High -> Low-Res model (working backwards I know)
by Jay Eakins · in Artist Corner · 08/18/2002 (8:50 pm) · 10 replies
I am certain I have seen a thread on this topic before, but wasn't able to find it. Hopefully this doesn't fall too far into the stupid question category.
I know that for a good game model it is better to work from a starting point with a low res model and then increase the model resolution later if needed for movie animations, etc.
Unfortunately, I am having much better success getting decent high resolution models put together than low. I'm talking in the order of 40,000 polys here. Multi-res this down to an acceptable player resolution, and it looks like junk.
Does anyone know of a good place with tips or tutorials for reducing the polygon count without losing details for those like me who seem to be backwards in the way we do things?
I know that for a good game model it is better to work from a starting point with a low res model and then increase the model resolution later if needed for movie animations, etc.
Unfortunately, I am having much better success getting decent high resolution models put together than low. I'm talking in the order of 40,000 polys here. Multi-res this down to an acceptable player resolution, and it looks like junk.
Does anyone know of a good place with tips or tutorials for reducing the polygon count without losing details for those like me who seem to be backwards in the way we do things?
About the author
#2
Start low... stay low :)
08/18/2002 (9:27 pm)
I'm not a modeler, but the overwhelming majority of artists I've heard from around GarageGames and elsewhere have said that working from high to low is not going to produce good results.Start low... stay low :)
#3
You might try using your high-res model as a guide, and producing a low-res mesh based on it - by hand, kind of like a 2d artist might use tracing paper to create a silhouette. But I'm just a programmer, so don't trust me ;)
Alternatively, switch to the Doom3 engine... Or look into spending some time learning how to model low-res.
There really aren't any programs or techniques that can convert high-res to low-res or vice versa short of lots of hand manipulation of the model. You can use smoothers/decimators to get part of the way there, but for it to look good you'll have to do it yourself.
08/18/2002 (9:53 pm)
Getting a model to look "right" when performing massive polygon decimation like that (dropping, say, 90%) is really, really hard to do programatically.You might try using your high-res model as a guide, and producing a low-res mesh based on it - by hand, kind of like a 2d artist might use tracing paper to create a silhouette. But I'm just a programmer, so don't trust me ;)
Alternatively, switch to the Doom3 engine... Or look into spending some time learning how to model low-res.
There really aren't any programs or techniques that can convert high-res to low-res or vice versa short of lots of hand manipulation of the model. You can use smoothers/decimators to get part of the way there, but for it to look good you'll have to do it yourself.
#4
Until the technology can handle polycounts this high, you are better off starting and keeping the poly count low.
If you start low and work up to a high polycount, say 2000 polys, everything you do makes it look that much better. If you start high and try to take the poly count down, it just ends up looking worse.
If you are building charaters, you can try taking a look at Bridgman's "Constructive Anatomy". Breaking down the charater into blocky masses helps yo visualize the shape and will make something blocky (low poly) look good.
I always try to approach the problem as an attempt to convey the idea of a shape that looks good rather than try to create the actual shape.
It also helps to spend your polys on the silhouette of the shape and not waste too many polygons in places that will not contribute to the outline of the shape.
08/18/2002 (10:02 pm)
I have never seen a good tutorial for reducing a model from 40K to 2K that didn't end up with a model that looked like crap.Until the technology can handle polycounts this high, you are better off starting and keeping the poly count low.
If you start low and work up to a high polycount, say 2000 polys, everything you do makes it look that much better. If you start high and try to take the poly count down, it just ends up looking worse.
If you are building charaters, you can try taking a look at Bridgman's "Constructive Anatomy". Breaking down the charater into blocky masses helps yo visualize the shape and will make something blocky (low poly) look good.
I always try to approach the problem as an attempt to convey the idea of a shape that looks good rather than try to create the actual shape.
It also helps to spend your polys on the silhouette of the shape and not waste too many polygons in places that will not contribute to the outline of the shape.
#5
Yeah Matt, I know. That's why I asked, just in case someone might know of a solution. Never hurts to ask. :)
Thanks Sado and Joe. A low poly 'trace' is what I'm going to have to do, I'm sure. But what worries me is getting the textures back to where I need them on that new trace. (Right now mostly procedural textures flattened to an image map).
08/18/2002 (10:09 pm)
Hi Minako: The poly count is mainly going to the head and the clothing at this time. 3DS Max 3.1 and various plugins. I am not an artist, so I am pretty much forced to rely on technology over talent. Hence my delima. I'd link an example image to this thread, but I don't have a website to use for such at the moment.Yeah Matt, I know. That's why I asked, just in case someone might know of a solution. Never hurts to ask. :)
Thanks Sado and Joe. A low poly 'trace' is what I'm going to have to do, I'm sure. But what worries me is getting the textures back to where I need them on that new trace. (Right now mostly procedural textures flattened to an image map).
#6
Minako
08/18/2002 (10:54 pm)
Well, if you wanna send me the thing, I can take a look. Make it an obj though, I avoid Max like the plague. Nothing will run a 40k model, even the new engines like UT 2003 I think will not do a ton more than 5k. Also, you wanna avoid procedural textures, since they look very procedural. UV unwrapping is a lot of work, but it's the only way to really get it to look good. Also, when it comes to cloth, it's not gonna animate nicelly unless you have a really top animator. That or a programer who really does good cloth physics and sticks it into the engine. But, that siad, if you wanna send it my way, can send an obj to minako@asia.comMinako
#7
I also start with the most detailed interior (detail level 0), then go and reduce the details for the lower details. Here's how:
a) approximate. For example, the wall/tower thing I made for RW over the weekend has a beat-up, irregular wall. In the lower-detail versions, I replace that with one or two blocks instead of the 6 or 7 it's in the high-detail version.
So go and see if you have a bunch of brushes that can be replaced with one or two at not much loss. E.g. maybe you can approximate the nose with just a few polygons.
b) use textures instead. For example, if you have a house with a detailed front, take a screenshot of that front and use a single plane with that screenshot as texture for the low-detail versions. From 100m away you can't see the door frame details anyway.
08/19/2002 (12:21 am)
I'm not a modeller, but I do interiors and q3/q3mods levels, so maybe there's something you can use:I also start with the most detailed interior (detail level 0), then go and reduce the details for the lower details. Here's how:
a) approximate. For example, the wall/tower thing I made for RW over the weekend has a beat-up, irregular wall. In the lower-detail versions, I replace that with one or two blocks instead of the 6 or 7 it's in the high-detail version.
So go and see if you have a bunch of brushes that can be replaced with one or two at not much loss. E.g. maybe you can approximate the nose with just a few polygons.
b) use textures instead. For example, if you have a house with a detailed front, take a screenshot of that front and use a single plane with that screenshot as texture for the low-detail versions. From 100m away you can't see the door frame details anyway.
#8
As for procedural texturs, keeping the debate aside whether they are good to use nor not, you might want to avoid using them unless you have a plugin (plenty of quality free and commercial ones for Max) that can bake your procedurals down to a texture, otherwise they will not display in TGE.
Logan
08/19/2002 (7:04 am)
Simulating cloth in Torque is a real difficult to task to say the least so you are perhaps best off avoiding any deforming cloth until you feel more comfortable working with your tool. As for procedural texturs, keeping the debate aside whether they are good to use nor not, you might want to avoid using them unless you have a plugin (plenty of quality free and commercial ones for Max) that can bake your procedurals down to a texture, otherwise they will not display in TGE.
Logan
#9
Falcon, I'll keep playing with ways to reduce the polycount. Probably what I'll end up doing is just using a box method to get the general shape of the high poly model in low poly, then smooth it. Not sure how well it will work yet with mapping the textures.
Logan, the goal isn't to actually simulate cloth in Torque. Sure I want to do some cloth simulation in any movie animations ("if" there will be any), but the idea was originally more to get the overal look of real cloth on the model, then collapse everything to an editable mesh and res it down. Obviously that won't work. Quite frankly I am still at the learning stage, here.
As for the procedural textures, I do have a plugin that will map those out to a flat bitmap image that can later then be mapped to the low poly model... I hope. Don't know if it will work yet, as "we are currently experiencing technical difficulties". Heh. Waiting on tech support for that one.
08/19/2002 (6:05 pm)
Minako. The actual model isn't quite yet ready for primetime, even in high res mode. But I did send you a jpeg example of what I am looking at at the moment.Falcon, I'll keep playing with ways to reduce the polycount. Probably what I'll end up doing is just using a box method to get the general shape of the high poly model in low poly, then smooth it. Not sure how well it will work yet with mapping the textures.
Logan, the goal isn't to actually simulate cloth in Torque. Sure I want to do some cloth simulation in any movie animations ("if" there will be any), but the idea was originally more to get the overal look of real cloth on the model, then collapse everything to an editable mesh and res it down. Obviously that won't work. Quite frankly I am still at the learning stage, here.
As for the procedural textures, I do have a plugin that will map those out to a flat bitmap image that can later then be mapped to the low poly model... I hope. Don't know if it will work yet, as "we are currently experiencing technical difficulties". Heh. Waiting on tech support for that one.
#10
As for simulating cloth, I think that your approach sounds like it will work out, though you are probably running into issues on linking it to the rest of your mesh and polygon optimizations. For realtime applications will should look into building the approximate form that you need and then simulate the rest with a really good bitmap texture. Just keep trying, eventually you will get it to work out in a way that will you will be happy with.
I hope that this information helps you out a bit.
Logan
08/19/2002 (6:17 pm)
Jay, a company called Chaotic Dimension released this free plugin which is called "Bake". The plugin literally bakes your material down to a single texture. This plugin is compiled with the Max R4 SDK (so it will only work with R4 or R5).As for simulating cloth, I think that your approach sounds like it will work out, though you are probably running into issues on linking it to the rest of your mesh and polygon optimizations. For realtime applications will should look into building the approximate form that you need and then simulate the rest with a really good bitmap texture. Just keep trying, eventually you will get it to work out in a way that will you will be happy with.
I hope that this information helps you out a bit.
Logan
Torque Owner Minako
Minako