Instant Action....and so it begins
by Derek Smart · in General Discussion · 10/11/2007 (10:00 am) · 114 replies
I just got a news bulletin which didn't leave me surprised in any way, shape or form.
No offense to anybody, but yes, what you are reading from the above bulletin is exactly what I've been saying all along and which most of you (too scared to utter a word) haven't. That being...
Whats old is new again (Or some nonsense like that) meaning that anyone hoping to see a new type of games cropping up on IA, other than the same style of games already found here, is going to be disappointed.
Yes Virginia, its just GG, with new paint (which looks great btw!!), a little bit more money and whatnot. Another player in the already crowded casual games market.
My guess is they'll lose money hand over fist and everything will head South once the bean counters at IAC start staring suspiciously at the bottomline.
.....or maybe they have access to another type of casual gamer waiting to be set free of the bonds of the existing crop.
However, Torque 2, does sound interesting. We'll see how much of a mess and disparity all these various Torque versions creates.
Bye!
No offense to anybody, but yes, what you are reading from the above bulletin is exactly what I've been saying all along and which most of you (too scared to utter a word) haven't. That being...
Whats old is new again (Or some nonsense like that) meaning that anyone hoping to see a new type of games cropping up on IA, other than the same style of games already found here, is going to be disappointed.
Yes Virginia, its just GG, with new paint (which looks great btw!!), a little bit more money and whatnot. Another player in the already crowded casual games market.
My guess is they'll lose money hand over fist and everything will head South once the bean counters at IAC start staring suspiciously at the bottomline.
.....or maybe they have access to another type of casual gamer waiting to be set free of the bonds of the existing crop.
However, Torque 2, does sound interesting. We'll see how much of a mess and disparity all these various Torque versions creates.
Bye!
#42
You're comparing Apples to Oranges.
I know how GameTap works because I have several games (including one exclusive being released next month and which Turner paid me a ton of money for - at least to feed a small country) on their service. Everyone knows that they - and others - use Exent as their backend technology. The game is streamed to your machine in chunks. So the size is irrelevant. But like Steam, your experience will vary depending on bandwidth, the size of the game, the style of the game, and which chunks you download first.
Delivering games across a browser, like what GG are pontificating about, is a totally different beast. Does it work? Sure. For small bite sized games. They're called casual games.
10/12/2007 (7:50 am)
@ MikeQuote:Has anyone looked at the size of some of the games on GameTap?
Cyan's Uru is 1.2 gb. That's right...GigaBytes. It's a downloadable, Playable game on GameTap. It's also not the only large game they have listed. Just becouse it's big, doesn't mean it isn't downloadable. It just means you, as the developer, is going to have to work harder at figureing out how to make it work.
You're comparing Apples to Oranges.
I know how GameTap works because I have several games (including one exclusive being released next month and which Turner paid me a ton of money for - at least to feed a small country) on their service. Everyone knows that they - and others - use Exent as their backend technology. The game is streamed to your machine in chunks. So the size is irrelevant. But like Steam, your experience will vary depending on bandwidth, the size of the game, the style of the game, and which chunks you download first.
Delivering games across a browser, like what GG are pontificating about, is a totally different beast. Does it work? Sure. For small bite sized games. They're called casual games.
#43
Excellent points there, but none of them have anything to do with IA because it is highly unlikely that GG have even considered procedurally generated content as part of their browser based gaming initiative.
10/12/2007 (7:52 am)
@ AaronExcellent points there, but none of them have anything to do with IA because it is highly unlikely that GG have even considered procedurally generated content as part of their browser based gaming initiative.
#44
There are many sites out there that provide hundreds of flash games for free. However, these games are predominantly 2D, single player, and have absolutely nothing in common with one another. Regardless, these sites are extremely popular and the people that run them make a lot of money. Why? The simple answer is advertising revenue.
What if, IA didn't charge you anything to play on their site and made money by selling advertising space to Google? IA would have the advantage of having truly 3D multi-player games that all integrated seamlessly into the IA web interface that allowed people to hang out, play, and chat with their friends in hundreds of different games? A percentage of the advertising revenues could be given to the game developers based on the popularity of their game. Kids from around the world would play for nothing, IA would make money, and developers would make money.
Why wouldn't that work?
10/12/2007 (8:00 am)
Actually, I think IA could work. Try this on for size,There are many sites out there that provide hundreds of flash games for free. However, these games are predominantly 2D, single player, and have absolutely nothing in common with one another. Regardless, these sites are extremely popular and the people that run them make a lot of money. Why? The simple answer is advertising revenue.
What if, IA didn't charge you anything to play on their site and made money by selling advertising space to Google? IA would have the advantage of having truly 3D multi-player games that all integrated seamlessly into the IA web interface that allowed people to hang out, play, and chat with their friends in hundreds of different games? A percentage of the advertising revenues could be given to the game developers based on the popularity of their game. Kids from around the world would play for nothing, IA would make money, and developers would make money.
Why wouldn't that work?
#45
Yes, that might work but, again, only if IA is purely focused on casual games.
In fact, yours is a brilliant idea IMO.
10/12/2007 (8:04 am)
@ JohnYes, that might work but, again, only if IA is purely focused on casual games.
In fact, yours is a brilliant idea IMO.
#46
Stop talking about things that are not relevant to the topic, and start/continue talking about the topic itself. My annoyance level with having to mod posts has leveled up, and I don't want to come back to continuations of that area of conversation please.
10/12/2007 (8:19 am)
Ok, guys, round 2 of modding complete.Stop talking about things that are not relevant to the topic, and start/continue talking about the topic itself. My annoyance level with having to mod posts has leveled up, and I don't want to come back to continuations of that area of conversation please.
#47
Already done. Torque 2 is using this internal build as it's base line.
Your underlying business goal for engine technology is different from GarageGame's business goal for engine technology, that's a simple fact. I fully agree that your strategy could be a good one, but the goal it would achieve isn't ours, so that type of strategy is not an appropriate one to meet our goals.
It is a good strategy for InstantAction, and in fact exactly what we are using. Interestingly, after doing exactly what you said (bringing Wideload on board, a highly successful company (Stubbs the Zombie, etc) with a huge track record, you then mention this as a failure instead of a success, so not sure where the logical conclusion of this portion of the discussion lies ;) Of course, Cyclomite, and of course MBU are just two of the games being developed by various studios, and as they reach the appropriate points in their cycles they will be announced as well.
Faulty assumption here: GG didn't do the Wii port. As has been stated, the port was initiated and developed by Pronto Games in partnership with GarageGames and Nintendo.
Couple of things on this:
--you're representing the "right now" mentality, intentionally or unintentionally--you want IA done right now, and you want all the information about IA available to you right now. You want to see it in instant action (pun intended), and instead we're providing information in waves as we approach the beta period, and then the publicly available period. We're using a different strategy--providing information in stages, and through multiple sources.
--You could have come to IGC and seen it yourself--an experience that isn't described well in text. Many members of the gaming press did come to IGC and saw it in action, and will be writing articles about their experiences--and we're not going to jump the gun and negate their articles by dumping all the information directly (although we're providing quite a bit of the information, right here).
(light humor intended) -- don't go to vegas with those instincts ;)
I guess we have different perspectives, but I can't see how you can call actual use of InstantAction by anyone who attended the conference as "no information forthcoming". Obviously you must mean "to people that didn't attend the conference", and as I said above, there have already been first stage articles in several game press services, and second stage articles are forthcoming. If you are unhappy about the speed of those articles, not much I can do to help with that. We're not a press service or PR firm, we're simply following what our PR firm tells us.
Actually, InstantAction does the exact same thing--but the developer controls which chunks are delivered in what order. It also does quite a bit more.
@John: that's just one of several models that are appropriate or useful--but just one. It also happens to be one that is already in use by several very large sites (Yahoo for example, to name just one).
10/12/2007 (8:42 am)
On to the responses :)Quote:
I can't think of ANY reason why all these five Torque engines can't be consolidated. With a good thought out plan, you could end up with, at the most two. One for PC (2D, 3D, X whatever) and one for the console du jour, e.g. XB360. And if there is enough interest, PS/3 and Wii*.
Already done. Torque 2 is using this internal build as it's base line.
Quote:
Then you start to heavily promote this new developer & licensing friendly Torque 2 (?) technology by actually showcasing games that run on it, mainstream developers using it etc. The idea would be that after identifying potential developers with feasible and appealing properties, you incubate them by licensing the engine to them at reasonable terms and signing them up to publish their game. Thats the first part of the battle plan. If the game ends up being rubbish, thats not your concern because the premise is on promoting the engine and what GG has to offer.
But no, that would all be far too easy, won't it?
Your underlying business goal for engine technology is different from GarageGame's business goal for engine technology, that's a simple fact. I fully agree that your strategy could be a good one, but the goal it would achieve isn't ours, so that type of strategy is not an appropriate one to meet our goals.
It is a good strategy for InstantAction, and in fact exactly what we are using. Interestingly, after doing exactly what you said (bringing Wideload on board, a highly successful company (Stubbs the Zombie, etc) with a huge track record, you then mention this as a failure instead of a success, so not sure where the logical conclusion of this portion of the discussion lies ;) Of course, Cyclomite, and of course MBU are just two of the games being developed by various studios, and as they reach the appropriate points in their cycles they will be announced as well.
Quote:
*Speaking of which, another case of bandwagon hopping is the Wii port. That, right there, is yet another clear indication that GG is looking directly at casual games, regardless of platform. The Wii has a capable browser and a rubbish backend btw. Good luck with that.
Faulty assumption here: GG didn't do the Wii port. As has been stated, the port was initiated and developed by Pronto Games in partnership with GarageGames and Nintendo.
Quote:
Quote:
There will be additional information coming from external press sources (we had quite a few present at IGC) that should hopefully help to illuminate and help define what games might fall into this gray area.
Oh, I get it. Instead of actually providing said information to the parties at large, we have to wait for it via press releases and junkets? ARE YOU GUYS FRIGGING KIDDING ME?!?!!
Couple of things on this:
--you're representing the "right now" mentality, intentionally or unintentionally--you want IA done right now, and you want all the information about IA available to you right now. You want to see it in instant action (pun intended), and instead we're providing information in waves as we approach the beta period, and then the publicly available period. We're using a different strategy--providing information in stages, and through multiple sources.
--You could have come to IGC and seen it yourself--an experience that isn't described well in text. Many members of the gaming press did come to IGC and saw it in action, and will be writing articles about their experiences--and we're not going to jump the gun and negate their articles by dumping all the information directly (although we're providing quite a bit of the information, right here).
Quote:
My guess it that.....
(1) you folks don't have a frigging clue what you're doing or how you're going to do it
(2) you're still trying to figure #1 out before you commit stuff to paper (or a forum post) that will end up coming to bite you back in the ass in the near future.
(light humor intended) -- don't go to vegas with those instincts ;)
Quote:
Hence the reason that - even with two days left to go to conference - there is still no information forthcoming. This despite ALL the promises and warranties made when this news first broke that this information would be forthcoming during the conference.
I guess we have different perspectives, but I can't see how you can call actual use of InstantAction by anyone who attended the conference as "no information forthcoming". Obviously you must mean "to people that didn't attend the conference", and as I said above, there have already been first stage articles in several game press services, and second stage articles are forthcoming. If you are unhappy about the speed of those articles, not much I can do to help with that. We're not a press service or PR firm, we're simply following what our PR firm tells us.
Quote:
The game is streamed to your machine in chunks. So the size is irrelevant. But like Steam, your experience will vary depending on bandwidth, the size of the game, the style of the game, and which chunks you download first.
Delivering games across a browser, like what GG are pontificating about, is a totally different beast. Does it work? Sure. For small bite sized games. They're called casual games.
Actually, InstantAction does the exact same thing--but the developer controls which chunks are delivered in what order. It also does quite a bit more.
@John: that's just one of several models that are appropriate or useful--but just one. It also happens to be one that is already in use by several very large sites (Yahoo for example, to name just one).
#48
Thanks for all the info, patience, and restraint. I don't see how you're able to keep it up sometimes, but you do an admirable job at it.
I have another question for you, though. Do you know if anyone at GG is looking into real-time procedural texture generation techniques similar to what Naked Sky and Allegorithmic are using on Roboblitz for the 360? I'm especially curious about how it might apply to the Instant Action initiative.
Thanks again.
10/12/2007 (9:09 am)
Stephen,Thanks for all the info, patience, and restraint. I don't see how you're able to keep it up sometimes, but you do an admirable job at it.
I have another question for you, though. Do you know if anyone at GG is looking into real-time procedural texture generation techniques similar to what Naked Sky and Allegorithmic are using on Roboblitz for the 360? I'm especially curious about how it might apply to the Instant Action initiative.
Thanks again.
#49
It's actually not needed with IA either (although I do admit it would be nice)--IA is a delivery/play platform, not a development environment. Any games that might use this type of tech would of course have smaller delivery size, but given (as I mentioned) that developers can direct the chunking and delivery order of whatever their package is through IA, it's not a critical thing either.
10/12/2007 (9:12 am)
I've heard the topic discussed on breaks very occasionally, but no it's not anything under active development, or even planned.It's actually not needed with IA either (although I do admit it would be nice)--IA is a delivery/play platform, not a development environment. Any games that might use this type of tech would of course have smaller delivery size, but given (as I mentioned) that developers can direct the chunking and delivery order of whatever their package is through IA, it's not a critical thing either.
#50
10/12/2007 (9:15 am)
That makes sense. Thank you for the response.
#51
A PS on this: what information exactly are you looking for? The exact purpose of this thread is to give you that information, immediately if possible, as soon as feasible if immediate isn't appropriate.
In my eyes, having direct communication (even if it is through forums) is better than having to read a pre-prepped set of press releases, but opinions may differ.
And on that note, I'm off to give a boot camp, so it won't be until this evening before I can follow up on additional questions. Please play nice until I get back :)
10/12/2007 (9:16 am)
Quote:
"no information forthcoming".
A PS on this: what information exactly are you looking for? The exact purpose of this thread is to give you that information, immediately if possible, as soon as feasible if immediate isn't appropriate.
In my eyes, having direct communication (even if it is through forums) is better than having to read a pre-prepped set of press releases, but opinions may differ.
And on that note, I'm off to give a boot camp, so it won't be until this evening before I can follow up on additional questions. Please play nice until I get back :)
#52
ah, well then. See? I'm not just a raving lunatic after all. Seriously, most of this [strategic] stuff just takes common sense.
I quite agree. This is not my train. I'm just standing on the sidelines waiting to see if there's a wreck in the making or not.
ack!!! Nowhere did I say that it was a failure!!! OK, let me clear this up some more and in as few words as possible.....
"The focus should be IA and what it is and does. Right now, no such focus nor info exists. Everything thus far is based on speculation. Heck, my guess is that even you GG guys are speculating on how this will all turn out. Thats a lack of focus, right there.
Saying that you're going to bridge the [gaming] gap and not do run-of-the-mill casual games....then you go and announce one such game, is exactly the reason most of us (at least those with more than two functioning brain cells) are anxiously awaiting the other shoe to drop and already predicting that IA is already DOA.
Signing Wideload doesn't mean squat in the general scheme of things. If anything, all that does is solidify the notion - and speculation - that the GG/IAC initiative, not unlike the original [failed] GG version, is going to be the same old thing with a different coat. In other words, either more mediocrity or one notch above.
If in fact the plan was to promote the future of a unified Torque as in Torque 2, my guess is - as a hardcore developer - that plan is coming undone with all this premature stuff; not to mention the entire premise that is IA. To wit: thus far, all the noise is on IA and casual games. Squat on Torque, nor its future. Look how long - and what (persistent badgering from yours truly) it took for you to even ack that Torque 2 actually had a plan. Again, like everything else, it could just be lip service based on long term goals, with IA being the focus in the near term (since IAC aren't going to sit around while you folks piss away with their money and not come up with something in terms of short term revenue).
WHY is there any need for disparity between IA and what Torque 2 is and/or should be?"
I already know all that, as it has been discussed before. My point was that stated clearly as to why I even mentioned it.
LOL!! I'm not a gambling man, but from where I'm sitting, my assumptions can't be that far off base. See what I said above about common sense logic.
Oh Stephen, come now, seriously, doesn't this line prove my point? ----> If you are unhappy about the speed of those articles, not much I can do to help with that. We're not a press service or PR firm, we're simply following what our PR firm tells us
PR firm?!?! Who the frack needs a PR firm to direct DEVELOPERS on what to tell other DEVELOPERS?!?! Thats just a cop out. PR firms are mostly for the dissemination of business related rhetoric; most of which are lined with the usual bullshit.
And I HAVE in fact emailed with several attendees and the general consensus is that the information about IA and the tech involved is fuzzy at best. In other words, the same stuff we've been reading online.
Q.E.D.
10/12/2007 (10:48 am)
@ StephenQuote:Already done. Torque 2 is using this internal build as it's base line.
ah, well then. See? I'm not just a raving lunatic after all. Seriously, most of this [strategic] stuff just takes common sense.
Quote:Your underlying business goal for engine technology is different from GarageGame's business goal for engine technology, that's a simple fact. I fully agree that your strategy could be a good one, but the goal it would achieve isn't ours, so that type of strategy is not an appropriate one to meet our goals.
I quite agree. This is not my train. I'm just standing on the sidelines waiting to see if there's a wreck in the making or not.
Quote:
It is a good strategy for InstantAction, and in fact exactly what we are using. Interestingly, after doing exactly what you said (bringing Wideload on board, a highly successful company (Stubbs the Zombie, etc) with a huge track record, you then mention this as a failure instead of a success, so not sure where the logical conclusion of this portion of the discussion lies ;) Of course, Cyclomite, and of course MBU are just two of the games being developed by various studios, and as they reach the appropriate points in their cycles they will be announced as well.
ack!!! Nowhere did I say that it was a failure!!! OK, let me clear this up some more and in as few words as possible.....
"The focus should be IA and what it is and does. Right now, no such focus nor info exists. Everything thus far is based on speculation. Heck, my guess is that even you GG guys are speculating on how this will all turn out. Thats a lack of focus, right there.
Saying that you're going to bridge the [gaming] gap and not do run-of-the-mill casual games....then you go and announce one such game, is exactly the reason most of us (at least those with more than two functioning brain cells) are anxiously awaiting the other shoe to drop and already predicting that IA is already DOA.
Signing Wideload doesn't mean squat in the general scheme of things. If anything, all that does is solidify the notion - and speculation - that the GG/IAC initiative, not unlike the original [failed] GG version, is going to be the same old thing with a different coat. In other words, either more mediocrity or one notch above.
If in fact the plan was to promote the future of a unified Torque as in Torque 2, my guess is - as a hardcore developer - that plan is coming undone with all this premature stuff; not to mention the entire premise that is IA. To wit: thus far, all the noise is on IA and casual games. Squat on Torque, nor its future. Look how long - and what (persistent badgering from yours truly) it took for you to even ack that Torque 2 actually had a plan. Again, like everything else, it could just be lip service based on long term goals, with IA being the focus in the near term (since IAC aren't going to sit around while you folks piss away with their money and not come up with something in terms of short term revenue).
WHY is there any need for disparity between IA and what Torque 2 is and/or should be?"
Quote:Faulty assumption here: GG didn't do the Wii port. As has been stated, the port was initiated and developed by Pronto Games in partnership with GarageGames and Nintendo.
I already know all that, as it has been discussed before. My point was that stated clearly as to why I even mentioned it.
Quote:(light humor intended) -- don't go to vegas with those instincts ;)
LOL!! I'm not a gambling man, but from where I'm sitting, my assumptions can't be that far off base. See what I said above about common sense logic.
Quote:I guess we have different perspectives, but I can't see how you can call actual use of InstantAction by anyone who attended the conference as "no information forthcoming". Obviously you must mean "to people that didn't attend the conference", and as I said above, there have already been first stage articles in several game press services, and second stage articles are forthcoming. If you are unhappy about the speed of those articles, not much I can do to help with that. We're not a press service or PR firm, we're simply following what our PR firm tells us.
Oh Stephen, come now, seriously, doesn't this line prove my point? ----> If you are unhappy about the speed of those articles, not much I can do to help with that. We're not a press service or PR firm, we're simply following what our PR firm tells us
PR firm?!?! Who the frack needs a PR firm to direct DEVELOPERS on what to tell other DEVELOPERS?!?! Thats just a cop out. PR firms are mostly for the dissemination of business related rhetoric; most of which are lined with the usual bullshit.
And I HAVE in fact emailed with several attendees and the general consensus is that the information about IA and the tech involved is fuzzy at best. In other words, the same stuff we've been reading online.
Quote:Actually, InstantAction does the exact same thing--but the developer controls which chunks are delivered in what order. It also does quite a bit more.
Q.E.D.
#53
Derek Man you are one interesting character ;)
10/12/2007 (1:42 pm)
Interesting discussions and reading, plz do continue!Derek Man you are one interesting character ;)
#54
Actually, there is quite an extensive post on Torque 2 in the private forums. We respect and value our community, and wanted to fill them in one the details and provide the opportunity to ask questions before we start discussing it in general access areas. I'm sure that many in this thread may have specific questions as well--feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer :)
10/12/2007 (5:20 pm)
For the record, Cyclomite isn't even near a "casual" game--I watched quite a few hard core gamers walk away in shame because they couldn't hang ;) For that matter, MBU isn't a pure casual game either--although I do respect the fact you disagree.Quote:
Squat on Torque, nor its future. Look how long - and what (persistent badgering from yours truly) it took for you to even ack that Torque 2 actually had a plan.
Actually, there is quite an extensive post on Torque 2 in the private forums. We respect and value our community, and wanted to fill them in one the details and provide the opportunity to ask questions before we start discussing it in general access areas. I'm sure that many in this thread may have specific questions as well--feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer :)
#55
been to before. I think I was really expecting to learn a lot more. Workshops
teaching how to do this or that with the engine would have been great, or adding
the boot camps to the "Conference" schedule so I knew before I got there that
the (normally $2,500) boot camp courses were going to be free this weekend
for attendees. All in all the conference seemed more like a press conference.
I was kind of disappointed that the only things I really learned were what the
future of GG and Torque were, and even that was somewhat limited. I really
could have found all of it out from home.
Now, having said that, I did get to see IA in action with Marble Blast Ultra. The
features of IA were very slick, and unique to the web gaming market. (the parts
of it that I've explored anyway.)
I don't know if I would call Marble Blast a "casual" game. I don't think it quite fits
in the same category with such things as Bejeweled and Zuma. Gameplay over a
LAN was very smooth. It will be interesting to see what happens with 8-10 players
in it over the net who will have anything from an AOL dialup to a OC3 connection.
In the end, IA is a publishing venue. If you have a game that fits within the criteria
that IA has in mind, whatever that criteria is, and you want to get it out there
then IA might just be one route to take a look at.
Will it bite GG in the butt if IA fails? I don't know. I know nothing of the particulars of their
deal, and don't really need to know. I have enough on my plate already. In my mind, as
long as GG keeps moving forward with an affordable engine that runs on the PC I'm a
happy camper. The fact that I can take my game from the PC and port it to a console, and
to a web based venue if I want to, that's just icing on the cake and allows my game more
possible exposure than it would get without those things.
Torque 2 will be fantastic. More organized directory structure, coded in components so that
you can add your own stuff, or rip out the things your game doesn't need without worrying
about killing the entire engine. It will be much simpler to use, and hopefully they have someone
working full time on doing nothing but writing the docs along the way.
Since the release for Torque 2 is said to be "Sometime 2008", don't plan on porting your project
over soon. I'll be finishing my current project with TGE 1.5.2, and then maybe looking at T2 for
the next project.
@Derek,
The fact is none of us really know what's going to happen with IA. Like many things in the
business world, it's a crap shoot. You throw the dice, and take your chances.
10/12/2007 (8:10 pm)
I attended the conference. I have to admit, it wasn't like any conference I'd everbeen to before. I think I was really expecting to learn a lot more. Workshops
teaching how to do this or that with the engine would have been great, or adding
the boot camps to the "Conference" schedule so I knew before I got there that
the (normally $2,500) boot camp courses were going to be free this weekend
for attendees. All in all the conference seemed more like a press conference.
I was kind of disappointed that the only things I really learned were what the
future of GG and Torque were, and even that was somewhat limited. I really
could have found all of it out from home.
Now, having said that, I did get to see IA in action with Marble Blast Ultra. The
features of IA were very slick, and unique to the web gaming market. (the parts
of it that I've explored anyway.)
I don't know if I would call Marble Blast a "casual" game. I don't think it quite fits
in the same category with such things as Bejeweled and Zuma. Gameplay over a
LAN was very smooth. It will be interesting to see what happens with 8-10 players
in it over the net who will have anything from an AOL dialup to a OC3 connection.
In the end, IA is a publishing venue. If you have a game that fits within the criteria
that IA has in mind, whatever that criteria is, and you want to get it out there
then IA might just be one route to take a look at.
Will it bite GG in the butt if IA fails? I don't know. I know nothing of the particulars of their
deal, and don't really need to know. I have enough on my plate already. In my mind, as
long as GG keeps moving forward with an affordable engine that runs on the PC I'm a
happy camper. The fact that I can take my game from the PC and port it to a console, and
to a web based venue if I want to, that's just icing on the cake and allows my game more
possible exposure than it would get without those things.
Torque 2 will be fantastic. More organized directory structure, coded in components so that
you can add your own stuff, or rip out the things your game doesn't need without worrying
about killing the entire engine. It will be much simpler to use, and hopefully they have someone
working full time on doing nothing but writing the docs along the way.
Since the release for Torque 2 is said to be "Sometime 2008", don't plan on porting your project
over soon. I'll be finishing my current project with TGE 1.5.2, and then maybe looking at T2 for
the next project.
@Derek,
The fact is none of us really know what's going to happen with IA. Like many things in the
business world, it's a crap shoot. You throw the dice, and take your chances.
#56
Yep, as I posted earlier, thats the general consensus shared among others with whom I have spoken to.
Marble Blast is a casual game. Period. End of story. Anyone who says otherwise, has no clue how game genres and classes are differentiated. In fact, everyone should read this Gamasutra article.
Yes, if they do pull it off, it would be quite a coup indeed. But, given the nature of the beast, I wouldn't count on seeing a finished product before mid to late 2009 at the earliest. There is far too much [useless] legacy stuff in Torque as it is. Not to mention the work (and bugs that are going to be spawned) having to synergise all the various platform (TGE, TGEA, TX etc) versions into a unified Torque 2 framework.
Absolutely.
ah, right. Private forums.
OK, I'll bite:
1. What exactly is the plan for Torque 2, as it relates to the existing platform versions?
2. How long has it been in development?
3. When is it expected to go into Beta?
4. When it is expected to be released to the masses?
5. How does it tie into IA and the publishing aspects therein?
6. Do you guys plan on actually hiring someone to do proper and complete docs for it?
10/13/2007 (9:57 am)
@ KevinQuote:All in all the conference seemed more like a press conference. I was kind of disappointed that the only things I really learned were what the future of GG and Torque were, and even that was somewhat limited. I really could have found all of it out from home.
Yep, as I posted earlier, thats the general consensus shared among others with whom I have spoken to.
Marble Blast is a casual game. Period. End of story. Anyone who says otherwise, has no clue how game genres and classes are differentiated. In fact, everyone should read this Gamasutra article.
Quote:Torque 2 will be fantastic. More organized directory structure, coded in components so that
you can add your own stuff, or rip out the things your game doesn't need without worrying
about killing the entire engine. It will be much simpler to use, and hopefully they have someone
working full time on doing nothing but writing the docs along the way.
Yes, if they do pull it off, it would be quite a coup indeed. But, given the nature of the beast, I wouldn't count on seeing a finished product before mid to late 2009 at the earliest. There is far too much [useless] legacy stuff in Torque as it is. Not to mention the work (and bugs that are going to be spawned) having to synergise all the various platform (TGE, TGEA, TX etc) versions into a unified Torque 2 framework.
Quote:The fact is none of us really know what's going to happen with IA. Like many things in the
business world, it's a crap shoot. You throw the dice, and take your chances.
Absolutely.
Quote:Actually, there is quite an extensive post on Torque 2 in the private forums. We respect and value our community, and wanted to fill them in one the details and provide the opportunity to ask questions before we start discussing it in general access areas.
ah, right. Private forums.
Quote:I'm sure that many in this thread may have specific questions as well--feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer :)
OK, I'll bite:
1. What exactly is the plan for Torque 2, as it relates to the existing platform versions?
2. How long has it been in development?
3. When is it expected to go into Beta?
4. When it is expected to be released to the masses?
5. How does it tie into IA and the publishing aspects therein?
6. Do you guys plan on actually hiring someone to do proper and complete docs for it?
#57
10/13/2007 (9:59 am)
Just to let you folks know that it appears as if GG are actively trying to ban me from posting. Its anyone's guess why. But if I stop posting or disappear, its because I have been silenced. Not sure why it hasn't already happened, but my guess is that its probably because I have cookies turned on and I haven't cleared my browser since their last [failed] attempt at banning (for no plausible reason) me. 
#58
10/13/2007 (11:11 am)
Why do you think they are banning you? Actually if they had banned you, more than likely it would be IP based and if its simply your account credentials, the cookie still has to verify itself when you try to access the pages, so that would have nothing to do with it. If your password is changed, then it wouldnt match the information stored in the cookie and thus not authenticate you.
#59
that Marble Blast Ultra is in fact not a casual game.
Here's why.
- All of the casual games mentioned in the article are 2D
- All of the casual games mentioned in the article are single player (most anyway)
- None of the casual games mentioned in the article require that much skill
My own definition of a casual game would basically be,
"A simple single player game, requiring little or no skill or thought. Just something
to do for a few minutes to eleviate boredom."
MBU on the other hand is 3D, multiplayer, and as I can certainly attest to from
my experience on Thursday at the conference, does indeed require a fair amount
of skill to not end up in last place. In fact, I might even call MBU an MMOFPS. Your
character being a ball rather than a person, or orc, or battle droid or something
like that.
Of course I don't want to sit here and argue the point. No sense in continuing to
beat the dead horse. Just in my opinion, MBU isn't a casual game.
Likewise, IA is and will be capable of more than just casual games. I look forward
to the beginning of the beta to see what they have in mind next.
In the mean time, I have a game to write. :-)
Derek,
If they boot you, it's because your posts are purposefully combative. Making statements
such as,
"Marble Blast is a casual game. Period. End of story. Anyone who says otherwise, has no
clue how game genres and classes are differentiated."
That's purposefully combative, and an obvious attempt at getting someone ticked off. You
can be arrogant, you can be high and mighty, you can pretend you're the video game GOD,
just don't be surprised at the results when you actively post negativity in such a combative
manner. Tone it down, keep it civil, and accept that others are allowed to have their own
opinion.
10/13/2007 (11:22 am)
Ok, I read the article you supplied the link to, and that just solidified my opinionthat Marble Blast Ultra is in fact not a casual game.
Here's why.
- All of the casual games mentioned in the article are 2D
- All of the casual games mentioned in the article are single player (most anyway)
- None of the casual games mentioned in the article require that much skill
My own definition of a casual game would basically be,
"A simple single player game, requiring little or no skill or thought. Just something
to do for a few minutes to eleviate boredom."
MBU on the other hand is 3D, multiplayer, and as I can certainly attest to from
my experience on Thursday at the conference, does indeed require a fair amount
of skill to not end up in last place. In fact, I might even call MBU an MMOFPS. Your
character being a ball rather than a person, or orc, or battle droid or something
like that.
Of course I don't want to sit here and argue the point. No sense in continuing to
beat the dead horse. Just in my opinion, MBU isn't a casual game.
Likewise, IA is and will be capable of more than just casual games. I look forward
to the beginning of the beta to see what they have in mind next.
In the mean time, I have a game to write. :-)
Derek,
If they boot you, it's because your posts are purposefully combative. Making statements
such as,
"Marble Blast is a casual game. Period. End of story. Anyone who says otherwise, has no
clue how game genres and classes are differentiated."
That's purposefully combative, and an obvious attempt at getting someone ticked off. You
can be arrogant, you can be high and mighty, you can pretend you're the video game GOD,
just don't be surprised at the results when you actively post negativity in such a combative
manner. Tone it down, keep it civil, and accept that others are allowed to have their own
opinion.
#60
If someone made a 3D Tetris or Breakout type of game, would it no longer be casual? What if it was a multiplayer 3D Tetris-style game?
To me, "casual" merely implies that it's a single-session game (no saving and returning to continue at a later time) that can be played, start to finish, in just a few minutes. Of course, if the player happens to be particularly skilled or practiced at it, and the game design allows it, a person could potentially play longer, but that's not the point. Like those Donkey Kong guys in the movie -- they play a long time because of their skill, but it's still a casual (coin-op) game.
Given that, I would classify MBU as a casual game. A really nice one.
10/13/2007 (11:45 am)
Honestly, I don't think whether a game is classified as "casual" should (or does) have anything to do with it being single or multiplayer, 2D or 3D, or the amount of skill or thought required.If someone made a 3D Tetris or Breakout type of game, would it no longer be casual? What if it was a multiplayer 3D Tetris-style game?
To me, "casual" merely implies that it's a single-session game (no saving and returning to continue at a later time) that can be played, start to finish, in just a few minutes. Of course, if the player happens to be particularly skilled or practiced at it, and the game design allows it, a person could potentially play longer, but that's not the point. Like those Donkey Kong guys in the movie -- they play a long time because of their skill, but it's still a casual (coin-op) game.
Given that, I would classify MBU as a casual game. A really nice one.
Derek Smart
@ Stephen
Stephen, actually you - and everyone else back there who agrees with this train of thought - are wrong. Period. End of story.
The divide between casual and hard core games is in fact a pure Black & White divide, unless you can actually show me one single game - in either genre - that
(1) your or your ilk have developed
(2) that proves otherwise
Looks, anyone can say and write anything. The proof - as they say - is in the pudding. Right now, the pudding isn't even in the kitchen, let alone on the stove and boiling over.
That Grey area you point to is where mediocrity, misplaced expectations and lofty - and unattainable - goals reside.
If this were my money, re-inventing the wheel would be out of the question. Consolidating the engines and doing proper publishing (through marketing and financial support), sales etc would be the focus.
If I were even in this ballpark, my first order of business would be to fire every non-essential personnel and start off with a clean slate with the Torque engineers, hire a PR and marketing firm, hire a sales firm (to worry about dealings with retailer and e-tailers etc.
The core of my business would be to strengthen the technologies (new or old) and have a clear focus of where we want to be in at least two years.
There is no feasible reason why developing and publishing top tier games should take millions. Its only that way because
(1) publishers are wasteful
(2) developers are - largely - incompetent when it comes to money and time management.
And thats where the strength and appeal and Torque should lie. THAT right there is the proverbial gap. This was how you folks started out and was under that premise that guys like myself got interested. Somewhere along the way - and no less than five fricking engines later - you guys lost your way. All the way to being bought out. There is a reason for that. Its called failure.
I can't think of ANY reason why all these five Torque engines can't be consolidated. With a good thought out plan, you could end up with, at the most two. One for PC (2D, 3D, X whatever) and one for the console du jour, e.g. XB360. And if there is enough interest, PS/3 and Wii*.
Then you start to heavily promote this new developer & licensing friendly Torque 2 (?) technology by actually showcasing games that run on it, mainstream developers using it etc. The idea would be that after identifying potential developers with feasible and appealing properties, you incubate them by licensing the engine to them at reasonable terms and signing them up to publish their game. Thats the first part of the battle plan. If the game ends up being rubbish, thats not your concern because the premise is on promoting the engine and what GG has to offer.
But no, that would all be far too easy, won't it?
Do you know why Epic bought out the Reality Engine? No? Go read up on it. And those guys didn't ship a single game before that. It was all based on work done by developers who they incubated and who showcased their work. All of a sudden, you had an engine that would - easily - beat the pants off Unreal3 in terms of both technology and pricing. And these were a group of previously unknown developers with zero marketing dollars. It was all in the tech and guys like myself, hopped aboard.
*Speaking of which, another case of bandwagon hopping is the Wii port. That, right there, is yet another clear indication that GG is looking directly at casual games, regardless of platform. The Wii has a capable browser and a rubbish backend btw. Good luck with that.
Oh, I get it. Instead of actually providing said information to the parties at large, we have to wait for it via press releases and junkets? ARE YOU GUYS FRIGGING KIDDING ME?!?!!
Right. And how has that worked out? Oh, thats right. It didn't. Why? due to lack of focus.
Well, thats good to know. I hope it works out.
I quite agree, but nobody is asking about business strategies. Everyone (well at least those who know why they're here) is interested in the technologies and the future. Nobody gives a toss about business strategies. Why would we?
No, its not just a push-off, it is an insult. Joining the Beta doesn't tell you squat, does it? Nope.
My guess it that.....
(1) you folks don't have a frigging clue what you're doing or how you're going to do it
(2) you're still trying to figure #1 out before you commit stuff to paper (or a forum post) that will end up coming to bite you back in the ass in the near future.
Hence the reason that - even with two days left to go to conference - there is still no information forthcoming. This despite ALL the promises and warranties made when this news first broke that this information would be forthcoming during the conference. All we've seen so far is the announcement of - *gasp* a casual game and with GG/IAC riding on the coattails of a new studio formed by a named developer. Which, I might add, doesn't amount to squat because a lot of splinter devs have started studios which have either failed miserably or release products which failed.
Instead of making IA about IA, you guys are - foolishly - pushing a game which, for all intent and purposes, doesn't even use ANY new - or old - GG tech, let alone whatever it is you guys are still dreaming up for the IA backend.
This is the first round of mistakes.
[continued]