Calling all Christian Developers
by Brandon Fogerty · in Jobs · 12/14/2007 (8:31 pm) · 39 replies
Hello. My name is Brandon and I would like to develop some Christian based video games. I am a Christian and I think that it is no wonder that the Bible has always been the #1 best seller. It is the best true story ever told! I have seen Christian games and only one has struck me. That would be Timothy and Titus. I believe that with a good Christian Development team, we could develop very fun and educational games about Christ and GOD's word.
I really want to spread GOD's word through the video game industry. As for me, I am a game programmer. If you are interested in my skills, check out my personal homepage.
www.brandonfogerty.com
If you are interested, please send me an email via my website! Thanks in advance!
I really want to spread GOD's word through the video game industry. As for me, I am a game programmer. If you are interested in my skills, check out my personal homepage.
www.brandonfogerty.com
If you are interested, please send me an email via my website! Thanks in advance!
Thread is locked
#22
Regarding your original post, I'm swamped with a bunch of contract work, negotiating a contract for distribution of some game content and my sundry 9-5, but if you need some nice terrains based on DEMs or some original textures I could help you out there. If you were doing something modern I could donate some modern building content, but it sounds like you are working on a possibly a 1st century based game and I haven't put together much that would fit in with that.
@Everyone else. I'm kind of stumped. I see no compulsion here, no proselytizing, merely his opinion. An opinion, I would note, you were in no way obligated to read since the header itself was directed at a specific group of developers here that you could have easily bypassed -- but you chose not to do so. Beyond that I see the free exercise of two explicit aspects of the First Amendment, and speech at least partially covered under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights.
His exercise of free speech and the free exercise of religion is Constitutionally protected speech (at least in the US), and your indication that it should be inhibited or reigned in in some way indicates an attempt to push your beliefs upon others. He can have any opinion he has come to and has the right to declare that opinion, especially one that was clearly directed by the header at like minded developers. You made the conscious decision to disregard that and to read the thread that plainly indicated it's purpose and tone...how can there possibly be an offense upon Brandon's part?
Religious organizations can exclude in hiring practices based on belief systems of that particular organization, see Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (as amended in 1972).
Regarding selling the game, unless you have actually contacted Brandon, I see no indication at least from his original post that it was for a sales distribution, that appears to be an assumption. Again, I don't know what Brandon's intent was(is) but I would defer to him in that regard.
And semantics aside, I believe what he was indicating was that it was in fact clearly the most popular book of all time, and with it's distribution at 4 billion more than the closest completion, I would guess that most individuals that could do that math would at least cede that point. Regarding the sales concept, you have to keep in mind that even the Gideons have to purchase the Bibles from the publishers first before they are distributed to hospitals, hotels and such for free, and that is no different for any organization that in the end distributes them freely. Somebody buys them even if they are given away, and the primarily secular companies like Zondervan and Thomas Nelson (with a thin Christian veneer applied for good looks) are actually the ones profiteering on the sales.
@Derry, classy. Hermeneutics not really your strong point, huh?
12/15/2007 (4:03 pm)
@Brandon, I'd encourage you to continue to walk gracefully as you move ahead, these forums, as with the world, are comprised of people from many different places and backgrounds and an over abundance of zeal here can usually just cause you no end of grief. Just remember it's grace and always grace, keep that at the forefront. They're all pretty good folk here, but choosing your words wisely will always help. (Proverbs 15:1)Regarding your original post, I'm swamped with a bunch of contract work, negotiating a contract for distribution of some game content and my sundry 9-5, but if you need some nice terrains based on DEMs or some original textures I could help you out there. If you were doing something modern I could donate some modern building content, but it sounds like you are working on a possibly a 1st century based game and I haven't put together much that would fit in with that.
@Everyone else. I'm kind of stumped. I see no compulsion here, no proselytizing, merely his opinion. An opinion, I would note, you were in no way obligated to read since the header itself was directed at a specific group of developers here that you could have easily bypassed -- but you chose not to do so. Beyond that I see the free exercise of two explicit aspects of the First Amendment, and speech at least partially covered under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights.
His exercise of free speech and the free exercise of religion is Constitutionally protected speech (at least in the US), and your indication that it should be inhibited or reigned in in some way indicates an attempt to push your beliefs upon others. He can have any opinion he has come to and has the right to declare that opinion, especially one that was clearly directed by the header at like minded developers. You made the conscious decision to disregard that and to read the thread that plainly indicated it's purpose and tone...how can there possibly be an offense upon Brandon's part?
Religious organizations can exclude in hiring practices based on belief systems of that particular organization, see Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (as amended in 1972).
Quote:
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (as amended in 1972) provides that the Act's general prohibition against religion-based discrimination in hiring practices "shall not apply to...a religious corporation, association, educational institution, or society with respect to the employment of individuals of a particular religion to perform work connected with the carrying on by such corporation, association, educational institution, or society of its activities."
Federal and state courts have generally been expansive in their interpretations of what kinds of faith-based organizations qualify for the Title VII exemption. As court after court has observed, there is no "bright line" or obvious boundary between organizations that qualify for the Title VII exemption and those that do not qualify. The courts have chosen to proceed on a case-by-case basis. They have chosen to examinine each organization in terms of its balance of secular and sacred elements.
In 1987, however, the Supreme Court showed how far it was willing to go. In Corporation of the Presiding Bishop v. Amos (1987), it affirmed the Title VII exemption for a religiously-affiliated nonprofit that was conducting an essentially sectarian program.
Regarding selling the game, unless you have actually contacted Brandon, I see no indication at least from his original post that it was for a sales distribution, that appears to be an assumption. Again, I don't know what Brandon's intent was(is) but I would defer to him in that regard.
And semantics aside, I believe what he was indicating was that it was in fact clearly the most popular book of all time, and with it's distribution at 4 billion more than the closest completion, I would guess that most individuals that could do that math would at least cede that point. Regarding the sales concept, you have to keep in mind that even the Gideons have to purchase the Bibles from the publishers first before they are distributed to hospitals, hotels and such for free, and that is no different for any organization that in the end distributes them freely. Somebody buys them even if they are given away, and the primarily secular companies like Zondervan and Thomas Nelson (with a thin Christian veneer applied for good looks) are actually the ones profiteering on the sales.
@Derry, classy. Hermeneutics not really your strong point, huh?
#23
12/15/2007 (4:08 pm)
Darn you beat me at finding where it said that...
#24
12/15/2007 (4:46 pm)
@Alan James: Hermeneutics WTF? Seriously, you can kiss my ass. Read the bible motherfucker and tell me it doesn't say what I say I say does. This is only one of the fucked up things in the old testament. 
#25
Now you not only insist on that, but insult who ask you to be a little more carefully.
Please! I dont understand why such flaming about a simple post like this one. As Alan, Im stumped. This seems to be that situation where some people hate something -religions, or christians in this case- and wait for any excuses to start this kind of nonsense.
Sadly, I think this is a job for David Blake, Stephen Zepp, Matt Fairfax or whoever Admin is around.
12/15/2007 (5:59 pm)
@Derry, from your first post on this thread you are conducting yourself with this really harsh behaviour.Now you not only insist on that, but insult who ask you to be a little more carefully.
Please! I dont understand why such flaming about a simple post like this one. As Alan, Im stumped. This seems to be that situation where some people hate something -religions, or christians in this case- and wait for any excuses to start this kind of nonsense.
Sadly, I think this is a job for David Blake, Stephen Zepp, Matt Fairfax or whoever Admin is around.
#26
12/15/2007 (6:16 pm)
@Novack: I'm sorry, but you are not even coherent! I know you are a smart guy, but you aren't demonstrating that here.
#27
c'mon Derry, take it easy, you know this whole thing is becoming a little beyond limits
12/15/2007 (6:22 pm)
Im only trying to say what I see, that this thread, even as simple as it was, is now kind of out of control, thats why maybe an Admin intervention could fit well.c'mon Derry, take it easy, you know this whole thing is becoming a little beyond limits
#28
I mean... let's face it... people get upset over violent games, citing the illogical conclusion that they lead to real life violence. Most of us who make games disagree, but we understand. Christianity on the other hand HAS actually lead to genocide. I am not saying that Christianity was the cause, but that it was the excuse for genocide. And why not? It advocates tortureing for eternity anyone who isn't a Christian. That actually DOES effect how a group of people act toward another group. I'd say that Derry has every good reason to be offended by Christian games. If people can talk about Grand Theft Auto causing kids to be violent. Derry can talk about the negative potential of Christian games.
I actually am a Christian. I am very aware of the abuses and atrocities that have taken place in the name of Christianity. I am also aware of the wonderful things that have been done in the name of Christianity. I wouldn't make a game based on the Bible stories myself. If I were to make a game that was informed by Christianity... I would probably make a fantasy game about a cleric who has to run around curing illness or something. I think that Christianity, when it is used for good, has always been about helping the helpless. I wouldn't make a violent Christian game.
I think that game based on the Left Behind books is horrible. Where you play a Christian who kills people. Who thought up that game? That is one seriously irresponsible game. And the difference between that and Postal... the Left Behind game teaches kids that it is ok to kill people who are not Christians! That's real life. Postal is aweful, but a fantasy. The KKK and the Nazis were both 'Christian'... as were the Crusaders. In real life, Christianity has lead to real violence. That is something to think about when you are considering making Christian games.
Religion actually effects people in real life. It is not a fantasy for people. It never has been treated that way. People have killed in the name of God. It may seem like it's harmless, but historically, it is anything but harmless to promote violence with religion. Even, maybe especially with a game.
@Alan James
I might add that my Hermeneutics are just fine, being an educated theologian.
12/15/2007 (6:47 pm)
Derry is making very valid points. Christians believe that everyone is going to be tortured in a lake of fire for eternity if they don't convert to Christianity. I am all for religious freedom of speech, but, Christianity advocates infinite torture of 99% of humanity in the history of humanity. I can see why some people are offended by the same people who are OK with most of the humans who have or will ever exist being tortured forever in a lake of fire for not converting to Christianity talking about making games about it. I mean... let's face it... people get upset over violent games, citing the illogical conclusion that they lead to real life violence. Most of us who make games disagree, but we understand. Christianity on the other hand HAS actually lead to genocide. I am not saying that Christianity was the cause, but that it was the excuse for genocide. And why not? It advocates tortureing for eternity anyone who isn't a Christian. That actually DOES effect how a group of people act toward another group. I'd say that Derry has every good reason to be offended by Christian games. If people can talk about Grand Theft Auto causing kids to be violent. Derry can talk about the negative potential of Christian games.
I actually am a Christian. I am very aware of the abuses and atrocities that have taken place in the name of Christianity. I am also aware of the wonderful things that have been done in the name of Christianity. I wouldn't make a game based on the Bible stories myself. If I were to make a game that was informed by Christianity... I would probably make a fantasy game about a cleric who has to run around curing illness or something. I think that Christianity, when it is used for good, has always been about helping the helpless. I wouldn't make a violent Christian game.
I think that game based on the Left Behind books is horrible. Where you play a Christian who kills people. Who thought up that game? That is one seriously irresponsible game. And the difference between that and Postal... the Left Behind game teaches kids that it is ok to kill people who are not Christians! That's real life. Postal is aweful, but a fantasy. The KKK and the Nazis were both 'Christian'... as were the Crusaders. In real life, Christianity has lead to real violence. That is something to think about when you are considering making Christian games.
Religion actually effects people in real life. It is not a fantasy for people. It never has been treated that way. People have killed in the name of God. It may seem like it's harmless, but historically, it is anything but harmless to promote violence with religion. Even, maybe especially with a game.
@Alan James
I might add that my Hermeneutics are just fine, being an educated theologian.
#29
Im a programmer, thats why Im here, and honestly I dont give a damn for your beliefs, nor the Brandon ones.
The point is, that this is not the place, nor the way of discussing such topics, and the only fact here remains beeing that Brandon has all the right to post his call for christian programmers, without all this flamming.
12/15/2007 (6:59 pm)
@Anton, Im not intrested on discussing not one of your opinions. Im a programmer, thats why Im here, and honestly I dont give a damn for your beliefs, nor the Brandon ones.
The point is, that this is not the place, nor the way of discussing such topics, and the only fact here remains beeing that Brandon has all the right to post his call for christian programmers, without all this flamming.
#30
off these Christian based games. However even if I did, I have the right to work with whom I want. In
addition, read the header. I was directly addressing Christians. I see many posts here with headers
such as "Rpg Team wanted" "Space Alien Artists wanted" etc. There doesn't seem to be any
problem there. Why can't I form a Christian group? Is it the GOD aspect that you don't like? Well that
is to be understood, afterall, "They hated me without a cause." John 15:25
Moreover "Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.'[a] If they
persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also."
John 15:20
Clears up things quite nicely huh? Nice to see how the bible is still relevant today.
Referring to mormons, sorry no thank you my friend. Mormonism is a cult which rejects historical
based Christianity. If you want to waste time on this statement, send me an email and I will explain my
statement in full detail.
Anton Bursch, again I didn't say I wanted to make any money off of a Christian game. You are
speculating and creating a straw man argument which isn't fair. Furthermore, GOD is ok with people
making money. Paul shows us that nothing in and of itself is evil. Its what man does with it that makes
it evil. You want free scriptures? Check out www.biblegateway.com Almost every translation you
could want.... guess what?..... FOR FREE! Very useful resource I might add!
Anton Bursch, I am a white American. However if I told you I were Chinese and stood in front of your
face and screamed in to the top of my lungs, it wouldn't make me Chinese. I am still a White Scottish /
Irish based American. Indeed, many people will call themselves Christians, even prophets of Christ.
However Jesus said you would know them by their fruit. If one is greedy, practicing fornication,
stealing mp3s, etc regardless of what they tell you, they are probably not a Christian. Furthermore,
you should not judge a religion based on its adherents. You should look at the religion and investigate
if what it says is true. Not based on what other people do.
Having or taking money is not a sin. It takes money to do almost anything in this world.
Printing bibles for the mass costs money. Furthermore, people who are devoted to printing
the Bible so that the mass can read GOD's word and be saved, need to eat food too. If you
read the old testement, GOD allowed for the Levite preists to eat from the offerings. So my friend,
with moderation, there is nothing wrong with that. Even Jesus had a treasurer. That's called reality.
Tyler Slabinski, no Christians and Catholics don't have the same bible. Its funny that you chose
to single out the Catholics because it implies that you know they aren't Christian. They believe
in infused righteousness and Christians believe in imputed righteousness. BIG difference and
worth dividing over. Want more info? Email me. I agree, people should be treated fairly and equally,
however some people simply aren't qualified for certain jobs. Tyler, would you want a custodian to
perform brain surgery on you? No? Why not? Aren't you being prejudice? Of course you don't want a
custodian to perform brain surgery on you. He is not qualified. As a developer who wants to develop
Christian games as a hobby, I have every right to develop a grading system of whom I believe is and
is not qualified to work on a Christian game.
"I am not interested in man made religions."
"That is a VERY offensive thing to say..."
Jesus was VERY offensive to. That is the main reason he was killed
by the Jewish law teachers. Matthew 23
" It is the best true story ever told!"
"Other religions would think differently... Also very sad to say that your religion is the only true one."
Well my friend, Christianity directly contradicts other major relgions such as Islam, Buhddism,
Hinduism, etc on major issues.
So here is the conclusion. Either all these religions or wrong, or one is right. But they can't all be right.
One simple example is that Hindus believe in retribution via reincarnation.
Christianity says however in Hebrews that each man lives only once and then is judged. Furthermore
in John 14, Jesus makes the definative claim that he is the only way to GOD. That by him and him
alone is there any hope of anyone reaching GOD. Not by Mohammed, or Buhda the agnostic, or by
the countless sexually playful gods of hinduism.
12/15/2007 (8:37 pm)
Thanks to all those who are supporting my cause. To clear things up, I don't plan to make any money off these Christian based games. However even if I did, I have the right to work with whom I want. In
addition, read the header. I was directly addressing Christians. I see many posts here with headers
such as "Rpg Team wanted" "Space Alien Artists wanted" etc. There doesn't seem to be any
problem there. Why can't I form a Christian group? Is it the GOD aspect that you don't like? Well that
is to be understood, afterall, "They hated me without a cause." John 15:25
Moreover "Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.'[a] If they
persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also."
John 15:20
Clears up things quite nicely huh? Nice to see how the bible is still relevant today.
Referring to mormons, sorry no thank you my friend. Mormonism is a cult which rejects historical
based Christianity. If you want to waste time on this statement, send me an email and I will explain my
statement in full detail.
Anton Bursch, again I didn't say I wanted to make any money off of a Christian game. You are
speculating and creating a straw man argument which isn't fair. Furthermore, GOD is ok with people
making money. Paul shows us that nothing in and of itself is evil. Its what man does with it that makes
it evil. You want free scriptures? Check out www.biblegateway.com Almost every translation you
could want.... guess what?..... FOR FREE! Very useful resource I might add!
Anton Bursch, I am a white American. However if I told you I were Chinese and stood in front of your
face and screamed in to the top of my lungs, it wouldn't make me Chinese. I am still a White Scottish /
Irish based American. Indeed, many people will call themselves Christians, even prophets of Christ.
However Jesus said you would know them by their fruit. If one is greedy, practicing fornication,
stealing mp3s, etc regardless of what they tell you, they are probably not a Christian. Furthermore,
you should not judge a religion based on its adherents. You should look at the religion and investigate
if what it says is true. Not based on what other people do.
Having or taking money is not a sin. It takes money to do almost anything in this world.
Printing bibles for the mass costs money. Furthermore, people who are devoted to printing
the Bible so that the mass can read GOD's word and be saved, need to eat food too. If you
read the old testement, GOD allowed for the Levite preists to eat from the offerings. So my friend,
with moderation, there is nothing wrong with that. Even Jesus had a treasurer. That's called reality.
Tyler Slabinski, no Christians and Catholics don't have the same bible. Its funny that you chose
to single out the Catholics because it implies that you know they aren't Christian. They believe
in infused righteousness and Christians believe in imputed righteousness. BIG difference and
worth dividing over. Want more info? Email me. I agree, people should be treated fairly and equally,
however some people simply aren't qualified for certain jobs. Tyler, would you want a custodian to
perform brain surgery on you? No? Why not? Aren't you being prejudice? Of course you don't want a
custodian to perform brain surgery on you. He is not qualified. As a developer who wants to develop
Christian games as a hobby, I have every right to develop a grading system of whom I believe is and
is not qualified to work on a Christian game.
"I am not interested in man made religions."
"That is a VERY offensive thing to say..."
Jesus was VERY offensive to. That is the main reason he was killed
by the Jewish law teachers. Matthew 23
" It is the best true story ever told!"
"Other religions would think differently... Also very sad to say that your religion is the only true one."
Well my friend, Christianity directly contradicts other major relgions such as Islam, Buhddism,
Hinduism, etc on major issues.
So here is the conclusion. Either all these religions or wrong, or one is right. But they can't all be right.
One simple example is that Hindus believe in retribution via reincarnation.
Christianity says however in Hebrews that each man lives only once and then is judged. Furthermore
in John 14, Jesus makes the definative claim that he is the only way to GOD. That by him and him
alone is there any hope of anyone reaching GOD. Not by Mohammed, or Buhda the agnostic, or by
the countless sexually playful gods of hinduism.
#31
"It's sad that you need to sell what god said..."
Again, where is this idea of "selling" coming from? Again, I just want to make Christian games! That
is all I said! However even if I decided to sell it, there is nothing wrong with that. Show me where in
the Bible GOD says you can not sell anything that is related to GOD. GOD is ok with people making a
living. Don't forget, one of the greatest commandments. We are to love GOD with all our heart, soul,
mind, and strength. Our job descriptions as human beings is to glorify GOD. We are to be
representatives of GOD and make GOD look good like he really is. We should be glorifying GOD in
EVERYTHING we do. When we eat, we glorify GOD by thanking him for the food. When we play
music, we play songs and give GOD the glory for our talent. No one mocks a man when he plays the
song "Joy to the World" on a trumpet or on a piano. One of my gifts is programming. GOD has
blessed me as a software engineer. Now I want to glorify GOD with my talent as a software engineer.
Edward Smith, if you understood what salvation means, you would understand why the Bible is the
greatest story ever told!
You don't need a Bible or faith to know that there is a GOD. If you see a building, you know there is a
builder. Even if the builder is dead, buried, and his or her body has rotted away. You can't see, hear,
touch, or taste the builder. Yet you know there must have been a builder because the building is proof
of a builder. You can't have a building without a builder. In the same way, we have a creation that is
EXTREMELY complex and well organized. We are not a cosmic accident and to say so is foolish.
Look out your window. You have a creation which is proof of a creator! Now the question is who is
this creator? Is is GOD? Or is it Buhda, Allah, Krishna, add your own man made god here. That is
what you need to investigate. Stop wasting time with these fallacy driven arguments and investigate.
Jesus said in John 8:32, "and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free". I could write
pages of facts and evidence that would defend/offend very clearly the GOD inspired Bible. However it
has been my experience that no matter how many logical/scientific arguments I provide, people don't
care about truth. They want to continue to live their life the way they want to. GOD is offensive to many
people because he demands people obey and put him first. However many people enjoy breaking the
second commandment and creating a god they are comfortable with whom they would rather
worship... sometimes themselves. This is nothing new. People either want GOD or they don't.
Derry Bryson, I see your urge to be funny. I hope that you understand what "context" means. Lot and
his daughters were sinful just like many other people in the Bible. The perspective of the Bible is like
saying The three little pig story is an evil story written by evil people because the wolf was bad. That is
no logical way to read any kind of text. I suggest you read up on hermeneutics which is the science of
interpreting scripture accurately and correctly. Check out www.wayofthemasterradio.com
They offer a dvd which is a nice introduction to hermeneutics. It is called "Hermen Who?" which
ironically kind of mirrors your reaction to Alan James' comment.
People we have all lied, stolen, dishonored our parents, etc. He have broken GOD's 10
commandments, his uncompromising laws. We are all guilty. GOD is just and so good that the bible
tells us in Revelation 21:8 that not only will he send murders to hell, but he is even going to send liars
too! It doesn't matter how much good you have done. If a guilty murderer brutally rapes and murders a
woman, it doesn't matter how many kids he has fed in Africa, how many dollars he left in coke
machines, how many people he shared his umbrella with, how many elderly women he helped cross
the street. The fact is he is a law breaker and justice demands punishment. GOD is far more just than
an earthly judge and will punish sin. The bible says the wages of sin is death! Romans 6:23
However GOD is also love. It is not a pampering "I just want to give you a big warm cozy hug" love. It
is a perfecting love! GOD demonstrated his love by sending Christ to take our punishment for us on
the cross. Instead of GOD seeing you as a liar, thief, pervert, etc, while Jesus was hanging on that
cross, GOD saw Jesus as the liar, thief, pervert, etc in your place! That is GOD's love! That GOD
would take the just punishment for our sins while we were still sinners.
If you believe in Jesus as your saviour thus repenting, then Jesus will save you from GOD's wrath!
My offer still stands, I would love to join a Christian based game developer team or either start one.
Thanks in advance!
Merry CHIRSTmas!
12/15/2007 (8:37 pm)
" I really want to spread GOD's word through the video game industry.""It's sad that you need to sell what god said..."
Again, where is this idea of "selling" coming from? Again, I just want to make Christian games! That
is all I said! However even if I decided to sell it, there is nothing wrong with that. Show me where in
the Bible GOD says you can not sell anything that is related to GOD. GOD is ok with people making a
living. Don't forget, one of the greatest commandments. We are to love GOD with all our heart, soul,
mind, and strength. Our job descriptions as human beings is to glorify GOD. We are to be
representatives of GOD and make GOD look good like he really is. We should be glorifying GOD in
EVERYTHING we do. When we eat, we glorify GOD by thanking him for the food. When we play
music, we play songs and give GOD the glory for our talent. No one mocks a man when he plays the
song "Joy to the World" on a trumpet or on a piano. One of my gifts is programming. GOD has
blessed me as a software engineer. Now I want to glorify GOD with my talent as a software engineer.
Edward Smith, if you understood what salvation means, you would understand why the Bible is the
greatest story ever told!
You don't need a Bible or faith to know that there is a GOD. If you see a building, you know there is a
builder. Even if the builder is dead, buried, and his or her body has rotted away. You can't see, hear,
touch, or taste the builder. Yet you know there must have been a builder because the building is proof
of a builder. You can't have a building without a builder. In the same way, we have a creation that is
EXTREMELY complex and well organized. We are not a cosmic accident and to say so is foolish.
Look out your window. You have a creation which is proof of a creator! Now the question is who is
this creator? Is is GOD? Or is it Buhda, Allah, Krishna, add your own man made god here. That is
what you need to investigate. Stop wasting time with these fallacy driven arguments and investigate.
Jesus said in John 8:32, "and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free". I could write
pages of facts and evidence that would defend/offend very clearly the GOD inspired Bible. However it
has been my experience that no matter how many logical/scientific arguments I provide, people don't
care about truth. They want to continue to live their life the way they want to. GOD is offensive to many
people because he demands people obey and put him first. However many people enjoy breaking the
second commandment and creating a god they are comfortable with whom they would rather
worship... sometimes themselves. This is nothing new. People either want GOD or they don't.
Derry Bryson, I see your urge to be funny. I hope that you understand what "context" means. Lot and
his daughters were sinful just like many other people in the Bible. The perspective of the Bible is like
saying The three little pig story is an evil story written by evil people because the wolf was bad. That is
no logical way to read any kind of text. I suggest you read up on hermeneutics which is the science of
interpreting scripture accurately and correctly. Check out www.wayofthemasterradio.com
They offer a dvd which is a nice introduction to hermeneutics. It is called "Hermen Who?" which
ironically kind of mirrors your reaction to Alan James' comment.
People we have all lied, stolen, dishonored our parents, etc. He have broken GOD's 10
commandments, his uncompromising laws. We are all guilty. GOD is just and so good that the bible
tells us in Revelation 21:8 that not only will he send murders to hell, but he is even going to send liars
too! It doesn't matter how much good you have done. If a guilty murderer brutally rapes and murders a
woman, it doesn't matter how many kids he has fed in Africa, how many dollars he left in coke
machines, how many people he shared his umbrella with, how many elderly women he helped cross
the street. The fact is he is a law breaker and justice demands punishment. GOD is far more just than
an earthly judge and will punish sin. The bible says the wages of sin is death! Romans 6:23
However GOD is also love. It is not a pampering "I just want to give you a big warm cozy hug" love. It
is a perfecting love! GOD demonstrated his love by sending Christ to take our punishment for us on
the cross. Instead of GOD seeing you as a liar, thief, pervert, etc, while Jesus was hanging on that
cross, GOD saw Jesus as the liar, thief, pervert, etc in your place! That is GOD's love! That GOD
would take the just punishment for our sins while we were still sinners.
If you believe in Jesus as your saviour thus repenting, then Jesus will save you from GOD's wrath!
My offer still stands, I would love to join a Christian based game developer team or either start one.
Thanks in advance!
Merry CHIRSTmas!
#32
Also, this is a community meant for game development purposes, not writing double, multiple page posts citing why your religion is the one true religion, or citing multiple, multiple, multiple scriptures. Please show some respect for those other "man-made" religions, if you expect to receive any in return. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, right? Realize that your, and all, religions are based upon pure faith. Do not condemn those who follow a seperate faith. Coming from a Christian background, I really feel as though you are doing a disservice to that community.
Happy holidays.
12/15/2007 (9:05 pm)
I personally find this thread offensive, and believe it should be removed, and then reposted in a more proper manner. There is absolutely nothing wrong with attracting a group of like-minded, christian game developers, however your manner in doing so is quite poor. Also, this is a community meant for game development purposes, not writing double, multiple page posts citing why your religion is the one true religion, or citing multiple, multiple, multiple scriptures. Please show some respect for those other "man-made" religions, if you expect to receive any in return. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, right? Realize that your, and all, religions are based upon pure faith. Do not condemn those who follow a seperate faith. Coming from a Christian background, I really feel as though you are doing a disservice to that community.
Happy holidays.
#33
Just a little preachy ...
I think that this thread has gotten way out of hand, it's starting to turn toward a religious flame war.
12/15/2007 (9:06 pm)
Well that was an un-needed bible lesson, but thanks for sharing anyway. Just a little preachy ...
I think that this thread has gotten way out of hand, it's starting to turn toward a religious flame war.
#34
I certainly wasn't flaming Brandon for posting for Christian developers. I am a developer who is a Christian.
This is an indie game development website. This IS THE place for adult conversations about games and religion and politics and whatever else there is to talk about related to game development. Brandon is pretty open about his religious beliefs and how he wants them to be apart of game development. As am I. We can do that you know.
Games may be for the little kiddies, but game development is for adults and indie game development is for free thinking adults. And where else IS a religous game going to be developed in the world? In a big studio like EA? No. It will be an indie team like Brandon is looking to build. And as a Christian and a free thinking game developer... this is the place to have an influence on the future of religous games. Right here in this thread. Where else is religous game development being discussed without censor? This is one of the best things about the GG community. Don't discourage one of the most important discussions that could take place on an indie game development community website. There's plenty of discussion here about everything else. This is as valid a discussion as the argument for OpenGL 2 in Torque 2.
12/15/2007 (9:08 pm)
Novack,I certainly wasn't flaming Brandon for posting for Christian developers. I am a developer who is a Christian.
This is an indie game development website. This IS THE place for adult conversations about games and religion and politics and whatever else there is to talk about related to game development. Brandon is pretty open about his religious beliefs and how he wants them to be apart of game development. As am I. We can do that you know.
Games may be for the little kiddies, but game development is for adults and indie game development is for free thinking adults. And where else IS a religous game going to be developed in the world? In a big studio like EA? No. It will be an indie team like Brandon is looking to build. And as a Christian and a free thinking game developer... this is the place to have an influence on the future of religous games. Right here in this thread. Where else is religous game development being discussed without censor? This is one of the best things about the GG community. Don't discourage one of the most important discussions that could take place on an indie game development community website. There's plenty of discussion here about everything else. This is as valid a discussion as the argument for OpenGL 2 in Torque 2.
#35
You are so dang funny. You're like a pendulum and I love it. Seriously. You can rave on one end of the spectrum and then jump to the other end and fight just as hard. I really mean that with all sincerity. Appreciate the last post, and saved me the effort of continuing on with the effort and the fundamental point. Well said.
12/15/2007 (9:20 pm)
@Anton,You are so dang funny. You're like a pendulum and I love it. Seriously. You can rave on one end of the spectrum and then jump to the other end and fight just as hard. I really mean that with all sincerity. Appreciate the last post, and saved me the effort of continuing on with the effort and the fundamental point. Well said.
#36
I did make an assumption that you wanted to make religious video games for profit. And I do think that if you did want to, that you have every right to do so. You did say that you want to 'spread God's word' thru the video games you make. That I do think should not be sold. That is my opinion. I have every right to have that opinion and state it. In no way does stating my opinion prevent you from doing whatever you want.
I am a fellow Christian. I am also a full time professional indie game developer. I do have an opinion about game development and my religion. As do you. We both shared them. Good for us.
By the way: Jesus' treasurer was Judas. And Judas regularly stole from the treasury. Judas was a zealot. Zealots were a faction that believed that the Messiah would return to be King of Israel and free them from Roman dominance. Many theologians speculate that Judas betrayed Jesus not only for money, which is plainly stated, but also because he was dissapointed that Jesus didn't live up to the Zealot belief when he explained that he planned to die to free everyone in the world from Sin and Death. Interesting huh. How Jesus said that you could only either serve God or money. Judas... chose money.
That's the reason why I don't think that games meant to spread Christianity should be sold. All of the history of selling Christian merchandise has shown that people allows wind out choosing to serve money. It's like power. It corrupts. And there are plenty of people who would help fund a game to spread Christianity without it ever needing to be sold so that the developers could make a living making the game. Might not get rich, but, do you really want to get rich off of 'spreading God's word'.
12/15/2007 (9:29 pm)
Brandon Fogerty,I did make an assumption that you wanted to make religious video games for profit. And I do think that if you did want to, that you have every right to do so. You did say that you want to 'spread God's word' thru the video games you make. That I do think should not be sold. That is my opinion. I have every right to have that opinion and state it. In no way does stating my opinion prevent you from doing whatever you want.
I am a fellow Christian. I am also a full time professional indie game developer. I do have an opinion about game development and my religion. As do you. We both shared them. Good for us.
By the way: Jesus' treasurer was Judas. And Judas regularly stole from the treasury. Judas was a zealot. Zealots were a faction that believed that the Messiah would return to be King of Israel and free them from Roman dominance. Many theologians speculate that Judas betrayed Jesus not only for money, which is plainly stated, but also because he was dissapointed that Jesus didn't live up to the Zealot belief when he explained that he planned to die to free everyone in the world from Sin and Death. Interesting huh. How Jesus said that you could only either serve God or money. Judas... chose money.
That's the reason why I don't think that games meant to spread Christianity should be sold. All of the history of selling Christian merchandise has shown that people allows wind out choosing to serve money. It's like power. It corrupts. And there are plenty of people who would help fund a game to spread Christianity without it ever needing to be sold so that the developers could make a living making the game. Might not get rich, but, do you really want to get rich off of 'spreading God's word'.
#37
Hey, it's just my opinions here. I don't think I'm a bearer of some light of truth. Just like the discussion.
Better than another discussion about whether Linux is the future and Microsoft is the devil. :P
12/15/2007 (9:30 pm)
Alan James,Hey, it's just my opinions here. I don't think I'm a bearer of some light of truth. Just like the discussion.
Better than another discussion about whether Linux is the future and Microsoft is the devil. :P
#38
I have no idea...
Sadly you don't have that right. Look up "The Civil Rights Act of 1964" and read "Title VII"
Ok, now I see that your saying that we all should be christian... Not the best thing to say on a forum. And why do you say GOD? Why not God? I have nothing wrong with it, but it seems kinda strange. You say that God blessed you being a software engineer... No comment.
Can we get an admin in here?
12/15/2007 (9:33 pm)
Quote:" I really want to spread GOD's word through the video game industry."
"It's sad that you need to sell what god said..."
Again, where is this idea of "selling" coming from?
I have no idea...
Quote:I have the right to work with whom I want.
Sadly you don't have that right. Look up "The Civil Rights Act of 1964" and read "Title VII"
Quote:We are to love GOD with all our heart, soul,
mind, and strength. Our job descriptions as human beings is to glorify GOD. We are to be
representatives of GOD and make GOD look good like he really is. We should be glorifying GOD in
EVERYTHING we do. When we eat, we glorify GOD by thanking him for the food. When we play
music, we play songs and give GOD the glory for our talent. No one mocks a man when he plays the
song "Joy to the World" on a trumpet or on a piano. One of my gifts is programming. GOD has
blessed me as a software engineer. Now I want to glorify GOD with my talent as a software engineer.
Edward Smith, if you understood what salvation means, you would understand why the Bible is the
greatest story ever told!
Ok, now I see that your saying that we all should be christian... Not the best thing to say on a forum. And why do you say GOD? Why not God? I have nothing wrong with it, but it seems kinda strange. You say that God blessed you being a software engineer... No comment.
Can we get an admin in here?
#39
He wants to work with Christian developers. He wants to make a Christian game. End of story. If there are Christian developers, and I know a number of them, then let they team up and make a game. Let Hindu's and Buddhists and atheists and satanists make their games with groups of likeminded developers. You know what? All the mad forum-posting skizzilz in the world probably won't belay them for long.
If the others in this topic want to make a neo-Nazi game, I say go ahead. I will be vehemently opposed to Ethnic Cleansing 2, but I'll support your right to make it. Just like I support his right to make a Christian game. And I'm about as far as anyone can get from either one. But I support indie gaming, and from my perspective, Christian gaming is a great niche...and it serves the purpose that they wish to fulfill. Personally, I think Christian game developers should get together with Serious Game developers to share tactics since their "markets" are similar in many aspects.
Now, take this to e-mail if you feel the need to argue what is/isn't Christian/Catholic/Mormon or talk trash about each other's religions. I'm a devout apathist. I don't even think about such things or really care, which makes it irritating to see supposedly professional developers fly off the handle about something that has absolutely no effect on them. I guess I should expect it with the way people scream in the violence in videogames topics. But I feel like I wandered back to modding 12 year olds on the wrestling boards at GameFAQs.
I was hoping that time in my life was over.
Take it to e-mail.
@Brandon
I would suggest posting another topic since this one has bounded beyond its focus. And I would suggest that anyone who has problems with his topic to send them to him via e-mail where the rest of us can be professionals and not have to deal with it.
12/15/2007 (9:42 pm)
Alright, this is more than a bit insane.He wants to work with Christian developers. He wants to make a Christian game. End of story. If there are Christian developers, and I know a number of them, then let they team up and make a game. Let Hindu's and Buddhists and atheists and satanists make their games with groups of likeminded developers. You know what? All the mad forum-posting skizzilz in the world probably won't belay them for long.
If the others in this topic want to make a neo-Nazi game, I say go ahead. I will be vehemently opposed to Ethnic Cleansing 2, but I'll support your right to make it. Just like I support his right to make a Christian game. And I'm about as far as anyone can get from either one. But I support indie gaming, and from my perspective, Christian gaming is a great niche...and it serves the purpose that they wish to fulfill. Personally, I think Christian game developers should get together with Serious Game developers to share tactics since their "markets" are similar in many aspects.
Now, take this to e-mail if you feel the need to argue what is/isn't Christian/Catholic/Mormon or talk trash about each other's religions. I'm a devout apathist. I don't even think about such things or really care, which makes it irritating to see supposedly professional developers fly off the handle about something that has absolutely no effect on them. I guess I should expect it with the way people scream in the violence in videogames topics. But I feel like I wandered back to modding 12 year olds on the wrestling boards at GameFAQs.
I was hoping that time in my life was over.
Take it to e-mail.
@Brandon
I would suggest posting another topic since this one has bounded beyond its focus. And I would suggest that anyone who has problems with his topic to send them to him via e-mail where the rest of us can be professionals and not have to deal with it.
Torque Owner Derry Bryson
Default Studio Name
Then later Lot can have sex with his daughters, since they are so horny and there aren't any other males around.
This would be a great game!