Commercial Licensing?!
by Kirby Webber · in Torque Game Engine · 09/13/2002 (6:26 am) · 19 replies
The FAQ (regarding the newly modified "indie" license) states that you can publish through any publishing entity you like, however, if the combined annual revenue of your company and your publisher exceed $500,000 that you must purchase a commercial license.
Where can I find the details of this commercial license? Is it still being drafted? Is it a "case-by-case" kind of thing? If so, what is the "baseline" for the commercial licensing agreement?
Where can I find the details of this commercial license? Is it still being drafted? Is it a "case-by-case" kind of thing? If so, what is the "baseline" for the commercial licensing agreement?
#2
09/13/2002 (9:19 am)
Okay... thnx for the info. Any news as to a possible date of public release? 
#3
You planning on going over $500,000 in revenue any time soon? Even if you are, we have stated that the commercial license only costs $10,000 with no additional royalties.
I have been kind of blown away by how many people want to know the terms of the commercial license. $500,000 is a lot of money. You won't reach that goal in the near future. Just make your game.
Jeff Tunnell GG
09/13/2002 (10:01 am)
Kirby,You planning on going over $500,000 in revenue any time soon? Even if you are, we have stated that the commercial license only costs $10,000 with no additional royalties.
I have been kind of blown away by how many people want to know the terms of the commercial license. $500,000 is a lot of money. You won't reach that goal in the near future. Just make your game.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#4
OUCH!!!!
09/13/2002 (10:30 am)
Quote:You won't reach that goal in the near future. Just make your game.
OUCH!!!!
#5
09/13/2002 (11:09 am)
heh heh... well, it IS kinda funny. 
#6
And since you'd probably need to present that license to get a publisher as part of the business plan from them to even consider you (and to prove you're entitled to use the technology etc)... catch 22. No?
Of course reaching $500,000 self publishing would be one major task. And departing with 2% of it should be a problem.
Still not clear if $500,000 is net or gross 'revenue' though. One heck of a difference there. Opens up a whole load of accouting workrounds too. As well as the current revision allowing games published through GG to never pay the $10,000 (which was intended?).
Not that any of that affects me, just playing devils advocate. Nor is it ever likly too. I'd be fairly annoyed if I was in your shoes, you hand us this amazing offer and everyone wants too see the small print. Be nice if everyone just realised you're working for us, not against us.
09/13/2002 (11:43 am)
Actually Jeff, unless i'm missing something most people that would want to publish the game through any kind of established publisher would hit that limit instantly...And since you'd probably need to present that license to get a publisher as part of the business plan from them to even consider you (and to prove you're entitled to use the technology etc)... catch 22. No?
Of course reaching $500,000 self publishing would be one major task. And departing with 2% of it should be a problem.
Still not clear if $500,000 is net or gross 'revenue' though. One heck of a difference there. Opens up a whole load of accouting workrounds too. As well as the current revision allowing games published through GG to never pay the $10,000 (which was intended?).
Not that any of that affects me, just playing devils advocate. Nor is it ever likly too. I'd be fairly annoyed if I was in your shoes, you hand us this amazing offer and everyone wants too see the small print. Be nice if everyone just realised you're working for us, not against us.
#7
In fact, it's just plain rude. I sincerely hope that the staff at Garage Games does not share your sense of professionalism and courtesy.
To answer your question, in as much is any of your business, it doesn't take much to reach a $500,000 limit when you COMBINE the revenue of your company AND that of your publisher. This IS what the independednt license CLEARLY states, is it not?
Again, sorry to have troubled you with a LEGITIMATE question.
09/15/2002 (4:37 pm)
Hmmm, a rather scathing remark to make about a completely legitimate question don't you think?In fact, it's just plain rude. I sincerely hope that the staff at Garage Games does not share your sense of professionalism and courtesy.
To answer your question, in as much is any of your business, it doesn't take much to reach a $500,000 limit when you COMBINE the revenue of your company AND that of your publisher. This IS what the independednt license CLEARLY states, is it not?
Again, sorry to have troubled you with a LEGITIMATE question.
#8
If you ARE lucky enough to find a commercial box publisher than cuts you a royalty higher than 15%, willingly does at least mediocre advertising and avidly markets your game, then MAYBE you'll hit the $500,000 marker.
Personally, I'll be happy if I make just $1,000 on the first project. That's enough money for me to upgrade my computer or buy some cool stuff for my room and put the rest away for savings. I'd be happy if made just $500.
Set your sights low as far as profits go. When you're trying to start a company, setting them high usually results in disaster--if you budget for small amounts of money, you can manage it much easier.
I personally think indy gaming is a great hobby that generates cash--you can't go wrong by publishing through GG. No limits on what games you can make or what content is in them (short of pornography and stuff, of course).
09/15/2002 (4:49 pm)
If you publish through GarageGames you WON'T be making more than $500,000--at least on your first game. I'll guarantee you that much.If you ARE lucky enough to find a commercial box publisher than cuts you a royalty higher than 15%, willingly does at least mediocre advertising and avidly markets your game, then MAYBE you'll hit the $500,000 marker.
Personally, I'll be happy if I make just $1,000 on the first project. That's enough money for me to upgrade my computer or buy some cool stuff for my room and put the rest away for savings. I'd be happy if made just $500.
Set your sights low as far as profits go. When you're trying to start a company, setting them high usually results in disaster--if you budget for small amounts of money, you can manage it much easier.
I personally think indy gaming is a great hobby that generates cash--you can't go wrong by publishing through GG. No limits on what games you can make or what content is in them (short of pornography and stuff, of course).
#9
Do you have a game ready to ship? If not, how far off? Can it wait a month or two until they get the license changed? If they only just decided this themselves (meaning no time to get the new license), would you rather have waited a few months more? Perhaps a special deal could be made where you stay on the old license and pay more?
Just be patient. :-)
Eric
09/15/2002 (5:10 pm)
Kirby, $500,000US is a whole lot when you are talking in Indie terms. If any of my games, combined or not, makes over $500,000 not only will they receive my check but I'll hand deliver it and take them out for a beer.Do you have a game ready to ship? If not, how far off? Can it wait a month or two until they get the license changed? If they only just decided this themselves (meaning no time to get the new license), would you rather have waited a few months more? Perhaps a special deal could be made where you stay on the old license and pay more?
Just be patient. :-)
Eric
#10
quote:
________________________________________________________
...if the sum of the annual revenue of the Licensee
and publishing entity exceeds $500,000, without
obtaining a COMMERCIAL LICENSE from the Licensor.
________________________________________________________
What this says, in essence is that your, and your publishers ANNUAL REVENUE meets or exceeds $500,000 then you must obtain a commercial license.
Annual revenue does NOT mean how much was made on YOUR title, but how much money did both companies make COMBINED!
If you publish with an outside company, then you will hit the limit quickly. You have to consider that into that equation goes not only YOUR game, but EVERY game that publisher has published, and drawn revenue from within that year!
I am not beaing arrogant, only practical.
This being said, for anyone considering trying to break into the "box" market, the commercial license becomes VERY important. Someone with PROFESSIONAL aspirations toward game development would have to be a fool to begin production, and thus commit themselves to a product without having seen all of the terms that said project could become subject to.
09/15/2002 (5:37 pm)
I understand what you guys are saying, but you really need to pay close attention to the specific wording of the license!quote:
________________________________________________________
...if the sum of the annual revenue of the Licensee
and publishing entity exceeds $500,000, without
obtaining a COMMERCIAL LICENSE from the Licensor.
________________________________________________________
What this says, in essence is that your, and your publishers ANNUAL REVENUE meets or exceeds $500,000 then you must obtain a commercial license.
Annual revenue does NOT mean how much was made on YOUR title, but how much money did both companies make COMBINED!
If you publish with an outside company, then you will hit the limit quickly. You have to consider that into that equation goes not only YOUR game, but EVERY game that publisher has published, and drawn revenue from within that year!
I am not beaing arrogant, only practical.
This being said, for anyone considering trying to break into the "box" market, the commercial license becomes VERY important. Someone with PROFESSIONAL aspirations toward game development would have to be a fool to begin production, and thus commit themselves to a product without having seen all of the terms that said project could become subject to.
#11
That is the idea. If you publish your game by yourself OR with a partner and your revenue goes over $500,000, then you need the commercial license. There is nothing underhanded or sneaky about this. If you are an indie, it's $100 and have fun. If you are larger, then pay the $10,000. Even this amount is incredibly low.
Jeff Tunnell GG
09/15/2002 (9:54 pm)
Kirby,That is the idea. If you publish your game by yourself OR with a partner and your revenue goes over $500,000, then you need the commercial license. There is nothing underhanded or sneaky about this. If you are an indie, it's $100 and have fun. If you are larger, then pay the $10,000. Even this amount is incredibly low.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#12
Another option is to use stuff like Havok, Renderware, Image Alchemy, Granny, etc and string something together... this gets very very very expensive... each of these is from $7k-$50k depending
If you go over $500k, $10k core technology expense is minimal... if you are under $500k we are talking $100
Make your game... don't worry about this... trust the people who know, Torque licensing is the least of your troubles :)
-J
09/15/2002 (11:54 pm)
An older version of Lithtech will run you something like $10k (the last I looked)... QuakeII $5k ... in this price range those are about your other options...Another option is to use stuff like Havok, Renderware, Image Alchemy, Granny, etc and string something together... this gets very very very expensive... each of these is from $7k-$50k depending
If you go over $500k, $10k core technology expense is minimal... if you are under $500k we are talking $100
Make your game... don't worry about this... trust the people who know, Torque licensing is the least of your troubles :)
-J
#13
Heck, many engines on THIS level go for 100k easy. So yes I agree 10k is a steal.
All I wanted to know is when I might expect to see the actual commercial agreement, not debate the validty of Torque or it's abilities. Their is no debate to be had. I am well aware that it is worth the prices being asked and don't dispute this at all.
If the commercial license is still being written, that is fine. All I was wondering was, is there a projected timeline within which it will be made available for public scrutiny? i.e. when can we SEE it? *~
P.S.
Incidentally, who said ANYTHING about the license being shady or underhanded? I don't see that ANYWHERE in this thread.
09/16/2002 (4:47 am)
Yes, I agree, $10,000 for a royalty free license on Torque/ V12 is a steal when you consider the level it competes on graphically.Heck, many engines on THIS level go for 100k easy. So yes I agree 10k is a steal.
All I wanted to know is when I might expect to see the actual commercial agreement, not debate the validty of Torque or it's abilities. Their is no debate to be had. I am well aware that it is worth the prices being asked and don't dispute this at all.
If the commercial license is still being written, that is fine. All I was wondering was, is there a projected timeline within which it will be made available for public scrutiny? i.e. when can we SEE it? *~
P.S.
Incidentally, who said ANYTHING about the license being shady or underhanded? I don't see that ANYWHERE in this thread.
#14
Information about the engine is very difficult to get hold of, so people have to ask questions, if you get sick of the same questions, thats no excuse to be rude, especially in the position of responsibility you asume..either answer the same every time, or supply an easily accessable lisence, technology, and general FAQ.
Plus, I can understand why you felt there was an implication that the lisence was some how "underhand" but I don't believe this was intended.
09/16/2002 (11:19 am)
I have to side with kirby on this, he asked a perfectly ligitimate question, and was met with a rather hostile response. That's not good customer relations. Whether you think he'll ever make $500k is irrelivent, he asked a question regarding the license, and you gave him very short shrift.Information about the engine is very difficult to get hold of, so people have to ask questions, if you get sick of the same questions, thats no excuse to be rude, especially in the position of responsibility you asume..either answer the same every time, or supply an easily accessable lisence, technology, and general FAQ.
Plus, I can understand why you felt there was an implication that the lisence was some how "underhand" but I don't believe this was intended.
#15
@Kirby: I noticed that all of your posts have now been edited. That is fine with me. We have given a significant technology to the community for nearly no money. You did not ask what happened if you wanted to publish your game with a large publisher. Instead, you asked what happened when your revenue went over $500,000, then, it appeared to me, that you found the word "combined" in the EULA as if it were some sort of underhanded trick.
I'm sorry if I over reacted on my first post. However, that does not change the facts. The Torque is an incredible deal no matter how you look at it. If you want to find holes in the process, GG, or the EULA, you are free to do so, but I think we have proven, more than once, that we are on the side of indies.
Jeff Tunnell GG
09/16/2002 (3:18 pm)
The commercial license is being written. We had already stated it is $10,000. It will not be significantly different than the indie EULA other than stating the additional support you will recieve.@Kirby: I noticed that all of your posts have now been edited. That is fine with me. We have given a significant technology to the community for nearly no money. You did not ask what happened if you wanted to publish your game with a large publisher. Instead, you asked what happened when your revenue went over $500,000, then, it appeared to me, that you found the word "combined" in the EULA as if it were some sort of underhanded trick.
I'm sorry if I over reacted on my first post. However, that does not change the facts. The Torque is an incredible deal no matter how you look at it. If you want to find holes in the process, GG, or the EULA, you are free to do so, but I think we have proven, more than once, that we are on the side of indies.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#16
Secondly, in no way did I intend to discredit GG with my posts. They were simply a request for information. The reason I stressed the point on the specific wording of the EULA regarding combined incomes was to illustrate that this was not an issue of whether or not my individual game would make a 1/2 million, but rather a realistic circumstance for anyone considering publishing in the "box" market.
I in no way intended to indicate that this was some kind of trick, only that the perception of some of those who were posting was incorrect. Without this simple premise, my posts, and requests could easily be made to seem like the ramblings of a megalomaniac. This could not be further from the truth.
The fact is, that I have talked with several publishing companies in the past, and to be quite frank, were I lucky enough to land a deal with any of them, I would automatically default to the Commercial Licensing Agreement without having made a single cent for myself. This is due to the wording of the EULA and the consideration of their(meaning the publishing entity) income, therefore, my request for information regarding the Commercial EULA has been completely misinterpreted.
I am NOT trying to paint this as a GG trick... but the above having been said, the Commercial Agreement becomes crucial to anyone with a chance to put a product on the store shelves!
Regarding the price of Torque, you'll get no argument from me. As I said before, even at 10k it is a steal. I am NOT trying to find holes in the process, only to better understand it.
I can only assume that Torque, and therefore GG have been attacked in the past. This is the only valid reasoning I can come to regarding why my simple request for information has been met with such hostile and inflamitory resistance.
You state that the Commercial License is 10k. Thank you for that information. I am sure that the commercial EULA doesn't differ much from the "indie" but I am sure you can understand that questions arise not having seen it.
I am more than willing to wait and see exactly what it says, in fact, had you iterated this from the beginning, none of this would have happened at all.
That said, please consider the matter closed. I have no desire to endure any further insults or attacks upon my characer.
(Notice: no edit tag.)
09/16/2002 (4:35 pm)
Jeff, first of all, allow me to state that almost every post you will ever see by me on ANY forum will undoubteldy be edited. This is becuase I constantly find typo's in my posts. Nothing more, nothing less. If you are infering that I have changed any of the content affecting the exact meaning of them, let me assure you, that you are incorrect. They state exactly what they originally stated, but with better grammar/ punctuation. (the only exception being the P.S. on my previous post.) The times listed in the edit tags should be proof enough of this. I'm not sure I care much for the inference of your statement, but that is another matter.Secondly, in no way did I intend to discredit GG with my posts. They were simply a request for information. The reason I stressed the point on the specific wording of the EULA regarding combined incomes was to illustrate that this was not an issue of whether or not my individual game would make a 1/2 million, but rather a realistic circumstance for anyone considering publishing in the "box" market.
I in no way intended to indicate that this was some kind of trick, only that the perception of some of those who were posting was incorrect. Without this simple premise, my posts, and requests could easily be made to seem like the ramblings of a megalomaniac. This could not be further from the truth.
The fact is, that I have talked with several publishing companies in the past, and to be quite frank, were I lucky enough to land a deal with any of them, I would automatically default to the Commercial Licensing Agreement without having made a single cent for myself. This is due to the wording of the EULA and the consideration of their(meaning the publishing entity) income, therefore, my request for information regarding the Commercial EULA has been completely misinterpreted.
I am NOT trying to paint this as a GG trick... but the above having been said, the Commercial Agreement becomes crucial to anyone with a chance to put a product on the store shelves!
Regarding the price of Torque, you'll get no argument from me. As I said before, even at 10k it is a steal. I am NOT trying to find holes in the process, only to better understand it.
I can only assume that Torque, and therefore GG have been attacked in the past. This is the only valid reasoning I can come to regarding why my simple request for information has been met with such hostile and inflamitory resistance.
You state that the Commercial License is 10k. Thank you for that information. I am sure that the commercial EULA doesn't differ much from the "indie" but I am sure you can understand that questions arise not having seen it.
I am more than willing to wait and see exactly what it says, in fact, had you iterated this from the beginning, none of this would have happened at all.
That said, please consider the matter closed. I have no desire to endure any further insults or attacks upon my characer.
(Notice: no edit tag.)
#17
I've read all the remarks and I think you're blowing this way out of proportion. Can the drama and just read the license when it's available in a few weeks.
09/17/2002 (4:26 pm)
Quote:That said, please consider the matter closed. I have no desire to endure any further insults or attacks upon my characer.
I've read all the remarks and I think you're blowing this way out of proportion. Can the drama and just read the license when it's available in a few weeks.
#18
At least it did bring to light some clarity, which many may have missed, regardless of the negligable impact on a lot of us who purchased the rights to use the engine.
09/17/2002 (4:42 pm)
Way too much time spent on disagreements.At least it did bring to light some clarity, which many may have missed, regardless of the negligable impact on a lot of us who purchased the rights to use the engine.
#19
I have got the following response to my questions about the licence from Jeff Tunnel. I think the response makes all clear about the licence (Answers are in <<< ... >>>):
My mail and the response:
Hi!
I have a few question about the torque engine indie licence:
* Is it allowed to sell games made with torque using online distribution companies like dexterity.com, realarcade.com,... ? <<>>>
* Is it allowed to sell games made with torque using traditional game publishing companies (like UBI, Jowood) ? <<<<>>
* Is it allowed to promote games made with torque using services like download.com,... (selling them using an own website and paymentservices like regnow) ? <<<<>>>
* If i have to use a business licence - how much does it cost ? <<<>>>>
10/01/2002 (12:08 pm)
Hi!I have got the following response to my questions about the licence from Jeff Tunnel. I think the response makes all clear about the licence (Answers are in <<< ... >>>):
My mail and the response:
Hi!
I have a few question about the torque engine indie licence:
* Is it allowed to sell games made with torque using online distribution companies like dexterity.com, realarcade.com,... ? <<
* Is it allowed to sell games made with torque using traditional game publishing companies (like UBI, Jowood) ? <<<<
* Is it allowed to promote games made with torque using services like download.com,... (selling them using an own website and paymentservices like regnow) ? <<<<
* If i have to use a business licence - how much does it cost ? <<<
Associate Ian Omroth Hardingham
Mode 7 Games