps players away from this edge. In retrospect, here's an alternate question; How tall can a map be? What are the upper and lower bounds of the environment?
2 Can I somehow scroll terrain into the mission area from a larger heightmap, or a set of heightmaps?
3 Can torque generate terrain on-the-fly?
4 Can one torque server hold multiple maps in memory at the same time if two players are in different parts of the world?
5a If the answer to questions 2, 3, or 4 are "No", How do other torque programmers work around these issues?
5b Do you just run multiple server apps for the different maps?
5c When I try to run the demo multiple times, it tells me "Copy of Torque is already running". How difficult is it to work around that?
5d Do I need a new server for each zone?
Thanks,
-Steve
My questions:
1 Can I set the map to not wrap when it reaches the north/southern edge? You know, I'm not sure what it would do otherwise. Maybe I'll just put in a snowstorm that keeps players away from this edge. In retrospect, here's an alternate question; How tall can a map be? What are the upper and lower bounds of the environment?
2 Can I somehow scroll terrain into the mission area from a larger heightmap, or a set of heightmaps?
3 Can torque generate terrain on-the-fly?
4 Can one torque server hold multiple maps in memory at the same time if two players are in different parts of the world?
5a If the answer to questions 2, 3, or 4 are "No", How do other torque programmers work around these issues?
5b Do you just run multiple server apps for the different maps?
5c When I try to run the demo multiple times, it tells me "Copy of Torque is already running". How difficult is it to work around that?
5d Do I need a new server for each zone?
Thanks,
-Steve
About the author
#2
I have a similar problem/question: Do I have to have TGEA to make a huge MMO map? I mean, I would love for it to be like that, just because I had bought TGE recently and wondered if I could do it with that. Mainly or the the fact that I am creating a MMO (probably also an RPG). Any work arounds? any help besides just going and buying TGEA with Atlas?
05/18/2008 (8:27 am)
So,I have a similar problem/question: Do I have to have TGEA to make a huge MMO map? I mean, I would love for it to be like that, just because I had bought TGE recently and wondered if I could do it with that. Mainly or the the fact that I am creating a MMO (probably also an RPG). Any work arounds? any help besides just going and buying TGEA with Atlas?
#3
Sigh... how come the first thought of everybody picking up the engine is "let's do a MMOxyz"??
[/rant]
As for doing MMO stuff, I'd more than recommend taking a look at MMOKit.
Doing large worlds with TGE probably would require doing significant engine coding. However, even with TGEA that's not an out-of-the-box thing. To emphasize, neither MegaTerrains nor Atlas give you huge worlds for free. There is much more than rendering a big terrain to doing a large simulated world.
Also, while Atlas can churn out some pretty big chunks of geometry, its resource footprint is significant (not so much so than with MegaTerrains, but still considerable). Atlas will load the finest LOD in entirety, so you basically have all of your terrain in memory at once.
Atlas could be used as the basis for some pretty smart zoning solution, but not without some decent engine modifications.
05/18/2008 (8:46 am)
[rant]Sigh... how come the first thought of everybody picking up the engine is "let's do a MMOxyz"??
[/rant]
As for doing MMO stuff, I'd more than recommend taking a look at MMOKit.
Doing large worlds with TGE probably would require doing significant engine coding. However, even with TGEA that's not an out-of-the-box thing. To emphasize, neither MegaTerrains nor Atlas give you huge worlds for free. There is much more than rendering a big terrain to doing a large simulated world.
Also, while Atlas can churn out some pretty big chunks of geometry, its resource footprint is significant (not so much so than with MegaTerrains, but still considerable). Atlas will load the finest LOD in entirety, so you basically have all of your terrain in memory at once.
Atlas could be used as the basis for some pretty smart zoning solution, but not without some decent engine modifications.
#4
Most people want MMOxyz because it's the latest craze Thanks to the many successful MMO's that are very well commercialized.
We'd see the same thing with First Person Shooters if there was a Giant of one produced and marketed.
Me thinks that GG might consider adding a starter MMO in the engine to accomodate and let the Licensees come to GG in droves. Not many people like using Python in MMOkit.. it makes for yet another language hurdle.
Imagine the sales GG would have with such a MMO starter that users can expand on.
Otherwise it is left to the programmer to add MMO content themselves.. and people really come to Torque for it's excellence while knowing they will make an MMO with it, but by using the MMOkit instead.
Vicious circle.
05/18/2008 (9:49 am)
Side Note:Most people want MMOxyz because it's the latest craze Thanks to the many successful MMO's that are very well commercialized.
We'd see the same thing with First Person Shooters if there was a Giant of one produced and marketed.
Me thinks that GG might consider adding a starter MMO in the engine to accomodate and let the Licensees come to GG in droves. Not many people like using Python in MMOkit.. it makes for yet another language hurdle.
Imagine the sales GG would have with such a MMO starter that users can expand on.
Otherwise it is left to the programmer to add MMO content themselves.. and people really come to Torque for it's excellence while knowing they will make an MMO with it, but by using the MMOkit instead.
Vicious circle.
#5
That would be awesome if GG made a starter MMO for us. That would be something I would definitely buy. I have to agree with you on the sales increase if such a thing was made.
05/18/2008 (10:07 am)
@ScottThat would be awesome if GG made a starter MMO for us. That would be something I would definitely buy. I have to agree with you on the sales increase if such a thing was made.
#6
05/18/2008 (1:07 pm)
I think if they just added an RPG startkit that would work. You could turn that RPG startkit into an MMO yourself.
#7
05/18/2008 (2:49 pm)
That would be very useful. Where did you here about that?
#8
basically I have to modify the engine with some tweaks? I could, though, try to see if i can expand the Mission area a little, than when they exit that area, it loads a new place? Is this possible to have it seamless? Because I really don't want to have to many loading screens.
05/18/2008 (5:21 pm)
So,basically I have to modify the engine with some tweaks? I could, though, try to see if i can expand the Mission area a little, than when they exit that area, it loads a new place? Is this possible to have it seamless? Because I really don't want to have to many loading screens.
#9
I was responding as a 'side note' to explain one possibility why so many people want RPG or MMO.
There are already plenty of resources in the forums for people to assemble a RPG or any sort of MMO they like.
Prairie Games went a step further and wrapped TGE with Python and then used Python to add what was not in the engine C++ code. In this, PG has done a fine job of it. I recommend trying MMOkit if you seek an RPG or MMO.
Many people.. perhaps thousands.. seek an affordable engine that suits their programming abilities and capable of MMO's.. many of those people land here at GG for good reason, but making any RPG or MMO is much more involved then making a FPS game.
And since GG is more focused on providing the community with a strong and stable engine that is also multi-platform.. the samples offered in the engine are FPS because they are great starters to learn the engine.
Unless you can program in C++ to modify your engine code, the community is not likely to see a 'RPG starter out of the box'.
Your choices are your own engine modifications, MMOKit, or "RPG Starter" which can be googled on the site for a download.
TGE is a very capable engine and is multi-platform ( Linux Mac Windows ).
TGEA is still under development in regards to Linux and Mac.
Sorry, didn't mean to hi-jack the thread. Just wanted to explain all the hype over RPG's and MMO's and why people are screaming for answers.
05/18/2008 (5:27 pm)
Quote: [rant]
Sigh... how come the first thought of everybody picking up the engine is "let's do a MMOxyz"??
[/rant]
I was responding as a 'side note' to explain one possibility why so many people want RPG or MMO.
There are already plenty of resources in the forums for people to assemble a RPG or any sort of MMO they like.
Prairie Games went a step further and wrapped TGE with Python and then used Python to add what was not in the engine C++ code. In this, PG has done a fine job of it. I recommend trying MMOkit if you seek an RPG or MMO.
Many people.. perhaps thousands.. seek an affordable engine that suits their programming abilities and capable of MMO's.. many of those people land here at GG for good reason, but making any RPG or MMO is much more involved then making a FPS game.
And since GG is more focused on providing the community with a strong and stable engine that is also multi-platform.. the samples offered in the engine are FPS because they are great starters to learn the engine.
Unless you can program in C++ to modify your engine code, the community is not likely to see a 'RPG starter out of the box'.
Your choices are your own engine modifications, MMOKit, or "RPG Starter" which can be googled on the site for a download.
TGE is a very capable engine and is multi-platform ( Linux Mac Windows ).
TGEA is still under development in regards to Linux and Mac.
Sorry, didn't mean to hi-jack the thread. Just wanted to explain all the hype over RPG's and MMO's and why people are screaming for answers.
#10
You can resize the default terrain area larger or smaller. The default size of the terrain is still pretty large and a player running from end to end would get pretty tired of running all that distance. It really is big.
If not large enough you can resize the default and just add zoning points to extend it further.
If done right, your players won't mind it at all. Most people that play computer games are accustomed to area / zone limits anyways.
05/19/2008 (1:19 pm)
@JamesYou can resize the default terrain area larger or smaller. The default size of the terrain is still pretty large and a player running from end to end would get pretty tired of running all that distance. It really is big.
If not large enough you can resize the default and just add zoning points to extend it further.
If done right, your players won't mind it at all. Most people that play computer games are accustomed to area / zone limits anyways.
#11
Ok, well thank you for the response, someone atleast answered my question (topic got off-topic a little). Well, would it, need be, involve coding / engine changes? Or is there an option for this?
05/19/2008 (2:35 pm)
@ScottOk, well thank you for the response, someone atleast answered my question (topic got off-topic a little). Well, would it, need be, involve coding / engine changes? Or is there an option for this?
#12
I think you need this:
www.garagegames.com/docs/tge/general/ch04s06.php
Hope it helps clarify.
05/19/2008 (6:48 pm)
@JamesI think you need this:
www.garagegames.com/docs/tge/general/ch04s06.php
Hope it helps clarify.
Torque 3D Owner mb
TGE:
Legacy terrain has a feature that mirrors the terrain. You can turn this off or on in the Mission Area Editor. Hit F11 then F5. Not sure if there's an actual limit on how tall a map can be or the upper/lower bounds. I did read a while back that if you go too far it creates some jitters or anomalies with your characters rotation or something like that. It was a long distance away, and mainly affected people when they were making space sims.
TGEA:
You can use MegaTerrains or Atlas terrains can be very large and almost no limit on map size.
I'm not sure I completely understand this question but, no not out of the box. If you were to recode the engine I suppose it's possible but not something you would want to do.
Thats basically what Atlas terrain does in TGEA. TGE does not.
One server would have only one mission loaded at a time.
TGE:
Using zones. Placing triggers in the mission that load a new area or go to another server.
TGEA:
Using Atlas or MegaTerrains. Atlas terrain, like I said, can be very massive and automagically loads sections of the terrain on the fly.
You can.
If I remember this correctly you would need to change the port. It can't remember but it's not too difficult, although I would reccomend using another computer to test your work.
If your using TGE and this is multiplayer then yes you would want to have a new server for each zone. You can run multiple servers on one machine. Of course you have to consider the bandwidth. If you have TGEA you can just use Atlas and make a huge terrain.