Garage Games & OpenGL

#21 Video Card manufacturers, as well as MS themselves, spend very little time making sure their drivers are fully operable under OpenGL....most of the time, you have to go back at least one or two generations of drivers to find one that's stable and operable under OpenGL--and even then, they only implement features that are demanded by the masses.

#22 You should run and tell Nintendo and Sony to stop using opengl then. Those crafty video card manufacturers..

#23 Oh the horror stories I could tell about drivers... Even Apple's drivers have some serious issues ranging from "look, your textures don't work" to kernel panics.

To clear up another point, cellphones and consoles do not use the OpenGL we all know and love (or tolerate). Cellphones use OpenGL ES 1.0/1.1, the Wii uses it's own crazy OpenGL variant, and the PS3 uses "PSGL", which is essentially OpenGL ES 2.0 with Cg instead of GLSL. OpenGL support is not going to make cellphone, Wii, or PS3 support any easier.

#24 All the armwaving in the world won't make directx-only code run on OSX, Linux, Wii or PS3. In recent months, GG have been focussed entirely on directx-only code. The fact that windows drivers may suck a bit at opengl is pretty irrelevant.

Also, you're talking about using drivers a mere one or two releases behind... aren't GG attempting to cater to indies, and casual gamers? It's really hard to push the "most up to date drivers on most up to date hardware may suck a bit" line when that's not even your target or your customer's [the developers posting here, asking for opengl] target.

The long and the short of it is that GG so far have indicated in every way that they're chucking opengl, and so far this thread has fails to signify, at all, the possibility of that changing. There was one post almost four months ago about Torque2 having openGL support, and GG having a more open development process... and there's not been a single peep from GG about Torque2 development before or since.

Gary (-;

EDIT: PS, apologies for what seems like outright hostility. I want to be constructive, but it's sometimes hard to phrase it right. Additionally I've just spent all morning on the phone with my cable service provider, and they anger me.

#25 @Gary...in all fairness, Matt Fairfax did state in his blog about two weeks ago:

Quote:OpenGL and Mac support is still tentatively planned for our fully componetized version of Torque (what we called Torque 2 at IGC...that name may change).

Not that this is fully reassuring, since this is essentially the same approach that was presented for TGEA, and we know now where that ended up.

#26 Heh. "Tentative" is actually a step down from TSE, which was absolutely planned for before the first official release [1.0].

Gary (-;

#27 These OpenGL discussions are amusing but are starting to get tiresome.

First of all, anyone with more than a rudimentary knowledge of OpenGL can implement a fixed-function OpenGL GFX device on TGEA if they simply sit down and do it. The current release of TGEA has one GFX device, D3D9 shader. There are now 5 more devices including software rendering, hardware-specific implementations, and D3D8. We haven't indicated we are dropping OpenGL. There's no reason to. We have an abstracted graphics API. We could write a Glide implementation if the need was there.

Maybe the most frustrating thing of all, though, is that every time this topic comes up, the same stuff gets said. Instead of discussing why the shader constant assignment in GFX doesn't translate well to GLSL, people post opinions, and doomsday predictions. There are countless discussions which could take place regarding GLSL/HLSL and their differences, GFX architecture, the shortcomings of the material system, the issues with shadergen w.r.t. multiple shader languages, render-target issues, and so-on.

#28 The problem is not that OpenGL is or isn't a good API, or if it's enought supported by manufacturers.
The problem is that you can't make profit as a small indie developer if you don't release your game on Mac.

For sure GG and some other developers can focus on PC and XBox360, they have the manpower to produce games that can compete with AAA games by breaking into a niche. That's not the case for most of us who are working with teams from 1 to 3 peoples. In this case you best bet is to work on a Mac & PC game.

#29 @Pat...in all fairness (since I seem to be in a fairness kind of mood), I harken back to Matt F's blog from two weeks ago:

Quote:
Rubes (Jan 18, 2008 at 16:51)
Does that mean that OpenGL and Mac support are planned?

Matt Fairfax (Jan 18, 2008 at 16:55) Resource Rating: 5
They are not currently planned for TGEA.

Perhaps "not currently planned" != "dropping", but that's just what we're going on.

#30

Quote:Instead of discussing why the shader constant assignment in GFX doesn't translate well to GLSL

That might be interesting to a GFX API programmer, but why should I care? I have games to write.

Again, 47% of our sales last year were on the Mac platform. We're not dropping the platform or coming up with our own TGEA Mac platform + GL support.

#31

Quote:
All the armwaving in the world won't make directx-only code run on OSX, Linux, Wii or PS3. In recent months, GG have been focussed entirely on directx-only code. The fact that windows drivers may suck a bit at opengl is pretty irrelevant.

Trying to say this in a lighthearted way, but you have always had a habit of saying "this is what GG is doing", yet you don't have a crystal ball into our offices. One of the biggest frustrations a lot of the employees here have is a combination of that, and taking things out of context.

I responded to the question asked directly above me:

Quote:
I will have to plead ignorance about openGL and DirectX. Is openGL horrible on windows systems? The information that I found (openGl's website) showed that the current openGl stuff ran as good on windows as DirectX. Is DirectX that much easier to work with? I know there is more to compatibilty than just the DirectX/openGL but it seems to me that if you are making a product for PC's why wouldn't openGL be chosen? I know that for certain console, xbox, that probably requires DirectX.

And you immediately turned it around and applied it to what you thought GG may or may not be doing.

Please don't :) He asked a question, and I answered it--nothing more, nothing less.

#32 Pat Wilson,

If its that easy then why don't you get off your ass, do what Garage Games promised, and port the engine to OpenGL. You could save us a lot of trouble. Frankly I'm sick of your company's attitude. You consistently make promises you know you will not keep, you do not make regular updates to TGE or TGEA, you provide absolutely no documentation (incomplete documentation is provided by the user community), and when a CUSTOMER complains you either ignore it or make some smart ass comment.

#33 I think it is important to have a hard look at your market, your game, and then consider the technology.

TGE (and TGB) are excellent options for indie game developers who need to support both Windows/OSX and can't require DX9 level video cards.

Otherwise, Unity3D runs really well on our Mac Mini.

#34 What about embedded.

there is No Direct3D and DirectDraw is history. unless you can find some super hardware that the business side will never agree to use.

what am I to use?

there are no shaders, only fixed function.

I use OpenGL or I am stuck with the framebuffer. doing some blit's.

CE, if you want to call it an OS has no drawing support that is usefull.

as for Desktop PC stuff, I can reinforce the platform argument.
windows platforms are a dead end.

soon there will be no support for XP, and Vista is not a gaming kiosk os, or point of sale os
or any of that.

the business side demands that the hardware is cheap, cheap hardware does not run Vista.
heck, it snivels like mad when running xp.

so bottom line for me? I want scalable solutions, I do not want to support insanity.
so I select OpenGL, and when I can I choose a Linux kernel.

I think GG is a little behind the curve in this decision, but in order to ride with the rest they need to support DX at a higher level.

too bad only that the render design does not seem abstract enough to implement OpenGL easily enuff
or it would have been done.

-Badguy

#35 @Stephen: I respect the fact that you seem to read every forum post every day and try to respond on a regular basis. But I have noticed in recent months that you have been blaming the customer/posters a lot. That's not good business--at all.

I have to think (hope) that you guys have some much, much bigger customers that you are trying to satisfy in other ways, and that is good business. On the other hand, when a whole bunch of smaller customers tell you something, over and over again, perhaps it's something to think about doing. Especially if it's "easy".

We all know we have the source, and ultimately can do everything ourselves, in theory. That's fine. But when customers speak with one voice, a smart company listens--it doesn't argue with them about it.

Why not throw us a bone? If you've got some semi-functional GL code for TGEA, post a resource and who knows, maybe we'll finish it for you.

Personally, I'm surprised you don't spew venom with every post, because if I had to read the forums every day I would lose my freaking mind. I couldn't do it. Let's face it--we are difficult people. PITA really. :-)

#36

Quote:
@Stephen: I respect the fact that you seem to read every forum post every day and try to respond on a regular basis. But I have noticed in recent months that you have been blaming the customer/posters a lot. That's not good business--at all.

Honestly, I'm not blaming anyone. All I did was respond to my comments being taken out of context, and asked him politely to stop. He took what I posted, and used it to imply it to something different, and my response wasn't in any way rude--was just me as a human being posting on the internet pointing out that he took it out of context and applied it incorrectly.

Edit/add: And after seeing posts after mine, should be obvious which one I mean specifically, I am rather appalled that my statements are considered "blame", or "rude", or any other things people may suggest.

#37

Quote: Trying to say this in a lighthearted way, but you have always had a habit of saying "this is what GG is doing", yet you don't have a crystal ball into our offices. One of the biggest frustrations a lot of the employees here have is a combination of that, and taking things out of context.

Aye.

So make with the open development [the "transparent development community" talked about four months ago], and show some signs that stuff *isn't* like it outwardly seems :-).

All I can do, all anyone here can do, is go off what we see, and what I see so far doesn't accurately reflect the things that got me interested in GG and their products years ago.

Gary (-;

#38 I agree--we want TD as much as we originally stated--but we also want quite a bit more as well, and are currently working things in a priority based order that we feel will work the best for everyone involved.

I do have to clarify one thing however--Transparent Development is a strategy particular to our next generation technology (what is currently being called "T2"), not all aspects of our company. Sometimes you have to go in little steps :)

#39 >These OpenGL discussions are amusing but are starting to get tiresome.

No one said it wasn't technically possible, but no one outside GG should need to do what GG said it would do going on 4 years ago. Before I could almost understand - small company, overworked employees, over active imagination of the marketing team trying to drum up new business. Fine, there's just no time for opengl - but now that you've got HomeShoppingNetworkLovin' you've got a big problem. Not only do you have angry customers, you now have enough cash to attract the attention of lawyers who build their weekend homes from companies who push out false advertising. Can anyone say class action?

Point is, you guys are on a whole new playing field with stockholders to please. It's done when it's done attitude isn't going to fly anymore and telling people they're getting x,y,z and not delivering 4 years later will get you into hot water.

So yeah, I can push opengl in, but why should I? You said you'd do it.

#40 Any on rite now