$400 contract waiting for the right modeler

#1 $400 and you cant get a non hotmail email?

#2 lol, what's that got to do with it? The wise businessman will use the cheapest things he can so long as the quality doesnt take a hit. Besides..we're talkin email addys here, not development software or something. And as far as I can tell, he's frontin the most money I've seen on here. Most people can't afford any up front costs. I think it's a good idea. (Especially since they still have % rights). Too bad I'm not a modeller...and I have my own team..but I think its a good offer, if you got nothing else goin on.

#3 Damn Robert,

I've seen only a few of your post and they are all pure crap. Not really contributing. Hell, I could be wrong, I am "new"...

Sorry to the original poster.

Lamont

#4 How much did you pay Robert to your dead link webpage?

#5 Not much lamont, it was a typo.

#6 would anyone else like to take a shot at me?

#7 We can do without that, Robert. Posting an e-mail address on a public web page is usually just asking to be picked up by a spam-bot, by using a disposable (ie Hotmail) e-mail account you can use it for it's purpose and then ignore it.

This is a place to share information and work on game development, if you aren't going to aid in any of the purposes of GarageGames find another place.

#8 Pat,
Thank you for telling me to go elsewhere, when my observation is justified and true.

1. Unless a spambot is a member here, I doubt that it can pick up on member emails. Last I looked you had to log in here.

2. We have seen before that people have posted these wonderful job opportunities claiming to offer sums of money, and they usually turn out to be wishful thinking.

3. If you are going to be professional about your game and realistic, you are going to have to have a web page. For people to take you seriously, you are going to need more than a hotmail address.

I am frankly suprised an associate would come here and tell me to go elsewhere because I posted my opinion. I did not flame this person in anyway. I asked a simple question.

Jeremy responded at least without intending to start a flame war. The rest of you just decided to insult me.

I will state again in a more clear way... I think it is showing a lack of commitment to post a hotmail address when advertising for jobs.

Disagree with me if you wish, but dont tell me to go elsewhere because you don't like my opinion.

Lamont Gilkey,
Sorry you dont like my posts.

You do know, you dont HAVE to read my posts right? If you would like to discuss my posting habits and how to improve them privately, I would be more than willing to listen. My email address is longwlkr@maxgaming.net or I am in the IRC channel. I go by the handle Longwalker.

(I have to say, I had such an urge to post my hotmail address here LOL)

Also, keep in mind, the way someone takes another's post is often set by the frame of mind of the reader.

I have edited this post about 10 times now to make sure you all know I have no hostility in here (and a couple of typos). I am stating things the way I see them.

#9 ok kids, settle down... first off, what Robert said wasnt that bad, sure it was kinda pointless and irrelevant, but its not like he called our mothers whores or anything, no need to get all bent out of shape over his post, and to robert, I can udnerstand why your being so defensive, I wouldnt like to be told to leave this community that I'm so involved with either, but come on, everyone does have good points, hotmail really isnt that bad and its kinda dumb to say that he is an amature and isnt too dedicated to his project (if you didnt say that directly you implied it through your posts), I think (and I'm pretty sure everyone else does too) that 400 dollars shows more commitment and dedication than buying a crapy domain name and some webspace. Actualy when you think about it, the fallacy in your opinion roots down to "you cant judge a book by its cover" I use hotmail for my mailing service and tripod for my website... so what? I'm in college and I cant waist money on crap that I could get for free, I think a nice portfolio and dedication to your work show's more than someones willingness to blow money on websites.... so dont be so judgemental

ok, now onto the real point of my post, I would like to ask for more info on this project, this post was rather vague... it would be fine for the casual indie game, but when you go into large up front payments and non-disclosure contracts, well then you really gotta give everyone more info. How long is this project planned to take? How much modeling content would be needed? what kind of models? people? animals? plants? houses? sports equipment? see what I mean? there are still a ton of issues that this post simply does not cover about what woudl be involved in this job, and I think any serious artist would want to know this before signing contracts and committing themselves to a project that for all they know could take 4 years.... $400 sounds appealing, but it would be foolish if someone were to hastily sign up for this job just for $400 and not really be too interested in the project nor care to put forth the effort needed to do all the art by themselves... it would be a waist of time and resourses for both the artist and the employer.... unfortunately when you change the rules of your project from being a fun indie game that a bunch of people do for kicks and to make a few bucks to a serious bussiness deal designed solely for profit, with contracts and non disclosures, things get a bit more complicated and a LOT less fun, thats probably why no one is applying for this job, even though it has been in the help wanted adds at least twice (from what I've seen) and is taking up a forum slot..... also, you cant be too picky... keep in mind you are only offering $400, that sounds like a lot to indies who are used to doing this for free or for royalties (which pretty much means they are doing it for free ;) ), but its really not that much money, you arnt going to get profesionals from EA to quit their jobs to work on your game, so dont be too picky... just my two cents :)

#10

Quote:I am frankly suprised an associate would come here and tell me to go elsewhere because I posted my opinion.

Seems to me Phil was also posting his opinion, which he has every right to share. I happen to agree with him, focusing on trivial things for the sake of argument is counter-productive. But that's also my opinion. As the old saying goes: opinions are like assholes ... everyone's got 'em. ;)

If someone wants to take the job, then more power to them. Everything's a gamble. They'll find out if the lead is a good one or a bad one. It's no different than finding and applying for a convential job. Would you belittle a company for using a PO Box as opposed to their street address?

What you told Lamont can also apply to your reply. If you don't like his opinion, then you don't have to read it. :) It's a two way street here.

#11 Eric,
Point taken. The point I was trying to make is it gives the appearance of lack of commitment.

At the same time... because we are not face to face and the person is unwilling or unable to give further information, I have to ask why should someone take a chance on this project?

I understand the money aspect, BUT you can get a domain name for $17 for 2 years. People on here have also offered free hosting.

Getting a decent website that gives some information and showing people you are serious about your project doesnt have to cost a bunch of money.

Unfortunately, we have to go by appearances here because we have nothing else.

Lamont, I forgot to say earlier, thank you for pointing out the problem in my web link.

#12 @Robert

I understand your point about the e-mail addy, but:

1. I've found it to be increasing acceptable to use hotmail as a professional e-mail account, especially considering the cost savings. Look around and I think you'll agree. I don't think it was acceptable 3 years ago.

2. I haven't decided on a name for the game yet,(hoping a license with little league might help this , but anyways...) and spending money on a url I prob won't end up using seems wasteful to me.

On the website argument...

The game is currently somewhere between pre-production and production. It's been in pre-production for 8 months, during which I've been able to give the game a solid direction and an abundance of solid design logic including what is, in my mind, a revolutionary learning engine. I waited 6 months before deciding to recruit a programmer because I had big design issues to work out since the game is a little frontierish. After working with the programmer for a couple months mostly on conceptual stuff and finding a common vision for the game, I then though it was time to look for modelers. I think this is a logical indie production path to follow, and I think it's help set the standards high for the rest of the production.

Anyways, I don't think it's necessary to publish a website until the first playable build is complete, which I consider the middle of the production period after the recruitment effort. Why publish a website with a bunch of propaganda when you can just e-mail developers directly, put it in your plans(which more developers will read anyways), and in your job listings? If you've got a good design doc, you'll be able to convince developers to work with you, no matter which e-mail addy you are using. And if you don't have a well-thought out design, it doesn't matter how professional a website you build. Until you reach the middle of production, the only opinions you should care about are those of the people you want to work with you, and peer respect comes only from solid design logic. For the sake of using an easy cliche, don't judge a book...especially in indie circles.

In regards to the recruitment effort...

I've found that the part pay/ownership offer has created interest in the modeling position that I wasn't finding before. However, we haven't found anyone yet who seems to fit the full requirements for the offer, commercial skills and long-term commitment, mostly because the best modelers don't want to get tied in long term (a requirement for ownership). If you are interested in a lead position and want to know more, please inquire.

#13 A few more things...

@ Eric

I know that I haven't posted too much info on the game, but I agree that I should have posted more about the production cycle I forsee. If you want to know more about the game you need to contact me directly.

As for the (rough) production cycle:

I think the core of the game engine and state machine will take another 2-4 months, by my estimates, which would hopefully yield the first playable demo.

Balancing research will also begin around the end of this period. The balancing information will be extracted from the working with ball-players and watching the development of all age groups over an entire season. I have two consultants who will help me with the research that will help us realistically define the "learning curves" and timing variables. During the research we will be tweaking gameplay and adding features. Most of the design work is already worked out (though I am flexiable and invite criticism on my designs) and so the period spanning 4-8 months from now should just be focused implementation. Our goal is to have the game ready for submission to the IGF competition next year, roughly September.

I don't really have a solid grasp on how much modeling we will do before now and then, though I think we will do as much as we can, starting asap. I do have a list of things that I want done, but don't want to solidify the 3-D design until I know what kind of talent I'm working with, since it always makes more sense, in my mind, to design things you know your team can implement. I can tell you that we are going for a realistic look.

And I agree that $400 dollars is less than what a "commercial" quality artist deserves, but that's also $400 more than anyone else will get paid on the project before we start distribution. I know the game design is quality, and I have high confidence in the programmer, so I see the $400 offer as a strategic way to attract a modeler who simply has as high standards as me and Chris. BTW - commercial quality just means something that both Chris and I approve, meaning it's just our interpretation and not written in stone.

We do have a couple less established modelers who have expressed interest in working on the project in an evaluatory manner, meaning we will put their models in as long as we approve them - at which point we will negotiate ownership and/or compensation. We still want there to be someone who we know can set a high standard for the "look" and who can be supported by other modelers we find along the way to help out, and we are simply willing to pay for the high standard.

Also, my monetary ambitions are separate from my artistic ones. I think that's necessary in order to stay true to your art. Our high standards simply come out of our ambitions to make the greatest game we can, something that someone else will genuinely enjoy. The $400 dollar offer is simply something that I see as necessary for attracting a quality modeler and realizing my vision.

#14 Shayne, you are an apple. Robert, you are an orange. Me...I'm a banana. A really big, ripe, throbbing banana...wait..did I really type that? Ah..I don't want to delete it. The backspace button is all the way over there. What was I saying? Oh yeah. It's all good guys. We are a "community". We are all indies here. I've much love for all yall. We all do it for the love of the game, and that is what is important. Rob, it's cool man. I have some unpopular opinions too. I get flamed every now and then, but then I remember that I'm a big banana. (C: to all others, I think Shayne's post was just fine. He didn't go into details becuase a person isn't "signing a contract" by emailing him. They are asking for more information, getting the details. He prolly wanted to keep the forum thread short....looks like that plan failed eh Shayne? So in all my pointless banter, we may be different in that we are all apples, oranges, and bananas..but we are all fruits. |C: Erhm. Nevermind.

#15 Jeremy, so you are saying we are all fruits?

#16 it's an analogy yo. We have different opinions, but we are all still indies. So in the end, our goals are the same. I'm trying to lighten the mood. It was getting to hot in this thread...

#17 Shayne, thanks for explaining your game and your design process in more depth, it sounds like you are taking your project extremely seriously and profesionaly, yet still maintaining the beliefe that it is art and art should be creative and not be stiffled by seriousness.

I am interested in helping out on this game, it sounds like it could be a pretty fun project to work on, and a good experience :)