Free games are good
by Sean \\\"Rasulis\\\" Maddox · in General Discussion · 09/09/2002 (5:56 pm) · 18 replies
What is with all these people buying the torque engine then trying to sell games with it, i understand thats why its there but why can't they just release at least one free game to repay the community and the developers of the torque engine for letting them use there great engine at such a cheap price, Also it'd be nice to repay teh community for sharing there scripts to the engine.
If it wasn't for such the cheap price of the engine they would never of been able to make a game. All other engines are in the thousands of dollars and more to use and develop on.
But here is the daimond in the ruff called the Torque engine thats not after major profit, so why can't we all just relese at least one free game for repayment.
The Twisted Innovations team has promised to keep there first game free and dispite the 3 offers we have had to market it we are still keeping it free because we feel we owe the community a repay and the torque developers.
If it wasn't for such the cheap price of the engine they would never of been able to make a game. All other engines are in the thousands of dollars and more to use and develop on.
But here is the daimond in the ruff called the Torque engine thats not after major profit, so why can't we all just relese at least one free game for repayment.
The Twisted Innovations team has promised to keep there first game free and dispite the 3 offers we have had to market it we are still keeping it free because we feel we owe the community a repay and the torque developers.
About the author
#2
By giving a game away for free, you're denying GG the royalties from the sale of the game. Selling games benefits GG, giving them away for free doesn't really benefit anyone long term.
The ideal thing to do is to just sell the game via ESD (once its released), while releasing all modified code back to the community...imo.
09/09/2002 (6:08 pm)
Or, you could look at it another way.By giving a game away for free, you're denying GG the royalties from the sale of the game. Selling games benefits GG, giving them away for free doesn't really benefit anyone long term.
The ideal thing to do is to just sell the game via ESD (once its released), while releasing all modified code back to the community...imo.
#3
This would create more people using there engine and releasing games thus the ripple effect.
09/09/2002 (6:16 pm)
You'd still be hepling the Garage Games team by making them even more famous by allowing any one to play there game and not have to worry about money.This would create more people using there engine and releasing games thus the ripple effect.
#4
09/09/2002 (6:36 pm)
Isn't that what Realm Wars is for?
#5
If you sell the game for like 30 or 20 dollars it wouldn't be as bad but it will probley go for 59.99$ when thats the price of a game that bought a 100,000 dollar engine like the Morrowwind one. I still think torque engine is the best out there.
This is jsut my opionen though and I had to express it because this is what I believe and feel.
09/09/2002 (6:44 pm)
I guess but my point is if it wasn't for this cheap price there selling there engine at you'd never be developing this game.If you sell the game for like 30 or 20 dollars it wouldn't be as bad but it will probley go for 59.99$ when thats the price of a game that bought a 100,000 dollar engine like the Morrowwind one. I still think torque engine is the best out there.
This is jsut my opionen though and I had to express it because this is what I believe and feel.
#6
Also, since most games I would want to make are multiplayer only... I definately would want at least one "official" game server... probably hosted by homelan. I would have to make some kind of money to fund that server. There is no way I am going to lose money on a game that I spent countless hours developing.
When I get time to make a game my plan is kind of a shareware approach. You want more features, you have to pay for them. The game will be anywhere from free to $30 depending what you want.
09/09/2002 (7:26 pm)
Yeah, free games are good. But I know alot of people are like me... I really do not like the idea of spending a year or more working on something only to give it away for free.Also, since most games I would want to make are multiplayer only... I definately would want at least one "official" game server... probably hosted by homelan. I would have to make some kind of money to fund that server. There is no way I am going to lose money on a game that I spent countless hours developing.
When I get time to make a game my plan is kind of a shareware approach. You want more features, you have to pay for them. The game will be anywhere from free to $30 depending what you want.
#7
09/09/2002 (7:27 pm)
Well my first game will be freeware and the sequel of it I am aiming for it to be commercial if the first game is liked by the majority of whoever plays it. So basically my theory is to draw in people to check out my game and if they're into it enough they would want to get the second game to finish off 'the story'. So, that's one way to profit from doing a free game then a commerical game. That way it makes both worlds quite happy.
#8
Also You can usually get companies of some sort to give youd edicated servers like our will have. We have to store every characters stats, items, armor, weapons, skills, experience, health, so on, so on, and that takes a good amount of bandwidth and memeory but we got a company to dedicate us a free, fast, and relaible server.
My main point is I don't mind as much if you sell the game for like 20 or 30 dollars but if you rip people off by selling it for 59.99$ then I don't agree at all.
09/09/2002 (9:06 pm)
shareware games are bad idea because puts players who play and pay at a huge advantage to the ones that don't.Also You can usually get companies of some sort to give youd edicated servers like our will have. We have to store every characters stats, items, armor, weapons, skills, experience, health, so on, so on, and that takes a good amount of bandwidth and memeory but we got a company to dedicate us a free, fast, and relaible server.
My main point is I don't mind as much if you sell the game for like 20 or 30 dollars but if you rip people off by selling it for 59.99$ then I don't agree at all.
#9
Jeremy "Ace Corban" Tilton
Ace Corban Productions
09/10/2002 (12:57 pm)
Sean, your love for games is admirable. I can see that you are only trying to say "Thank you" to GG for supplying you with an engine with which you were able to produce something. But dude, if you've gotten offers, it is a mistake to turn them down. My approach with my project is to not assume any money will be made. I will prolly give it away. But I also intend to enter it into the IGF, and anywhere else I can. I intend to take copies to E3. I intend to take copies to GDC. Why? I owe it to my TEAM. These poor bastards are sharing a vision with me, and they are going through as much as I am to put something out. They have all expressed their willingness to stick with me, and not consider money. But God-Bless them, if they come up with something that rivals today's games, they have every right to earn money for their hard work. And they deserve as much exposure as I can possibly give them. Hey, ur opinions are noble, but if you got a package that people want to give you and your team money for, it would be wrong of you NOT to accept. You know? In the end..GG just wants us all to succeed. That's why they made this place. That's how you can repay em yo. Sell your game, make their work to set us all up, and prepare us all worth something.Jeremy "Ace Corban" Tilton
Ace Corban Productions
#10
personally, all I want is a freeware wheeled vehicle demonstration. no objectives, just the GG buggy model, a jeep, a race car, etc. on an open stretch to test the new wheeled vehicle physics.
09/10/2002 (1:07 pm)
If memory serves, GG originally stated that the majority of Torque games would be released as freeware, and only a select few would be "pay for play".personally, all I want is a freeware wheeled vehicle demonstration. no objectives, just the GG buggy model, a jeep, a race car, etc. on an open stretch to test the new wheeled vehicle physics.
#11
I found this in another forum thread. I found it to be very pertinent:
*************
You buy the engine for $100, you get all the source code to do with what you will.
No restrictions.
No provisions.
No rules.
You own everything and can use it how you like.
The *only* exception is if your revenues are more than half a million dollars in which case you only have a single payment of ten thousand dollars.
For indies this means unrestricted access to a AAA engine and if you get succesful then you only pay GG $10,000 instead of a steady stream of royalties.
No catches, no hidden agendas, just pure indy heaven. ;)
- Melv.
***************
See dat? They really care about us dude. They don't care about money. They want the $10 thou...for games that make it, but that's hella understandable. Cmon dude. These guys just want to see you succeed. Sell ur game.
09/10/2002 (1:14 pm)
SeanI found this in another forum thread. I found it to be very pertinent:
*************
You buy the engine for $100, you get all the source code to do with what you will.
No restrictions.
No provisions.
No rules.
You own everything and can use it how you like.
The *only* exception is if your revenues are more than half a million dollars in which case you only have a single payment of ten thousand dollars.
For indies this means unrestricted access to a AAA engine and if you get succesful then you only pay GG $10,000 instead of a steady stream of royalties.
No catches, no hidden agendas, just pure indy heaven. ;)
- Melv.
***************
See dat? They really care about us dude. They don't care about money. They want the $10 thou...for games that make it, but that's hella understandable. Cmon dude. These guys just want to see you succeed. Sell ur game.
#12
I agree, it can be a bad thing if not done in a good manner.
If it is carefully planned out an implemented in a way that doesn't hurt a nonpaying players competiveness then its a good way to do things. My idea with the shareware approach is to make it so the paying gamers have more options to have fun with... but all gamers will be able to be equally competitive.
09/10/2002 (1:18 pm)
Quote:shareware games are bad idea because puts players who play and pay at a huge advantage to the ones that don't.
I agree, it can be a bad thing if not done in a good manner.
If it is carefully planned out an implemented in a way that doesn't hurt a nonpaying players competiveness then its a good way to do things. My idea with the shareware approach is to make it so the paying gamers have more options to have fun with... but all gamers will be able to be equally competitive.
#13
That's exactly what we are doing with TSRR. We're building a game we have always wanted to play, proving we can do it, learning the engine and loving every minute of it. All in our freetime and given free back to the community.
Our team is on the same page and has the same vision for TSRR. We want to create a funny and fun game for people to enjoy... not a product. Without pressures for revenue and when your measurement is only yourselves... failure does not exist. I'll worry about money on my next title. Right now I want to make the game the way we want it and at our own pace. You make your own rules. ;)
09/10/2002 (1:41 pm)
Quote:why can't they just release at least one free game to repay the community and the developers of the torque engine for letting them use there great engine at such a cheap price, Also it'd be nice to repay teh community for sharing there scripts to the engine.
That's exactly what we are doing with TSRR. We're building a game we have always wanted to play, proving we can do it, learning the engine and loving every minute of it. All in our freetime and given free back to the community.
Our team is on the same page and has the same vision for TSRR. We want to create a funny and fun game for people to enjoy... not a product. Without pressures for revenue and when your measurement is only yourselves... failure does not exist. I'll worry about money on my next title. Right now I want to make the game the way we want it and at our own pace. You make your own rules. ;)
#14
The game is going to be one of our hardest projects ever. Only thing I regret about not taking the offer is we can't make the game one huge world and server with more than 100 players. Thats the cost though of having it free.
We will make another game and sell it but by making this one free increases our fan pool and gets our name out to the gaming community, thus making our next game do even better then this one would.
Also skipping the game offer was a team decision we all decided together Me nor dark did it with out consulting every one else. That would be wrong with out asking them.
09/10/2002 (3:12 pm)
I am glad we skipped these offers for this game. Our game is going to be revolutionary in the game style witht eh fighting system and everything and by making it free it allows more people to play it and us to spread our ideas and creativity put together.The game is going to be one of our hardest projects ever. Only thing I regret about not taking the offer is we can't make the game one huge world and server with more than 100 players. Thats the cost though of having it free.
We will make another game and sell it but by making this one free increases our fan pool and gets our name out to the gaming community, thus making our next game do even better then this one would.
Also skipping the game offer was a team decision we all decided together Me nor dark did it with out consulting every one else. That would be wrong with out asking them.
#15
1. The game will be using the storyline and vehicles
and weapons of battletech.
2. It will show off the torque engine and what it can do
That means people will buy the engine to develop
there games.
3. The game will be my resume showing what I can do.
09/10/2002 (6:53 pm)
The game that I am in the planning stages for right now will be free; The reason I decided for it to be free is for three reasons:1. The game will be using the storyline and vehicles
and weapons of battletech.
2. It will show off the torque engine and what it can do
That means people will buy the engine to develop
there games.
3. The game will be my resume showing what I can do.
#16
Like I said man, ur a noble one. And I DO respect it. You are doing it all for the game, and that is what is really important. When you let money be a dictating factor, it can end up altering ideas to go with what is more "mainstream", making it an unpure market. Free games will be the main source of great ideas, and I would never let money be my motivation for making a game great.
However, all I was saying is that if you were rejecting the offer, just make sure you do it for the right reasons. And you did. You and your team agreed to reject it. I was just making sure you understood that the guys that made this community WANT us to succeed, but at the same time, they also realize that only when games are created purely (out of love of the game and not money) are they truly great. I've blabbed enough...just took me by surprise, cuz I love games, and always wanna make games for the gamer..but we all need money too y'know?
09/10/2002 (8:47 pm)
hey Sean,Like I said man, ur a noble one. And I DO respect it. You are doing it all for the game, and that is what is really important. When you let money be a dictating factor, it can end up altering ideas to go with what is more "mainstream", making it an unpure market. Free games will be the main source of great ideas, and I would never let money be my motivation for making a game great.
However, all I was saying is that if you were rejecting the offer, just make sure you do it for the right reasons. And you did. You and your team agreed to reject it. I was just making sure you understood that the guys that made this community WANT us to succeed, but at the same time, they also realize that only when games are created purely (out of love of the game and not money) are they truly great. I've blabbed enough...just took me by surprise, cuz I love games, and always wanna make games for the gamer..but we all need money too y'know?
#17
I don't look down or see then ones selling there games as evil. I just thought it would be nice to see people release free games for the community of gamers. It'd be nice and refreshing to the game community and force large game companies to release good titles since they are competeing with something free.
09/10/2002 (10:24 pm)
Thanks for all your input guys. I just had to express what I was seeing and feeling about the decisions of some of the community.I don't look down or see then ones selling there games as evil. I just thought it would be nice to see people release free games for the community of gamers. It'd be nice and refreshing to the game community and force large game companies to release good titles since they are competeing with something free.
#18
How could GG developers revolutionize pricing? I think a mix of free, really really low cost and very moderately priced would be an incredible marketing test. Jeff has already said $15.00 (I say $14.95) for Chain Reaction which could go into the channel tomorrow.
I don't have the answers... only opinions, in part biased by the data that has been produced by those who are trying to maintain the status quo, so I don't know. I think it might be the biggest experiment the GG community embarks on - remember GG doesn't set the price of titles except those we develop ourselves.
BTW: I'm all for free games as a universal premium promotion to build the traffic to the site don't get me wrong. I also think the greatest effect will be from games that have a very broad appeal, maybe a card game or puzzle game and maybe a hardcore game or two (we do have RealmWars for free at least for awhile). Also, giving back to the community is happening in a great number of ways, contributing code, tutorials, mentoring, promoting GG on your player sites (still our top referrals are member sites) and promoting GG in your PR. I for one hope we never lose the willingness to collaborate and assist others.
09/11/2002 (10:42 pm)
GG Staff was having a debate very similiar to this over beers not long ago. The question... We're revolutionizing everything else in game development, why not game pricing? I'm the marketing guy and I went into the price elasticity of demand curves and entertainment product value structures. Then Jeff said something like bull... and said look at the music industry they're too stuck on $18 CDs to see how much they could sell if tracks were only 25 cents online or the movie business how many people wait until a VHS tape is $2.99 or a movie goes to 2nd run theaters at $1.50. How many games would we sell (not have stolen) if we charged what people really wanted to pay for them? How much is that? How could GG developers revolutionize pricing? I think a mix of free, really really low cost and very moderately priced would be an incredible marketing test. Jeff has already said $15.00 (I say $14.95) for Chain Reaction which could go into the channel tomorrow.
I don't have the answers... only opinions, in part biased by the data that has been produced by those who are trying to maintain the status quo, so I don't know. I think it might be the biggest experiment the GG community embarks on - remember GG doesn't set the price of titles except those we develop ourselves.
BTW: I'm all for free games as a universal premium promotion to build the traffic to the site don't get me wrong. I also think the greatest effect will be from games that have a very broad appeal, maybe a card game or puzzle game and maybe a hardcore game or two (we do have RealmWars for free at least for awhile). Also, giving back to the community is happening in a great number of ways, contributing code, tutorials, mentoring, promoting GG on your player sites (still our top referrals are member sites) and promoting GG in your PR. I for one hope we never lose the willingness to collaborate and assist others.
Torque Owner Alexander Porter