Instant Action....and so it begins
by Derek Smart · in General Discussion · 10/11/2007 (10:00 am) · 114 replies
I just got a news bulletin which didn't leave me surprised in any way, shape or form.
No offense to anybody, but yes, what you are reading from the above bulletin is exactly what I've been saying all along and which most of you (too scared to utter a word) haven't. That being...
Whats old is new again (Or some nonsense like that) meaning that anyone hoping to see a new type of games cropping up on IA, other than the same style of games already found here, is going to be disappointed.
Yes Virginia, its just GG, with new paint (which looks great btw!!), a little bit more money and whatnot. Another player in the already crowded casual games market.
My guess is they'll lose money hand over fist and everything will head South once the bean counters at IAC start staring suspiciously at the bottomline.
.....or maybe they have access to another type of casual gamer waiting to be set free of the bonds of the existing crop.
However, Torque 2, does sound interesting. We'll see how much of a mess and disparity all these various Torque versions creates.
Bye!
No offense to anybody, but yes, what you are reading from the above bulletin is exactly what I've been saying all along and which most of you (too scared to utter a word) haven't. That being...
Whats old is new again (Or some nonsense like that) meaning that anyone hoping to see a new type of games cropping up on IA, other than the same style of games already found here, is going to be disappointed.
Yes Virginia, its just GG, with new paint (which looks great btw!!), a little bit more money and whatnot. Another player in the already crowded casual games market.
My guess is they'll lose money hand over fist and everything will head South once the bean counters at IAC start staring suspiciously at the bottomline.
.....or maybe they have access to another type of casual gamer waiting to be set free of the bonds of the existing crop.
However, Torque 2, does sound interesting. We'll see how much of a mess and disparity all these various Torque versions creates.
Bye!
#22
I had several chances to play MBU on IA, and have to say that it feels like a definite step forward in terms of web-based gaming. It doesn't feel like the usual casual portal. How far that step extends really remains to be seen. But with the size of the levels and consistent player experience and chunked asset design, it worked very well and I could see there being a FPS done with IA.
But regardless, it should be interesting to see where it leads in the coming months as more developers are moved into the IA fold and what types of games make the cut.
@Mike Rowley
Torque 2 is not based on TorqueX. The component model was prototyped with TorqueX, but Torque 2 is not based on C#, XNA, or the TorqueX engine. It is a complete refactoring of the engine technology towards component based engine management. As Clark mentioned in the roundtable on Torque 2, it will not be C# and it will not be managed code. It is a core engine with extensible component architecture. That way your team can drop in new features from third party codebases and tools without dealing with a million interconnected systems as is currently the case.
10/11/2007 (5:31 pm)
One of the things that I found to be a stroke of genius in IA and one of those community "duh's" was the ability to move your entire party (or select members) to another game. Tired to bumping marbles, move your party of friends on to a new title and the whole party moves. It automates all of the e-mailing, IM'ing, etc for moving around traditional portals/gamespaces. It's a small thing, but from a player standpoint (if you play games with the same group of people often...and a number of games), it is one of those convenience "duh" moments that makes you realize that every other portal and gamespace should have been doing it from day 1. It's a small feature, but a really cool one; and one feature that I think will be replicated by the competition quickly.I had several chances to play MBU on IA, and have to say that it feels like a definite step forward in terms of web-based gaming. It doesn't feel like the usual casual portal. How far that step extends really remains to be seen. But with the size of the levels and consistent player experience and chunked asset design, it worked very well and I could see there being a FPS done with IA.
But regardless, it should be interesting to see where it leads in the coming months as more developers are moved into the IA fold and what types of games make the cut.
@Mike Rowley
Torque 2 is not based on TorqueX. The component model was prototyped with TorqueX, but Torque 2 is not based on C#, XNA, or the TorqueX engine. It is a complete refactoring of the engine technology towards component based engine management. As Clark mentioned in the roundtable on Torque 2, it will not be C# and it will not be managed code. It is a core engine with extensible component architecture. That way your team can drop in new features from third party codebases and tools without dealing with a million interconnected systems as is currently the case.
#23
Unless they've somehow automagically found new and inventive ways of slicing bread, I seriously doubt it. Trust me, there isn't a single publishing/distribution angle that hasn't been tried - and failed spectacularly. I should know....I've seen pretty much all of them. The bottom line is that you end up with a hybrid of the legacy model in which, well, the publishers make all the money and if you're lucky or not one people generally piss around with (like me, who just sues them and moves on), you make some money for your troubles.
My guess is that, for as long as GG folks have been around, it is highly unlikely that they'd come up with anything that we haven'nt already heard or. Of course, if you're a n00b looking to jump on the bandwagon, you'd sign anything. So, it doesn;t make any difference regardless, since you won't know any better.
@ Tom Feni
Well said Tom, well said.
Oh, but let the record show that I didn't bring my Wiki (no, I didn't create it either, nor the Moby Games entry) into this. Chip did. So, rag on him plz :)
@ Tom Perry
You quite clearly weren't paying attention then. When was the last time you saw the words hobby and money used in the same sentence? Obviously GG were out to make money in some form or another. I don't think Jesus H. Christ (nor Ho Lee Cow for that matter) died and left the GG founders a pot of Gold so they could just toil away, month after month, in order to give hobbyist's free stuff in perpetuity.
I don't want to be anyone's mascot. Thanks though. I'm touched and currently tingling in places I didn't know I had.
(mod edit: removed response to a previously edited comment)
The beauty of online anonymity and obscurity is the lack of accountability, causality and respect.
In the online society, fraught with the likes of people you wouldn't normally glance at in public, let alone acknowledge their very existence if they were on fire and you had to piss on them to put it out, the likes of anti-social misfits tend to be the bane of any community. Such people like to put others down in order to feel good about themselves. Nothing that a cocktail of potent drugs or a syringe couldn't fix, but who cares anyway?
Yes, so I'm arrogant. What of it? Your inference is one of subjectiveness and borne on the wings of bias. Do grow up; name calling is so yesterday.
10/11/2007 (5:55 pm)
@ RobertQuote:Because the publishing setup for InstantAction.com is so developer friendly that it would be stupid not to switch.
Unless they've somehow automagically found new and inventive ways of slicing bread, I seriously doubt it. Trust me, there isn't a single publishing/distribution angle that hasn't been tried - and failed spectacularly. I should know....I've seen pretty much all of them. The bottom line is that you end up with a hybrid of the legacy model in which, well, the publishers make all the money and if you're lucky or not one people generally piss around with (like me, who just sues them and moves on), you make some money for your troubles.
My guess is that, for as long as GG folks have been around, it is highly unlikely that they'd come up with anything that we haven'nt already heard or. Of course, if you're a n00b looking to jump on the bandwagon, you'd sign anything. So, it doesn;t make any difference regardless, since you won't know any better.
@ Tom Feni
Well said Tom, well said.
Oh, but let the record show that I didn't bring my Wiki (no, I didn't create it either, nor the Moby Games entry) into this. Chip did. So, rag on him plz :)
@ Tom Perry
Quote:I was under the assumption that GG wanted to provide low cost tools for the hobbiest and indie, or have I got it wrong... ;)
You quite clearly weren't paying attention then. When was the last time you saw the words hobby and money used in the same sentence? Obviously GG were out to make money in some form or another. I don't think Jesus H. Christ (nor Ho Lee Cow for that matter) died and left the GG founders a pot of Gold so they could just toil away, month after month, in order to give hobbyist's free stuff in perpetuity.
Quote:Either way Derek as much as your experiance and success give you credit, and you would undoubtably be a useful member of the community,
I don't want to be anyone's mascot. Thanks though. I'm touched and currently tingling in places I didn't know I had.
(mod edit: removed response to a previously edited comment)
The beauty of online anonymity and obscurity is the lack of accountability, causality and respect.
In the online society, fraught with the likes of people you wouldn't normally glance at in public, let alone acknowledge their very existence if they were on fire and you had to piss on them to put it out, the likes of anti-social misfits tend to be the bane of any community. Such people like to put others down in order to feel good about themselves. Nothing that a cocktail of potent drugs or a syringe couldn't fix, but who cares anyway?
Yes, so I'm arrogant. What of it? Your inference is one of subjectiveness and borne on the wings of bias. Do grow up; name calling is so yesterday.
#24
Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? You come in here to post mostly negative comments about GG and the products they offer.........your guilty of what your preaching about. If you post negative comments about any subject, you gotta expect some backlash from it. Especially from people that are passionate about said subject.
I don't know you anymore than you know me, that being said, I'll show you respect in your house, as long as you show respect in mine. The problem here is...all I've seen you post on these forums are rants about how this will never work in your eyes, nothing but negativity. That in itself is a show of disrespect.
10/11/2007 (6:21 pm)
@Derek-Quote:In the online society, fraught with the likes of people you wouldn't normally glance at in public, let alone acknowledge their very existence if they were on fire and you had to piss on them to put it out, the likes of anti-social misfits tend to be the bane of any community. Such people like to put others down in order to feel good about themselves. Nothing that a cocktail of potent drugs or a syringe couldn't fix, but who cares anyway?
Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? You come in here to post mostly negative comments about GG and the products they offer.........your guilty of what your preaching about. If you post negative comments about any subject, you gotta expect some backlash from it. Especially from people that are passionate about said subject.
I don't know you anymore than you know me, that being said, I'll show you respect in your house, as long as you show respect in mine. The problem here is...all I've seen you post on these forums are rants about how this will never work in your eyes, nothing but negativity. That in itself is a show of disrespect.
#25
Truer words could never be spoken, Derek.
10/11/2007 (6:21 pm)
Quote:In the online society, fraught with the likes of people you wouldn't normally glance at in public, let alone acknowledge their very existence if they were on fire and you had to piss on them to put it out, the likes of anti-social misfits tend to be the bane of any community. Such people like to put others down in order to feel good about themselves. Nothing that a cocktail of potent drugs or a syringe couldn't fix, but who cares anyway?
Truer words could never be spoken, Derek.
#26
I am currently working with my wife and brother on 4 commercial contracts right now that utilize various Torque technology.
1. Dual Drive XTreme - A clinical racing game for bio-feedback using Torque Game Engine.
2. 2D Multiplayer Sport - A 2D sport game using Torque Game Builder. The artwork on this game is being done by artists who have worked on animated tv and movies such as The Simpson's Movie and Futurama. I'm not allowed to share the name.
3. 2D Platformer - A 2D retro platformer using Torque Game Builder. I'm not allowed to share the name.
4. 3D AAA Third Person Action - This game is Heavenly Sword/God of War type game using Torque Advanced. Design and Art and Sound by a group of game and movie industry vets. I am not allowed to share the name. But this game will kick utter ass.
** 5. Scientific Educational Game - We are waiting this week to find out for sure if we are on this contract or not. Looks 99%. This is a 3D scientific educational game using Torque Game Engine. This one I'm very excited about due to getting to work with National Geographic.
So, (mod rephrase) stop talking about how Torque can't be used for games. I'm very happy to hear about how GG is improving Torque, but even as is, Torque is great.
You can complain all you want about how GG or Torque doesn't do what YOU want. But you are (mod rephrase ) wrong saying it isn't being done. I also know that Boeing is using Torque for simulations. You just don't know what you are talking about.
(mod snip)
EDIT: I'm adding the following, but have not changed a word of the above.
You come to the community forums when you have an occasional whim. You contribute zero. You only complain... about a company and technology that YOU DON'T work with or use. And you are supposed to be the mature industry veteran.
I have only been apart of this community since 2003. I have had my complaints and I've said shit I shouldn't say, but I was just a noob then. I had no real experience with GG or Torque. Now that I have, I am happy to say that I have found GG and Torque to be amazing to work with especially considering the lack of resources they have had for years.
It's one thing when a kid is frustrated about struggling to learn and use a new tech. It's one thing when someone at GG pisses you off because they are having a bad day. But it's another thing for someone like you to show up (mod rephrase) effectively just piss people off.
10/11/2007 (6:29 pm)
Derek Smart,I am currently working with my wife and brother on 4 commercial contracts right now that utilize various Torque technology.
1. Dual Drive XTreme - A clinical racing game for bio-feedback using Torque Game Engine.
2. 2D Multiplayer Sport - A 2D sport game using Torque Game Builder. The artwork on this game is being done by artists who have worked on animated tv and movies such as The Simpson's Movie and Futurama. I'm not allowed to share the name.
3. 2D Platformer - A 2D retro platformer using Torque Game Builder. I'm not allowed to share the name.
4. 3D AAA Third Person Action - This game is Heavenly Sword/God of War type game using Torque Advanced. Design and Art and Sound by a group of game and movie industry vets. I am not allowed to share the name. But this game will kick utter ass.
** 5. Scientific Educational Game - We are waiting this week to find out for sure if we are on this contract or not. Looks 99%. This is a 3D scientific educational game using Torque Game Engine. This one I'm very excited about due to getting to work with National Geographic.
So, (mod rephrase) stop talking about how Torque can't be used for games. I'm very happy to hear about how GG is improving Torque, but even as is, Torque is great.
You can complain all you want about how GG or Torque doesn't do what YOU want. But you are (mod rephrase ) wrong saying it isn't being done. I also know that Boeing is using Torque for simulations. You just don't know what you are talking about.
(mod snip)
EDIT: I'm adding the following, but have not changed a word of the above.
You come to the community forums when you have an occasional whim. You contribute zero. You only complain... about a company and technology that YOU DON'T work with or use. And you are supposed to be the mature industry veteran.
I have only been apart of this community since 2003. I have had my complaints and I've said shit I shouldn't say, but I was just a noob then. I had no real experience with GG or Torque. Now that I have, I am happy to say that I have found GG and Torque to be amazing to work with especially considering the lack of resources they have had for years.
It's one thing when a kid is frustrated about struggling to learn and use a new tech. It's one thing when someone at GG pisses you off because they are having a bad day. But it's another thing for someone like you to show up (mod rephrase) effectively just piss people off.
#27
Will be responding to points in turn that I felt haven't been adequately covered yet (thanks David!), so please stand by :)
Regarding the modding: everyone is entitled to their opinions, as long as they stay collectively professional and emotionally stable. I'm not going to allow this thread to degrade into personal confrontations of any sort, so please don't bother trying--you'll just be frustrating me as I mod again and again, after a long week of IGC, and 2 more days to go!
10/11/2007 (6:51 pm)
Ok, first round of moderation completed :PWill be responding to points in turn that I felt haven't been adequately covered yet (thanks David!), so please stand by :)
Regarding the modding: everyone is entitled to their opinions, as long as they stay collectively professional and emotionally stable. I'm not going to allow this thread to degrade into personal confrontations of any sort, so please don't bother trying--you'll just be frustrating me as I mod again and again, after a long week of IGC, and 2 more days to go!
#28
10/11/2007 (6:53 pm)
Apologies Stephen.
#29
I think opinions are great and all but I swear that some people are here to just rant about stuff and offer nothing productive to the comunity.
Stephen, I asked this before and I'll ask again. Can we please put something in place to mute replys from people we don't want to hear from?
10/11/2007 (7:11 pm)
As Michael Perry asked, what is your point Derek? What drives you to force your opinion down everyones throat.I think opinions are great and all but I swear that some people are here to just rant about stuff and offer nothing productive to the comunity.
Stephen, I asked this before and I'll ask again. Can we please put something in place to mute replys from people we don't want to hear from?
#30
First however, a little more insight as to the definition of "core games" and "action games". If you look at the spectrum between "pure casual" games and "pure hard core games"--it's pretty big. InstantAction is focused on that widening gap between the bubble poppers/match 3 casual stuff, and the BioShock/Halo 3 multi-million dollar projects. You (collective "you") may disagree as to the validity or scope of this market segment, and that's fine!
Very astute, and accurate statement right there.
Another very astute observation, although I definitely don't think that you felt it applied to you as well--I think most are "missing the point", because the current market perception is that there are "casual games" and "hard core games", as a binary black/white situation. We disagree, and we want to provide for the gray areas. There will be additional information coming from external press sources (we had quite a few present at IGC) that should hopefully help to illuminate and help define what games might fall into this gray area.
I certainly realize and respect that people may have this opinion, but please don't mix apples and horses. InstantAction.com is a publishing platform, and Torque 2 is a development application set. They aren't necessarily (or in fact) aimed at the same markets, but of course that's not set in stone either.
It always has been, and continues to be one of our founding visions to provide tools and technology for game development to everyone--beginners, hobbyists, aspiring developers, established indies, and commercial markets (AA/AAA, "serious games", etc). Of course, to most effectively meet the needs of those markets, we as a company need to be smarter than we have been in the past as to how, and when, to approach each--as has been mentioned, 5 different product lines and trying to put every possible market into those lines all at once isn't necessarily the best strategy, and we are actively engaged in approaching our goals in a more effective manner.
In general: It's fine to disagree with our approach--everyone has that option. It's also fine to question the approach, but of course we reserve the right to not discuss specific business strategies or decisions (although when both feasible and not self-damaging, I'll do my best to respond).
10/11/2007 (7:38 pm)
Ok, follow up post. Will try to address specific questions as I can.First however, a little more insight as to the definition of "core games" and "action games". If you look at the spectrum between "pure casual" games and "pure hard core games"--it's pretty big. InstantAction is focused on that widening gap between the bubble poppers/match 3 casual stuff, and the BioShock/Halo 3 multi-million dollar projects. You (collective "you") may disagree as to the validity or scope of this market segment, and that's fine!
Quote:
I'm not drawn to IA because it's a "new thing." I'm drawn to it because I've talked with people for years about the Web 2.0 - Games intersection and this is the first tech that could support ideas that have come from those discussions. I've tried existing web tech for some rough concepts and I've come away dissatisfied. So for me this is tech catching up with my ideas, not ideas coming from new tech.
Very astute, and accurate statement right there.
Quote:
Anyway, I think most are - clearly - missing the point.
Another very astute observation, although I definitely don't think that you felt it applied to you as well--I think most are "missing the point", because the current market perception is that there are "casual games" and "hard core games", as a binary black/white situation. We disagree, and we want to provide for the gray areas. There will be additional information coming from external press sources (we had quite a few present at IGC) that should hopefully help to illuminate and help define what games might fall into this gray area.
Quote:
You quite clearly weren't paying attention then. When was the last time you saw the words hobby and money used in the same sentence? Obviously GG were out to make money in some form or another. I don't think Jesus H. Christ (nor Ho Lee Cow for that matter) died and left the GG founders a pot of Gold so they could just toil away, month after month, in order to give hobbyist's free stuff in perpetuity.
I certainly realize and respect that people may have this opinion, but please don't mix apples and horses. InstantAction.com is a publishing platform, and Torque 2 is a development application set. They aren't necessarily (or in fact) aimed at the same markets, but of course that's not set in stone either.
It always has been, and continues to be one of our founding visions to provide tools and technology for game development to everyone--beginners, hobbyists, aspiring developers, established indies, and commercial markets (AA/AAA, "serious games", etc). Of course, to most effectively meet the needs of those markets, we as a company need to be smarter than we have been in the past as to how, and when, to approach each--as has been mentioned, 5 different product lines and trying to put every possible market into those lines all at once isn't necessarily the best strategy, and we are actively engaged in approaching our goals in a more effective manner.
In general: It's fine to disagree with our approach--everyone has that option. It's also fine to question the approach, but of course we reserve the right to not discuss specific business strategies or decisions (although when both feasible and not self-damaging, I'll do my best to respond).
#31
Thankyou. I truely wish I were at IGC this week, but hey, someone has to keep working. :-D
@Stephen Zepp
Many good points there. I think the biggest problem is there is too much room for negative speculation. We are all here for our own reasons. Mine? I want to build a mmorpgfpsspacesim. Baby steps are keeping the dream alive.
If someone would PLEASE give us more information on what IA is and what this new web browser engine is, it would really help. I trust GG made a simular deal with IA that they did with Seirra, so I'm not worried about GG's future. I know it will be sound no matter what happens with the IA deal. We are all just wanting to be fed information. We can't all go to IGC.
Keep on Keepin on. :-)
10/11/2007 (8:03 pm)
Quote:@Mike Rowley
Torque 2 is not based on TorqueX. The component model was prototyped with TorqueX, but Torque 2 is not based on C#, XNA, or the TorqueX engine. It is a complete refactoring of the engine technology towards component based engine management. As Clark mentioned in the roundtable on Torque 2, it will not be C# and it will not be managed code. It is a core engine with extensible component architecture. That way your team can drop in new features from third party codebases and tools without dealing with a million interconnected systems as is currently the case.
Thankyou. I truely wish I were at IGC this week, but hey, someone has to keep working. :-D
@Stephen Zepp
Many good points there. I think the biggest problem is there is too much room for negative speculation. We are all here for our own reasons. Mine? I want to build a mmorpgfpsspacesim. Baby steps are keeping the dream alive.
If someone would PLEASE give us more information on what IA is and what this new web browser engine is, it would really help. I trust GG made a simular deal with IA that they did with Seirra, so I'm not worried about GG's future. I know it will be sound no matter what happens with the IA deal. We are all just wanting to be fed information. We can't all go to IGC.
Keep on Keepin on. :-)
#32
I know that sounds like a push-off, but we'll be entering beta in the near future, and in many ways it's better to experience instead of trying to guess.
We can talk and talk, but until you experience it for yourself it's difficult to grasp the overlying concept and implementation.
10/11/2007 (8:10 pm)
Well, to be honest, the best way to learn about InstantAction.com is to sign up for the beta!.I know that sounds like a push-off, but we'll be entering beta in the near future, and in many ways it's better to experience instead of trying to guess.
We can talk and talk, but until you experience it for yourself it's difficult to grasp the overlying concept and implementation.
#33
If you were standing around the water cooler with your colleagues and one said "hey, I just read this article on next-gen.biz about IA and it's all bullshit just like I thought it was!" Would you get in his face and say "so, what is your point, asshole?" Not likely. Instead, you might say "you're full of shit, IA is the greatest thing since the ipod and you don't know what you're talking about, blah blah blah"; i.e. a discussion.
My opinion on IA is similar to Derek's (I think). I don't really see how you can deliver anything other than "casual games" over the internet as it is today into a browser and there are lots of sites doing that now. To be successful, IA is going to to have good games and, no offense, so far I haven't seen anything from GG or anyone else using Torque that is really interesting to me. But then, I'm probably not the market audience anyway.
That aside, the idea of delivering non-casual games into a browser doesn't really make a lot of sense to me at this point. We just don't have the bandwidth. Case in point: Half Life 2. This is a successful mainstream game (AAA title) that is quite popular and delivered over the internet (as well as in stores), but not runnable in a browser (and a game I have experience with). Half Life 2 is 841MB. You cannot reasonably expect to deliver that to someone in their browser at the click of a button. Half Life 2 is, of course, several years old and smaller than games created today. Valve, the creator of Half Life, has decided to release the next version of Half Life as 3 "episodes". The current episode, episode 2, is 1.3GB (500MB larger than the previous complete game!). There is just no way to deliver that amount of content over the internet in a timely fashion. I pre-downloaded the game a week in advance of it's release so I would be ready to go when released. The load time between "levels" is still too slow (for me) even coming off my 3Gb/s SATA HD, imagine the load time off my 3Mb/s DSL connection , that's 1000 times slower! Even if it only takes 30 seconds now on SATA HD, that's possibly 30,000 seconds (or 8.3 hours) on DSL. Certainly we could pre-download some common textures or models, but how much can we really reduce the download footprint of a "level" in a AAA game?
10/11/2007 (8:20 pm)
Please, I think Derek is just looking to spark discussion and throw in a few of his opinions. He wants a little debate, what's wrong with that? Why do people need to take it so personally and start in with the personal attacks? If you don't agree with him, why don't you just join the discussion argue your point?If you were standing around the water cooler with your colleagues and one said "hey, I just read this article on next-gen.biz about IA and it's all bullshit just like I thought it was!" Would you get in his face and say "so, what is your point, asshole?" Not likely. Instead, you might say "you're full of shit, IA is the greatest thing since the ipod and you don't know what you're talking about, blah blah blah"; i.e. a discussion.
My opinion on IA is similar to Derek's (I think). I don't really see how you can deliver anything other than "casual games" over the internet as it is today into a browser and there are lots of sites doing that now. To be successful, IA is going to to have good games and, no offense, so far I haven't seen anything from GG or anyone else using Torque that is really interesting to me. But then, I'm probably not the market audience anyway.
That aside, the idea of delivering non-casual games into a browser doesn't really make a lot of sense to me at this point. We just don't have the bandwidth. Case in point: Half Life 2. This is a successful mainstream game (AAA title) that is quite popular and delivered over the internet (as well as in stores), but not runnable in a browser (and a game I have experience with). Half Life 2 is 841MB. You cannot reasonably expect to deliver that to someone in their browser at the click of a button. Half Life 2 is, of course, several years old and smaller than games created today. Valve, the creator of Half Life, has decided to release the next version of Half Life as 3 "episodes". The current episode, episode 2, is 1.3GB (500MB larger than the previous complete game!). There is just no way to deliver that amount of content over the internet in a timely fashion. I pre-downloaded the game a week in advance of it's release so I would be ready to go when released. The load time between "levels" is still too slow (for me) even coming off my 3Gb/s SATA HD, imagine the load time off my 3Mb/s DSL connection , that's 1000 times slower! Even if it only takes 30 seconds now on SATA HD, that's possibly 30,000 seconds (or 8.3 hours) on DSL. Certainly we could pre-download some common textures or models, but how much can we really reduce the download footprint of a "level" in a AAA game?
#34
You are just reconfirming my point--Half Life 2 isn't a game we're talking about, so it's not in any way appropriate to do that type of comparison. You also aren't going to see Halo 3, Gears of War, or related titles that cost multiple millions of dollars to develop (and have a concurrent huge download size).
That absolutely does not mean that games presented in a browser are limited to bubble poppers, card games, and match 3 games either.
If you personally feel that "if it's not Half Life 2, it's casual", that's certainly your prerogative. It's also ours to disagree with that type of black/white categorization :)
10/11/2007 (8:28 pm)
@Derry:You are just reconfirming my point--Half Life 2 isn't a game we're talking about, so it's not in any way appropriate to do that type of comparison. You also aren't going to see Halo 3, Gears of War, or related titles that cost multiple millions of dollars to develop (and have a concurrent huge download size).
That absolutely does not mean that games presented in a browser are limited to bubble poppers, card games, and match 3 games either.
If you personally feel that "if it's not Half Life 2, it's casual", that's certainly your prerogative. It's also ours to disagree with that type of black/white categorization :)
#35
Sorry for the need to mod my post.
@ Derek
Apologies to you too.
And I don't want a mascot, I was just voicing my opinion that if you were a little more modest and didn't talk down to people you experiance would give you more respect from the community as a whole.
10/12/2007 (2:40 am)
@ StephenSorry for the need to mod my post.
@ Derek
Apologies to you too.
Quote:
I don't want to be anyone's mascot
And I don't want a mascot, I was just voicing my opinion that if you were a little more modest and didn't talk down to people you experiance would give you more respect from the community as a whole.
#36
Has anyone looked at the size of some of the games on GameTap?
Cyan's Uru is 1.2 gb. That's right...GigaBytes. It's a downloadable, Playable game on GameTap. It's also not the only large game they have listed. Just becouse it's big, doesn't mean it isn't downloadable. It just means you, as the developer, is going to have to work harder at figureing out how to make it work.
10/12/2007 (4:49 am)
Quote:Well, to be honest, the best way to learn about InstantAction.com is to sign up for the beta!.Hehe, did that the first day. :-)
I know that sounds like a push-off, but we'll be entering beta in the near future, and in many ways it's better to experience instead of trying to guess.
We can talk and talk, but until you experience it for yourself it's difficult to grasp the overlying concept and implementation.
Quote:That aside, the idea of delivering non-casual games into a browser doesn't really make a lot of sense to me at this point. We just don't have the bandwidth. Case in point: Half Life 2. This is a successful mainstream game (AAA title) that is quite popular and delivered over the internet (as well as in stores), but not runnable in a browser (and a game I have experience with). Half Life 2 is 841MB
Has anyone looked at the size of some of the games on GameTap?
Cyan's Uru is 1.2 gb. That's right...GigaBytes. It's a downloadable, Playable game on GameTap. It's also not the only large game they have listed. Just becouse it's big, doesn't mean it isn't downloadable. It just means you, as the developer, is going to have to work harder at figureing out how to make it work.
#37
As well as some evolutions in the technology should be expected in terms of thin computing to be able to access a low to midrange GPU locally. With .45nm and better production you'll have 5 dollar gpu's that are as good as 8600 in a few years. Maybe 3 flip flip process cycles (intels new 2 year cycle). Tied to moores law and cooked by the chef's of the Garage...
So what they make today won't always be the way browser game currently exist. A better form should evolve.
10/12/2007 (5:20 am)
I think there is plenty market for all types of pc core, console and thin computing (browser games).As well as some evolutions in the technology should be expected in terms of thin computing to be able to access a low to midrange GPU locally. With .45nm and better production you'll have 5 dollar gpu's that are as good as 8600 in a few years. Maybe 3 flip flip process cycles (intels new 2 year cycle). Tied to moores law and cooked by the chef's of the Garage...
So what they make today won't always be the way browser game currently exist. A better form should evolve.
#38
Ugh...Derek this is no need to go on the defensive when I comment. I said "...with no malice intended..."
If I wanted to tell you to shut it, well to be frank, I do what I want when I want and I would have said "Shut up and sit down."
I love a good rabble rousing. Hell, I love just saying the world "Rabble." I believe dissidence can be the greatest form of patriotism and support in the right situation. You may say whatever you want. I enjoyed reading your posts when they were new and refreshing. I'm just seeing repetition and want to know, again "what's the point?"
IA will either be a success, a failure, or mediocre. You have a strong opinion backed by supporting evidence and experience. Kudos. A lot of people don't. That doesn't mean you have to keep pushing it in fear people will forget you were right along when(if) IA fails.
Let me ask you this: If IA fails and GG's credibility and finances are hurt, would that be worth celebrating by saying "Ha, I was right along and I posted the first evidence on Oct. 11, 2007" ?
10/12/2007 (5:41 am)
*Again, avoiding the issue of IA until I see it for myselfQuote:
Sorry Mike, I didn't realize that I wasn't being clear enough or that I needed to have a stance in order to be understood. Why don't you just get it over with and tell me to shut up and sit down, because I'm spreading dissent, rousing the populace and all the other bad stuff that gets attributed to me when people don't like what I have to say? Its not my fault that, more often than not, I'm right. My history speaks for itself. When it comes to this industry, I know more than most and I am USUALLY RIGHT.
Ugh...Derek this is no need to go on the defensive when I comment. I said "...with no malice intended..."
If I wanted to tell you to shut it, well to be frank, I do what I want when I want and I would have said "Shut up and sit down."
I love a good rabble rousing. Hell, I love just saying the world "Rabble." I believe dissidence can be the greatest form of patriotism and support in the right situation. You may say whatever you want. I enjoyed reading your posts when they were new and refreshing. I'm just seeing repetition and want to know, again "what's the point?"
IA will either be a success, a failure, or mediocre. You have a strong opinion backed by supporting evidence and experience. Kudos. A lot of people don't. That doesn't mean you have to keep pushing it in fear people will forget you were right along when(if) IA fails.
Let me ask you this: If IA fails and GG's credibility and finances are hurt, would that be worth celebrating by saying "Ha, I was right along and I posted the first evidence on Oct. 11, 2007" ?
#39
On the topic of huge downloads for games, I think it's appropriate to mention procedurally generated content. It's true that current games are large because of the art that they require - visual, spacial, auditory, etc. Fortunately, the core game mechanisms found in executables, scripts and shader instructions are miniscule when compared to all of a game's 'art' assets - the texture maps, normal maps, audio files, FMV clips, models, etc.
People automatically assume that the historical growth pattern of art resource requirements will continue indefinitely. I personally don't believe that to be true. I suspect that a change is coming - with kkrieger and the demoscene paving the way.
Current gen technology (DX10, Gears of War, etc) venerates lighting and model rendering techniques like HDR, bloom, parallax and relief mapping that require 10 gigs of media to make them look good.
I'm guessing that the next generation of games will use procedural approaches for texture maps and sound effects, maybe more. In the process, the next generation of games might look and sound better than Gears of War, while using a quarter of the storage space and bandwidth.
If that happens, then I see Instant Action and similar initiatives becoming the leading edge of quality content in gaming rather than inferior toys for bored housewives.
For those who are skeptical about procedural content in games, watch this video, which shows procedural textures in a modified Unreal 3 Engine demo . . .
download.profxengine.com/gallery/demos/bayou/videos/bayou.wmv
Heres another, using the Gamebryo engine (Oblivion) . . .
download.profxengine.com/gallery/demos/bathroom/videos/bathroom_01.mov
If you keep watching till the end of those clips, you'll notice that the *entire* texture set for those demos was less than 400 KB. That's smaller than one JPEG of a typical Half-Life 2 texture.
If you have watched the videos and are now curious as to what this could mean, here are some additional links . . .
www.bit-tech.net/gaming/2006/11/09/Procedural_Textures_Future_Gam/1
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoscene
And here are some things to Google if you're *really* interested . . .
The Popular Demo
Candytron
kkrieger
theprodukkt
The bottom line is this - our rate of consumption for high bandwidth art assets won't continue forever. Procedurally generated content will take over some day - forcing a new direction in game content development and delivery. As this happens, math geeks will start replacing traditional texture artists in game studios. The same will probably occur in the other disciplines as well -- but it will all start with textures.
I would encourage Garage Games and third-party Instant Action developers to consider procedural game content options.
[Edit: fixed a typo]
10/12/2007 (6:41 am)
Much of this discussion is predicated on the notion that browser games will always be low quality because of bandwidth limitations. That doesn't have to be the case.On the topic of huge downloads for games, I think it's appropriate to mention procedurally generated content. It's true that current games are large because of the art that they require - visual, spacial, auditory, etc. Fortunately, the core game mechanisms found in executables, scripts and shader instructions are miniscule when compared to all of a game's 'art' assets - the texture maps, normal maps, audio files, FMV clips, models, etc.
People automatically assume that the historical growth pattern of art resource requirements will continue indefinitely. I personally don't believe that to be true. I suspect that a change is coming - with kkrieger and the demoscene paving the way.
Current gen technology (DX10, Gears of War, etc) venerates lighting and model rendering techniques like HDR, bloom, parallax and relief mapping that require 10 gigs of media to make them look good.
I'm guessing that the next generation of games will use procedural approaches for texture maps and sound effects, maybe more. In the process, the next generation of games might look and sound better than Gears of War, while using a quarter of the storage space and bandwidth.
If that happens, then I see Instant Action and similar initiatives becoming the leading edge of quality content in gaming rather than inferior toys for bored housewives.
For those who are skeptical about procedural content in games, watch this video, which shows procedural textures in a modified Unreal 3 Engine demo . . .
download.profxengine.com/gallery/demos/bayou/videos/bayou.wmv
Heres another, using the Gamebryo engine (Oblivion) . . .
download.profxengine.com/gallery/demos/bathroom/videos/bathroom_01.mov
If you keep watching till the end of those clips, you'll notice that the *entire* texture set for those demos was less than 400 KB. That's smaller than one JPEG of a typical Half-Life 2 texture.
If you have watched the videos and are now curious as to what this could mean, here are some additional links . . .
www.bit-tech.net/gaming/2006/11/09/Procedural_Textures_Future_Gam/1
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoscene
And here are some things to Google if you're *really* interested . . .
The Popular Demo
Candytron
kkrieger
theprodukkt
The bottom line is this - our rate of consumption for high bandwidth art assets won't continue forever. Procedurally generated content will take over some day - forcing a new direction in game content development and delivery. As this happens, math geeks will start replacing traditional texture artists in game studios. The same will probably occur in the other disciplines as well -- but it will all start with textures.
I would encourage Garage Games and third-party Instant Action developers to consider procedural game content options.
[Edit: fixed a typo]
Torque Owner cr
From your post it's obvious that you aren't a hobbyist anymore. The way I see it, people making and releasing games like Cave Story on the other hand are (they aren't investing any money into making those games).