Is School really the best route into the games industry?

#1 Mark - you'll get a ton of opinions on this board. But surely your university has a guidance counselor who can help you better - Talk to her, give her information you've given us, and ask about tailoring your class schedule more toward your chosen profession.

#2 Thank you for the response, I will look into that and see what happens. It'd still be nice to hear different opinions though.

#3 Come see me mark. We can talk it over. There are definitely ways for you to go that will work out. But I'd be interested in hearing what you think anyway.

I'll be away for a few days, but catch up with me tuesday afternoon or wednesday afternoon.

Phil Carlisle. (And so you all know, I'm a lecturer at said uni :)

#4 Small world isn't it.. :-)

#5 You really should endure the lasting period strengthning your general skillset, as well as giving you a prove that you can complete tasks. After all, the general base, will give you 'the language' the industry bees use and allow for you to cope what is going on -when the future seat are to recieve workload!

Im currently at 1st semester in Java/UML myself, and with 4 more to swallow. Working on a mmorpg alongside this, and just been offered a job as coder/document slave -I'm going to stick at my education.

-especially as I am learnign new stuff at a weekly base!

#6 Of course school is the best and only route into the game industry, unless all you ever want to be is a hobby developer.

#7 Mark:

I'd say just tough it out and I know where you're coming from. I am about done with my MSEE. I had to work (at times, full-time hours) during my entire BS and MS experience. In fact, my grades (while still very good) probably would have been better had I not intentionally cut time away from school to focus on the hobby learning when I just couldn't take it any more. BUT when it came down to it (hobby versus school), my hobby learning had to be pushed aside.

But, you know what? Getting the degree is still the best route. It gives you an option to fall back in if, say, you no longer want to make games or can't find a games job in a reasonable amount of time. Plus, the cool thing is once you get far enough in your university studies, then you start to control your own fate. So while I may have had to suffer through a year of CMOS courses, I got to take almost 100% of what I wanted to learn for my senior year and two years of graduate school.

My advice is that you just keep chipping away and be patient. The rewards will come. And if you can't be patient, just cut down on the number of credits you're taking for a term. See how well you do as a person focused more on personal projects. It won't cost you must time in the long term. I'll note that I did that more than once -- but always felt the time would have been better spent on school.

#8 @Mark: That is ultimately a decision for you to make. This is a decision I fought with for awhile so I'll relate a little of my experience with this issue (not specifically going into the gaming industry, but whether to pursue a degree or not).

I got into software development due to a fascination with game programming as a kid. I was self taught in QBASIC, primarily making text based RPGs / adventure games. The reason I program is because of my initial interest in games and being able to make them.

I left college after 1 semester (had already been programming for about 6 years by the time I started college, and had been working in New York City doing web application / SQL database development while I was in high school in the 90s). I do not regret my decision at all. I have never had a problem getting a job anywhere in the United States. By today's standards it is a somewhat unconventional decision, but for every place that requires a degree there are dozens that will glance over it if you have an impressive resume and work experience. This includes major corporations. Another thing to consider is that the same places that require degrees for employees will often not have the same requirement for contractors.

If you can handle it, go ahead and do both (continue working outside of school, at home, taking extra courses and so on while completing your degree). Once you graduate your degree becomes 2 lines on your resume and that's it really. It satisfies a check box on some hiring manager or HR person's list at some (but by no means all) corporations.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the skills you have today will likely be outdated within 5 years. You must keep up your personal skills and experience outside of formal education. For example, I'm not saying that there aren't still jobs for COBOL or FORTRAN programmers, but a guy who has 20 years of COBOL experience is not going to be as well prepared as a guy who has 20 years programming experience with 5 years of that being .NET. Having years of experience with Photoshop will certainly be more valuable for most people than only having skills in say, oil painting.

As far as being able to get into the gaming industry, take a look at job listings at almost any gaming-related company. Most now say something along the lines of "four year degree or equivalent experience". This has become far more common in most technology-related industries as a whole (at least in the US). Finding qualified candidates (people who can actually perform their job) is an increasingly difficult task (the company I presently work for pays a $6000 finders fee for referring people who end up getting hired and stay at least 6 months, for example). I am constantly bombarded with emails, snail mail and occasionally phone calls by recruiters trying to sway me to take up new positions at companies all around the country (recruiters can easily make $10k, $20k or more per applicant that ends up getting hired through their agency -- a price that companies hiring skilled individuals are willing to pay).

Another thing to keep in mind is that you should not confuse education and experience. There is a great divide between the two. I've interviewed and trained enough people with master's degrees that my first impression of such degrees now is generally more negative than positive. Many (not all of course) people who end up going for their masters (technically making them more "educated") are essentially professional students and are severely lacking in any useable skills by the time they get out into the working world. True education is about you gaining real and useful knowledge; not any formal institution.

Interestingly enough, through my own personal projects I've come in contact with people who are the founding members of gaming companies. I have been offered positions with these companies simply based on a highly modified NWN server that I created (and that's still around, albeit nowhere near as popular). More recently, contacts from a previous job have been getting a hold of me in regards to interest in funding gaming startups. The former President of a large multinational corporation (he left the company after his contract from a merger ended, leaving him with a multi million personal cash out) became aware of my current project and has expressed interest in getting into the gaming industry. This isn't someone I knew well personally, aside from meeting briefly on one or two occasions, but maintaining good relationships with the people you meet and work with can go a long way. This opportunity is not necessarily one that I will end up pursuing, but these types of things can come your way as you advance your career, skills and reputation -- both in a work environment and outside of it.

Ultimately, whether you decide to pursue a degree or not, your persistence, personal dedication and motivation are the main things. You can do almost anything you want with or without a degree (baring certain highly regulated fields such as practicing medicine of course). If you get a degree and let your skills grow stagnant, you will not be much better off than if you maintain a lifetime of skills gained through personal experience. You may be worse off if you have to pay for student loans. Once you drop the ball, it's always an uphill battle. While a degree can certainly be useful, it is by no means as necessary as some would make it out to be (in many cases, school guidance counselors and the like who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo and keeping the flow of billions of dollars coming into the education system).

#9 I wasn't really going to head down any particular path with this question, but
I have to agree with Matt. I went to college for 4 years, in 3 states and in the
end didn't end up with a degree. I was studying Electronics Engineering and
Computer Science. It's a tale of woe to be sure as to why I didn't end up with
the degrees I had worked so hard for. A tale I wont go into here.

(yes, there is such a thing as Electronics Engineering. They focused the course
on chips and building the support circuits around them.)

I've worked for places like The IRS and Intel. The last two jobs I had I was the
IS Department Manager. In both cases I was hired over someone who had a
degree in computer science and MCSE certification. (I have niether.) In all the
jobs I've applied for, I've never ever been told that I wasn't hired becuase I
didn't have a degree, only that they hired someone with more experience.
Once I had 4 years experience I stopped hearing that, and found it easier
to get those jobs.

As long as you know your stuff, and it shows in your attitude, you can get a job.

#10 @Matt

I totally agree that experience trumps education. But I don't think in today's market, compared to the widely expanding market of the 90s, you could get a job as "easily" without a degree. I work for Intel right now. There are simply certain sections of the company that won't give you a sniff as a new hire candidate unless you have an MS. It's strange and somewhat artificial, but true. Of course, once you're granted an interview then it's time to show your stuff.... I've certainly had interviews with the right education but wrong experience and ended up doing pretty bad.

With that said, I think smaller companies tend to look for relevant experience more than education. At least that's my experience. I'll note that I'm just talking about programming / engineering jobs in general. There aren't too many games-related jobs in Oregon. :)

#11 Surprisingly, there are decent amount in Eugene OR. There are a number of game companies here, some smallish, some a little bigger.

#12 Id have to agree that experience is preferable to education, in all but a few practices (such as doctors, lawyers, etc)

I have no college other than the credits Ive received from my training in the Air Force, and really dont plan on completing any, other than taking a class or two to learn something like underwater basket weaving.

About a year ago I was going to get out of the Air Force and threw my resume towards several companies, several of which replied back offering me good jobs that dealt with electronics on a low level. One even asked me to come for an interview, for an engineering job. I basically told them, "You do know that I have no formal education in EE right?". They said they knew that, but my experience and apparent knowledge of electronics down to the circuit level was what they wanted. I then asked them if the interview was for a position doing engineering, not a position as an engineer's stool pigeon, to which they said yes its an engineer position.

This surprised me quite a bit. My dad had almost succeeded in brainwashing me into thinking that you could never make anything of yourself unless you had a degree (the man has like a bunch of them). Ive always had a good laugh when I see a college grad get passed up in favor of some yatz with real world experience.

Dont take this as me saying higher education isnt important or useful, but you can probably get along fine if youve got experience, as long as your prospective employer isnt brainwashed that schooling is the only way.

#13 I didn't read all of the posts, just skimmed through and got the jist. I actually fell for one of the video game design degrees. Was a six year degree at a college by me here in Atlanta. All I'm going to say is, i have a crapload of student loan debt and I'm working a 7 dollar an hour dead end job. Oh and it has nothing to do with the game industry. School can affect your chances in the gaming industry, but I've met probably hundreds of people in the streets who are going to school for game programming and 3d game animation, and that's just in my city. I think the work you do will hold the most weight after the degree, cause video game production seems to be one of the most sought after jobs at the moment.

#14 Wow. Didn't think I'd ever see a topic like this. The answer, almost all of the time, would logically have to be yes. No matter what part you play in the gaming idustry, school will greatly improve your experience and knowledge at that area. It just matters what classes you take-Obviously, taking english and speach related classes will strongly bennifit a writer, like myself. Therefore, taking directing classes applies to directors, Theater for actors, and art for artists. Granted, none of that is anything other than common sense, but the point is that no matter what you want to do, learning about it at college (especially one that has a very good program in the areas of study you wish to profess at) is the best way to get there. Now, I'm not saying it's impossible, or even improbable, that someone can get most creativity based jobs without attending college, but people are going to be a lot more likely to hire you if you are at least currently or have previously learned proffessionally that which you would do under their employ. And there are always universaly benificial courses of study, such as business, science, and, of course, psychology. The later being an underappreciated gem, as a means to not only better undestand the way the mind works, but to be able to immitate those inner emotion/thought processes in your art as if they were real.

Respectfully yours,
Tomas Krystinik

#15 As a student, I think it's best to hit up school for the exp. Then, you're a higher level when you start in the industry and can skip some of the early levels. Sure, there are a lot of cinematics, but the intense level pacing surely will get you ready for hard work.

Hah - anyway, I've been getting by at school by spending most of my free time working on games. This term in particular, it's been really hard to find time, but that's a challenge I'll face in the industry anyway, so I'll be better prepared than most. If you really feel like you're wasting time, talk to some profs or deans or whomever can help. A motivated student can get a lot more out of a bad school or class than a lazy one. Sometimes, learning relational programming doesn't seem all the relevant to games, but expanding your conceptual framework about problems never hurts. And when you get to write a thesis, do it on something game related :)

#16 For Artists yes, the problem as an Artist is making your skills distinct. Increasingly the whole media sector demands grads and games is the same. I have taught many Masters students over the years and nearly all have gone onto really good industry jobs.
For Programmers i reckon there is no substitute for just doing it, you might pick up some skills on a good uni course but in the end your raw ability will make the difference, although a degree will improve your salary

#17 If there had been a Game Programming program (apologies for the redundancy) way back then, I certainly would have taken it. Everything I've learned about game programming has been learned the hard way, and it has taken longer than if I'd studied it at school, and there are definite holes in my education. For example, I've been using Torque for, um, a few years now, and I just recently found the time to learn the nuts 'n' bolts of OpenGL and DirectX. After I get finished with those two HUGE topics, I'll go on to learn C#. I'm also going to go through a book on writing my own game engine, not for distribution or anything, just to get a better look at how the things work.

At school, you get access to free or discounted versions of the big boys' toys, like Photoshop, Maya and so on. And if you pick the right school, you will attract the immediate attention of potential employers who want your game programming skills.

If you can't find a school with a Game Programming program (erk), look for a school with a 3D animation program. On this side of the ocean, University of Michigan has something (they just started a Serious Games Programming master's degree program), Brigham Young Unversity has a highly respected animation program, and tons of schools in both the L.A. (California) and San Jose (also California) areas have programs. The California programs are financially supported, if not underwritten, by entities like Pixar, LucasArts, Dreamworks, Disney, ...

Dunno about the tea-drinking side of the Atlantic, but as Phil Carlisle mentioned, he knows a thing or two about schools Over There. Best of luck to you, whatever you decide to do.

--
Regards
Ray

#18 I have a Computer Science degree. In my last semester I turned to game programming. I spent a short time at a game company but the hours were ridiculous and I had absolutely no say despite the speech I got from HR when I was hired. So, now I'm working on web applications, which I have some professional experience with.

Did university help? It did because I perservered through four years. I have a broad skillset from having to take electronics, logic, programming, etc. classes.

Am I where I want to be? Not at all. I wanted to design games. I don't have the experience to have a company trust me with the task. I make good money, go home and work on games as a hobby. The game industry isn't large enough for everyone who wants to be a part of it.

#19 You don't need a college degree to get a job in the game industry. But it helps. A degree from a specialized course can help even more. Though, I don't know if I'd go that route - you may not want to be in the industry forever (as crazy as that may sound right now!)

The two best programmers I've known did not have degrees. But, if you don't have a degree, you'd best be able to prove that you know your stuff.

The other option is, of course, to get in at an entry level position and prove your chops there. Most people taking QA type jobs aren't technical at all, so if you have some ability, it's easy to get noticed. If that works out, though, you'll probably have to job-hop a few times to bring your salary up to the proper level.

Honestly, though, *not* having a degree is the tougher road. If you're already almost halfway through it, stick it out. Try to do projects in your own time to keep your sanity.

#20 The gaming industry is saturated with enough MBA's to bastardize it down to being just about like any other industry, or it soon will be. So approach it with the understanding of the sheople from Harvard Business School.

Degrees will usually benefit you. They will never harm you. I work in a technology field where my piers are split evenly between those with little to no education and extensive experience (20 years), and those who walk into the job with a PhD and a relative thesis.

Just remember one thing about education, you only gain what you take from it. Learn everything that you can, don't just read the book, go to class, and pass the tests. Actually look for alternate sources of knowledge on each subject you study. Learn MORE than the curriculum requires, not just what is required for the lambskin.

Another path that I think has a great track record of success, is networking. Getting to know people, and making yourself known. Participate extensively in forums and make sure that you are making it to every industry conference and user group meeting that you can. Participate in or start study/social groups with others in your degree plan. Oh... and don't forget to develop your skillset ;p Stay on top of what/where/when/how the pros are doing things.

Become a subject matter expert on a topic you are passionate about. Write papers on it and present the concepts at conferences. Every major presentation that I have ever given has resulted in a job offer.