Garage Games & OpenGL

#61 I would take DX10 support (which is needed its been out for a year) over OpenGL any day

#62
Someone could start a fund sort of like the X-Prize and have everyone donate into it. The first one who creates a fully featured and stable OpenGL Port of TGEA gets it.

#63 I'd have to agree with your point on assumptions around GG, but it is easy to make assumptions when you only have so much information presented to you. I highly doubt a single person has a Lamborghini at GG, I just hope everyone at least can afford a Honda. The GG team has provided some serious access to indie developers that we are all very, very grateful for.

I think the point that has been reiterated many times (and I am going to further drill this into the ground) is that GG is taking what seems like a turn away from what is really the indie market.

What we want as indie developers: Cross-compatible engines and tools to appeal to markets that bigger publishers are ignoring, i.e. Macintosh, Linux, and non-cutting edge pc's. What we are now seeing is focus on an engine that looks pretty, but has steeper system requirements (shader support), and only works on Microsoft Windows (Vista, XP), with other ports for Microsoft's Xbox 360 and the Nintendo Wii.

It's hard for an Indie to compete in these markets, not to mention the engine has more focus on Shininess then on polishing its core mechanics(which is still a necessity for this engine), which seems to be, to me, what being an Indie is totally not about. Indies are much more likely to create innovative gameplay features with mediocre graphics, than the opposite. So why not help make the creation of those innovative features more intuitive and accessible?

The reason I purchased the engine back in the day was purely this: The Community. I'll type it again, Community... Without such an awesome community, I would not have learned hardly a thing about this great engine. Resources, Bug fixes, Tutorials, Enhancements, all user submitted. If you removed the community features from GG, you'd have a slightly buggy engine with little documentation and no user support.

So, maybe it's time to simply ask your fellow, loyal GG members what they would like to have, not tell them. My 2cents on the matter.

#64

Quote:the engine has more focus on Shininess then on polishing its core mechanics

That has to be the most ignorant thing I've read on the boards in a long time. Do you have TGEA? Have you been following the recent blogs and discussions in relation to TGEA 1.7/Juggernaut?

#65

Quote:
but has steeper system requirements (shader support),

TGEA now supports fixed function rendering, making it less dependent on system requirements than ever before.

Quote:
So, maybe it's time to simply ask your fellow, loyal GG members what they would like to have, not tell them. My 2cents on the matter.

I have a very serious question, that I do think deserves discussion (and I welcome honest, and well thought out opinions, but please don't just jump in without thinking).

Who do you think is the better set of our user community to poll regarding successful indie games--the relative newcomer to the game industry, or the experienced Indie developers that have published games, and are earning enough to live the indie dream full time?

Since IGC 2007 (October of last year), we've been discussing with the GarageGames Associates their concerns, issues, ideas, and plans for Torque, and in fact a very large majority of the work that has been involved with TGEA 1.7 come directly from that feedback. The list is huge, and I can't in any way cover it all, but here are just some of the things that the community (both Associates, and the community at large) have asked for:

--new sound layer: result--SFX

--real time terrain editing: result--not currently possible with Atlas, so we provided MegaTerrains

--lower hardware requirements when feasible: result--fixed function fallbacks

--more platform availability: result: TorqueWii, updated and expanded XB360 support, and many more systems abstracted (enhanced GFX, SFX, better platform layers) for future development

--more engine flexibility, "cleaner code": result--more than a year and a half of re-factoring through the internal Juggernaut codebase (Note: code refactoring is always a "work in progress". It's not complete.)

--more examples, more art, more starter kits: result--there are no less than 8 GameExamples in our internal repository, and a majority of them are (or will be in the near future) available to the public as part of the release: Forge Demo, T3D, Atlas, Stronghold, and while the starter.racing is no longer separate, the vehicle is now in the T3D GameExample. Additionally, TGEA 1.7 now provides six character models for you. (Torque Orc, Space Orc, Female Elf, BoomBot, Forge Guy, SpaceSuit Guy).

--better collision: result--built in polySoup collision

--better docs: have you looked at the TGEA 1.7 beta documentation? It has the best Getting Started documentation available for any of our engines, and a never before seen outside of (paid) Torque Boot Camps re-write of the Engine Overview.

Finally, back to the root question that this thread originally asked--I'll quote from Matt Fairfax's .plan from January, with some emphasis:

Quote:
Will this include OpenGL? Sadly, no, this update will not include OpenGL. All of the work we have done on OpenGL is still not ready for release.

And this update was...wait for it...free.

#66 What's fixed function rendering?

#67

Quote:
What's fixed function rendering?

The ability to work on video cards that don't support shaders.

#68 My reason for saying that requirements are steeper comes from the GG system requirements page, as states:

TGE:
Windows XP
Pentium 1 GHz
256 MB RAM
DirectX


TGEA:
Windows 2000/XP
Pentium III 1000, 512 MB RAM
OpenGL or DirectX Compatible 3D Graphics Accelerator, DirectX compatible Soundcard

Granted the differences are miniscule, but they are there. It's my inclination that an older PC would be better suited to TGE than TGEA, that's all. Please excuse my ignorance.

So, if the new TGEA/Juggernaut has about the same system requirements as TGE, and will have support for mac and user support for Linux, then I have no qualms.

#69 Those numbers have not been updated for TGEA 1.7.

You are correct--for very old computers, TGE is better than TGEA. That's intentional (and always has been)--TGEA is focused on more modern hardware.

That being said, you (the community) asked for lowered requirements (especially non-shader cards), and we did our best to provide that and still be fully capable of handling modern hardware abilities.

#70

Quote:Who do you think is the better set of our user community to poll regarding successful indie games--the relative newcomer to the game industry, or the experienced Indie developers that have published games, and are earning enough to live the indie dream full time?

How about your customers?
The people who've paid you for the engine, or the ones who are thinking of paying for the engine but are finding one little feature a blocker [like, say, Mac support].
If you want to poll people on what they think should be added to the engine, you should be polling the people who are giving you, or are likely to give you, money. It's simple business stuff. It doesn't even apply just to indie game development: Company X wants to know what features to add to Product Y. The people who are going to give you money are the people who you should listen to regarding the new features. Not Bob down the road who worked on product Z that's similar to your own Product Y.

How about the hobbiests?
I would hazard a guess that "most" of the community that has purchased TGEA hasn't yet, and probably will never, actually release a game. Hobbiests are your customers, too. How many TGE licenses have been sold, vs how many games have been commercially released using TGE? And for TGEA?

Quote:--more platform availability: result: TorqueWii, updated and expanded XB360 support, and many more systems abstracted (enhanced GFX, SFX, better platform layers) for future development

Hahahaha. You chuck two platforms that you'd previously supported, and garner support for two others that indies and hobbiests can't really afford to develop on? How is that "more" platform availability? You've gone from three platforms that I could reasonably work on with my development stuff at home, to one. I still maintain that nothing is portable until it's been ported. GFX is *not* running with OpenGL until I see it running with OpenGL. So far, your platform layers aren't "better" in my eyes. They're just "different, but without Linux and Mac support".

Gary (-;

#71 Gary, we've been through this so many times in the past, but I'll give it one more go:

TGE still works on Mac, and TGEA has never worked on Mac...so you aren't losing a thing.

For all those hobbyists and other customers that want Mac support--TGE and TGB both support it fully.

Every single Associate we have is a customer. And they are experienced customers. We've met pretty much every single request from the community as a whole (not just Associates), as I've already listed.

Let's turn it around for a minute:

If a generic automobile manufacturer asks me what I want to buy, and I say "a brand new SUV that gets 400 mpg, burns eco-friendly fuel, and costs $1,995"--they will probably say something to the effect of:

"We're working on as many of those features as we can, but don't have a perfect match for you. Here are some new models that are close to what you want but don't have every feature--and our most experienced customers have reported they enjoy the vehicle immensely, even though they can't go off-road.

Of course, if you absolutely must go off road, you can either delay your purchase until something that meets all of your needs come along, or you can take a look at some of the other models we have that we've been producing for a few years, that don't quite have the gas mileage, and don't use eco-friendly fuel, but they do allow for full off-road".

A rational customer in that situation is going to make a choice that works for them. It's very doubtful however that the automobile manufacturer is going to roll out a brand new model that meets the exact feature requirements of < 10% of their market at extreme cost, with little to no return on that investment.

And finally, in case there is anyone that still wants to complain that "there will never be any OpenGL/Mac support for TGEA"...I already quoted Matt's post. Or, you can "wait for the next model", and plan for the next generation of engines from GG.

#72 Look everyone, it is obvious that we aren't going to convince anyone that they don't need OpenGL Shaders for their game and that you guys aren't going to be able to "force" us to deliver them to you on any timeline that isn't our own. We have stated our position very clearly and you have stated yours and speculating about what the other really "thinks" (or what cars we drive...mine is a Ford EscortZX2 that I bought in 2000...Stephen doesn't even have one...Lamborghinis...seriously?) isn't getting anyone anywhere.

You want OpenGL Shaders...we got it...message received loud and clear and often.

We want to give you them but we are unable to commit to a timeline or to reveal our plans in this area beyond what we already have. Whether you believe in our sincerity to see it happen is up to you and beyond our control. We can't state our goals and plans any more clearly than we have. If you want to remain skeptical until we deliver something directly into your hands that is certainly your right. Just please let us work on it in peace.

At this point I am done with this discussion.

#73

Quote:
And this update was...wait for it...free.

You could always argue that the update is free, but customers can also argue that TSE was incomplete even at the 1.0 mark, and that the update is part of what they originally paid for.

#74 The most ironic thing here is that posts like the recent ones frustrate the very people who work their hardest to get you what you want.

The possibility of Mac/OpenGL wouldn't be on the table if Matt hadn't spent just about every single waking moment (and I do mean 16+ hour days, every single day) of the last 4 months getting this update to you.

I've been pressing the case for expanding TGEA to Jugg, and then on to OSX for the last 8 months. This update, for the first time since TGEA was released, lays the groundwork for a smooth path to the Mac, yet even with all of the value you have received, we still hear the same endless complaints.

I'm in agreement with Matt-discussion is closed from my position. You won't hear a single word about OpenGL support in TGEA from me again.

I will state however that it is not in your best interests to continue to complain to the very people that are spending so much energy working towards your goals.

#75 Y'all all need to chill out: Customers--the squeaky wheel gets the grease, but geez you don't have to be d*cks about it. Although I think the GG guys are not as clear in speaking as they think, they've been clear enough.

I mean seriously--they've been fair enough. If we'd spent, I dunno, ten grand on the engine, even then being dickish about it wouldn't be prudent. I'd say six digits gets you the reasonable right to be a dick and expect results! A few hundred bucks doesn't, and these engines are both a bargain at that price.

Seriously. Lighten up. You have the source. No engine is going to be able to do 100% of what you need it to do out of the box. I mean I can't do it. But that's not the point.

But at this rate you're going to give these guys a complex about doing OpenGL, and they're gonna feel like b*tches for doing it. God. LOL geez cheer up!

#76 Don't let the complainers wear you down. Some of us appreciate your efforts.

#77

Quote:The most ironic thing here is that posts like the recent ones frustrate the very people who work their hardest to get you what you want.

Stephen, this makes me chuckle. It's as if you can't quite fathom why your customers treat you the way they do. I go to the C4 or Unity forums, no hostility in sight. Just nice friendly discussions with the devs. Stephen, you seem to think it's all the Torque customer's fault. We're just a bunch of rotten asses who will never be satisfied right? Wrong.

You're reaping the result of the last few years of your efforts, or lack of them. People have the nerve to complain about OpenGL missing in TGEA? Well Stephen, "Don't worry Mac users, OpenGL is at the top of our list!", was on your product description page since TGEA was released. Every stop to chew on that for a while? Seriously.

OMG LOOK TGEA HAS DOCS NOW! Stephen, how about mentioning the sorry state of docs at the time of release up until now. You farmed the job off onto your customers via TDN, which was a horrible failure. So the lack of proper documentation isn't your fault right? I mean, you only sell the product.

More platform availability? How the hell does having Xbox instead of Mac/Linux markets with TGEA really help indies? Inquiring minds want to know.

So with your past track record, there is a lot of mistrust you have built up. Matt is correct in saying that a lot of people are skeptical until something is in our hands. I just find it hilarious that you can't figure out why.

#78 Dead horse...thy name is Locked