Updated Magic DOc + Character Class Stuff

#1 James - since you like the idea of the elemental system but consider it too complicated, and I like the idea of the time-based system but consider it too "flat", I will try to combine the two and come up with something during the next few days.

#2 Sounds good. One of my main concerns is that the system should be manageable without separate screens or a bunch of stuff needed onscreen. I have an idea I am toying with but I have to think more about it. Anyway go for it, let me know what you have something.

#3 Very short and to the point, James. Good work. :nod:

Of course, my vote goes towards the timing system. While the others (and an elemental system) could work as well, I think the timing system is just more beneficial in terms of our type of gameplay.

[edit]:

With the Thief, I'm concerned about one or two things... The backstab move sounds nice, but not many people stand in one spot for more than a couple of seconds. I either see this becoming an almost useless move, or one that everyone hates. Like almost any game, there's always one move or weapon that people don't even like seeing being used in the game, whether they're killing anyone or not. Most of the time, people end up hunting down the people that use these weapons or characters, simply because they hate being killed in such a "dishonorable" way. I'm not saying it's a bad idea perse, but I just don't want to see any class arise from RW that everyone hates, for one reason or another.

Another thing I'm wondering about is the Doppleganger move. How well will that work in-game? Will the clone be running into trees and walking into hills? Also, it won't do much good unless your clone is right next to you, because whoever you're attacking will obviously see that the guy running at him with a sword is the real one, not the guy a foot away from him who isn't even looking at you. In any case, the defender's attention will be directed at the person attacking him, clone or not. The Doppleganger move, I thought, has always been along the lines of morphing into another person's shape? I think that would be more useless personally. (Rather than cloaking, like in most games, you could simply take on the appearance of someone from the other team, or take the form of a tree or a rock, etc.)

But anyway... just some suggestions and viewpoints. :) Overall, good work once more.

#4 About the Thief, it is more of an illustration of the depth of suggestions I want rather than a really thought out suggestion itself. I agree a backstab would be iffy. As far as the Doppleganger I was thinking of a few different scenarios where if might be useful:

a: Somebody is chasing you.
b: You are trying to cover ground to reach someone.
c: You want to draw out fire so you can see where people are, have them waste ammo, etc.

So say I'm behind a wall near the right edge, I use the doppleganger and then strafe left. My clone goes past the wall before I reach the far end, and people shoot at it while I sneak around or run up behind them. At the least they waste a few shots on it while I can cover ground. If you mix that up with other stuff going on like other team members, smoke bombs, etc it can add confusion and help the thief live longer. It might buy you just a second or two but that might be all you need.

Morphing into objects or changing your look to be another character class could be cool.

But the main point is that I'd like a pretty standard format for suggestions. Hopefully I can build up a good portfolio of them and then refine and whittle them down.

#5 Yeah, I can see where you're going with it, and I'm sure it'd be nifty, but the scripting concerns me at some points. I'm sure it's not that complicated though, so it wouldn't create any bog if it was used consitently in a full server.

And morphing into other objects in indeed fun. I remember on JK1 (which was notorious for being hacked), you could create a cog file that would allow you to change into any shape you punched. Although I was naughty for doing it ( :D ), it was probably the most fun I had in a long time. Being able to actually turn into a box and sit amongst them while unwary enemies pass you by is just plain fun.

Really, I think a skill (or spell?) like that would be pretty fun. Of course, you'd have to balance it a lot more. Say, you could make it so that you take on the traits of whatever you turn into. First off, you'd have to find something you want to turn into. Then you'd have to kill it or touch it, or use a spell on it, etc. After that, you can turn into it at a whim. But, the drawback is that if you turn into a tree, or rock, etc., you won't be able to move or use any type of attacks. Really, such a skill should be used for stealth more than anything else. After thinking it over, I think that turning into other characters is a no-no, simply because it's not very innovative. Rather, a skill like this should probably be limited to in-game objects, and *possibly* creatures.

Let's see... In my mind, this would work (not like this is my final solution or anything, just top of my head stuff):

Thief

Special Abilities (replaces magic I assume):

*Blend: The Thief melds with his surroundings, become nearly undetectable, especially when standing still. (I assume that this will essentially be "cloaking," as most other games define it as. This would mean that you can see them if they're moving pretty quickly, or if you're within about 10 feet; otherwise they're invisible.)

*Doppleganger: The Thief can turn into whatever object he last touched, aside from other players, which makes him blend in perfectly with natural settings, but disallows him from moving or using any other commands. This is good for remaining undetectable, especially when low on health and deep in enemy territory.

*Steal: This causes no damage to the enemy and has no benefits for the Thief, but it does remove the other player's weapon, shield, and drops their stamina (magic or skill meter - the blue bar) to zero. This is very effective in the midst of fighting a more powerful opponent, physically or magically, but must be done at close range. (I'm not sure how this would work since we don't have a definite melee or skill system yet, but you get the idea.)

I have no issue with the items/weapons. I rather like them, especially the grappling hook. :D

I imagine the Thief will possess a knife as a weapon, and other close range weapons. This would mean that the Thief would have low "HP," be pretty fast, but wouldn't be able to cause damage unless in close combat, aside from the slow-use grappling hook.

One note on the burning oil flask: it could also be used to light the ceremonial fire pit that's already being worked on, and to light other areas that serve as light sources. One idea that I like is if someone could build a trench (not the terrain, it would elevate above the ground), then the Thief could toss these flasks inside, and the trench would become a giant flaming barrier. Otherwise, it could be used normally as a foxhole-type of thing.

Overall, I think the Thief would probably be my favorite character to use, since I love playing strategically, sneaking up on opponents and laying traps.

#6 How is the backstabbing actually going to work? In most FPS games people don't stand around unless they are afk or camping. This would make it very hard and impractical it would seem. Could this be more of an automatic special ability and if the thief actually hits a person in the back it would just do more damage? The idea of sneaking behind someone to attack them sounds fun and works in single player games such as the Thief series and Deus Ex, but in MP I can't see it work unless the thief actually becomes invisible. Just some thoughts of mine.

#7 Four Element Based Magic Points: Under this system spells would cost different amounts of four different elements. To me this seems too difficult to keep track of from a player standpoint, and the collecting of element points is not straightforward and very tied to level design. Changing the elements from the standard Earth, Wind, etc to more abstract things like death and life lose the original point of the system. The system does not work well with fairly random maps, which is what we will have in the near future. I think a system somehow tied to the elements would be interesting, but I don't have any great ideas for that at right now.

The idea I was trying to present earlier was that the spells would be tied to the four different elements and not a point system to the different elements. My idea was based on the time system. You may still believe that the zoned areas of fairly random maps may still be a problem though. The areas would just give bonuses or detriments to a spell being cast, otherwise the spells are casted normally in normal areas. Bonuses would be more of something as casting quicker and/or making the spell more powerful.

Back to the thief ideas. I would like to see it based on the time system too with an energy bar. The special abilities such as cloaking or doppleganging could last as long as the person has the energy for it and could possibly do both at the same time with energy bar decreasing at a faster rate (brings up the point why I think the magic system with mana being decreased instead of a bar being charged up, keep a standard of bars decreasing in energy among different classes). I can't see the morphing being implemented that well when people begin to know the maps and realize that a tree isn't suppose to be somewhere so it must be a thief. I like the idea of being able to scale and climb walls though. I don't understand the swinging with the grapple hook or how it could be implemented (could be fun though).

#8 Quickly:

Having what element you are near modify your spell is feasible.

Backstabbing would be hard to make work, I realize that. It would be possible just to make it so that hitting people in the back does extra damage, but that is sort of going away from the idea of a sneaky character. It could still be fun though, especially if mixed with things like smoke bombs. (Throw one in, wait a few seconds, dash in and try to nail people in the back)

Swinging around on ropes would also be hard to make work in terms of programming, but I'd rather throw it in there and get it rejected due to programming considerations than never mention it. Another possibility would be a hook that shoots upward and just sucks you up in a straight line, which is obviously much easier to implemenent but less fun.

In general I'm not going to shy away from things that require specific programming. It is a new game after all, not just Tribes 2 with some new textures slapped on. If we have to scale back we scale back.

#9 Perhaps something of mutual support, some classes could create mana wells as one spell allowing themselves and others to accelerate casting times, possibly these mana wells could be scewed towards a particular element, meaning that it only improves certain spells.

I'm still not so sure about being near a certain element, but I can see that as a workable solution too, aslong as the wizard is aware that he is near that element.

#10 Backstabbing isn't impossible to work, it should be hard to do, but it should be quite quite lethal, and with the invisibility/blending in skill it should be quite workable. I can understand what you mean by people wont e standing around much, but I get the impression the theif is supposed to sly into the enemy base and start killing at random, because people in their own base move more slowley and do stop for reasonable amounts of time, especially if there are "stations" and other such items in their base that they can use. Plus they would be an excellant method of combatting snipers, if we have them.

I think backstab should stay in as people will be able to use it, but if successful it should be pretty much lethal.

#11 The GUI should be pretty similair throughout the different classes and James has already hinted at this before. Maybe having a visual representation of what this might look like would help people with the thought process on designing the gameplay elements. I'll try to play around and see what I can come up with around some of my own thoughts.

James, I agree that you shouldn't shy away from ideas that at first may seem unfeasible. It's good to throw them out and get some feedback on them. Who knows when someone comes along and has a great way to implement the ideas even though you might have thought that it could have been impossible.

#12 Considering throwing out ideas, here's a big 'un!

(I posted before this on a design page in the comunity section, edit later...)

Ok, you need a magic system thats quick, universal (meaning for all players, reguardless of class, etc.), and alows for great customization.

Here's my theory:

Magic spells can be chosen when creating and perhaps also traded or purchased (the later could be up for discussion).

Depending upon class, etc., the player has a certain number of 'slots' to fill with the spells they can choose from. These slots can then easily be represented by simple hotkeys (F-keys or numpad?)in order to select or cast (another discussion). We can also have icons on screen or a spells drop-down menu which would be clear to new players.

Certain spells could cost more magic than others, and certain classes could have greater magic than others in order to keep a decent balance (Good testing subject).

As the player casts magic, it depletes the cost of the spell from the remaining magic points left. Magic points themselves could regenerate over time (another testing subject in-game).

Now for some fun!

Besides having magic skills, other classes including fighters and thieves, could have special skills to fill their 'slots'!!

Again, each class could have more or less slots to fill, and their selection would only be limited to their role.

As for their balance in combat, you could have a 'cost' for each action and it depletes the players dexterity points or something along those lines.

Now, these skills and spells will be able to be more than plentiful, and I think everyone working on this can think of something they would want their character to be able to do!

That's maximum customization for you, and it gives an easy and quick way to play!

Hope you love it as much as I do, and I can't wait to hear what you think:D

Edit: Above I also took into consideration for the 'elements' approach and it could be tied in with the system I mentioned above.
My opinion would be to be without the extra confusion of needing to meet an extra requirement in order to cast magic, but if done correctly, could be used to enforce more teamwork between a groups' magic users. Needs discussion I think:)

And I love the morphing ability mentioned, sounds like a great spy tactic! Just objects though. A copy then change system sounds good :)

Also, I have plenty more to offer, expect to have more of my assistance, if you want it that is:D

#13

Quote:
Depending upon class, etc., the player has a certain number of 'slots' to fill with the spells they can choose from. These slots can then easily be represented by simple hotkeys (F-keys or numpad?)in order to select or cast (another discussion).

Certain spells could cost more magic than others, and certain classes could have greater magic than others in order to keep a decent balance (Good testing subject).

As the player casts magic, it depletes the cost of the spell from the remaining magic points left. Magic points themselves could regenerate over time (another testing subject in-game).

All of this is working on my computer as of right now, at least to some extent. (I have magic based on energy, which regenerates over time in the standard T2 manner)

Quote:
Besides having magic skills, other classes including fighters and thieves, could have special skills to fill their 'slots'!!

Again, each class could have more or less slots to fill, and their selection would only be limited to their role.

Yup, that is also part of the plan. I also looked into charging the spells up, doesn't look too hard either.

#14 I think the idea of a class that can take on someone else's persona is an interesting one. In Quake TeamFortress the spy could change class appearance and team colours. It took a length of time to change and attacking made you revert back to normal.
It was really good fun to sneak behind enemy lines and try to fit in and take out/distract critical enemies, but it was also pretty annoying to face a couple of enemy spies, and they had gas grenades which used to get spammed all over the doors of the respawn area.

If it was to be implemented in realmwars, changing appearance to a different race would most likely be out of the question, and it would mean a bit of a hack to fit in with the team identification system, but it could be a pretty cool class to have. It's actually pretty difficult to get behind enemy lines too. Imagine seeing one of your team on full health running away from the battle and towards your flag.

Weaponry such as the hallucinogenic gas grenades or sedative darts was pretty annoying in the hands of the spy - I think it was how the spy only had to fool you for a moment and press fire, and then you couldnt do much except move slowly about the place for a few minutes. I think it was the fact that the knife caused so much damage though - it meant that a single hit often meant an easy kill.

The doppleganger is a really cool idea. The last time i saw anything remotely like that was in a really old quake mod.

As for magic, and another TeamFortress comparison. The timing system could be done in the same way the sniper rifle worked in TF. Basically you held fire to charge the rifle and released it to fire. It was a little inappropriate for a sniper rifle, but for magic i think it would be very fitting. It would mean you'd have to be unable to do anything else while charging the spell, and once charged, you'd have no choice but to cast it somewhere, it'd be like all the forces have been summoned and you cant just make them go back.

#15 The Magic Systems Proposal has been mirrored here: www.the-junkyard.net/articles.php?action=viewarticle&id=95.

#16 That sounds good, but heres my proposal:

A thief is someone who steals, is usually poor, and can have poor training or skills.

I believe your thinking of a Rogue. Rogue would definatly fit the class better than a thief who doesnt have any steal skill

#17 The following opinion assumes that the concept of levels and persistant characters would be implemented at some point :

I used to play a lot of paper based RPG games in my youth.. at one point I started designing my own. Here's the concept for a system of magic I came up with.

Aptitude (or level) plays a part in calculating the cost in Magic Points when casting a spell. Complexity (resistance) adds to the cost of the spell being cast.

Resistance / Aptitude = MP Cost

My paper based system allowed for the magician to manipulate the base spell (not sure if this can be done in TGE yet - but set spells can be created using the formula) :

Distance - each 10' of distance to target = +1 pt Resistance,
each 5ft diameter circle around target = +1 pt Resistance

Mass - each 15 lbs of mass being manipulated = +1 pt Resistance
Effect - damage / healing / shield = +1 pt Resistance per point
Target - each target = +1 Resistance

My example :

A fireball fired at 50' away with a diameter blast zone of 20' for D10+2 damage (it was a D10 based system - damage would be X in TGE)

50' = 5pts
20' diameter = 4pts
1 target = 1 pt
D10+2 = 12 points (this was scaled for the game, this would have to be refactored for TGE's larger hit point range)

Total : 22 points

A character with a level of 10 : 22/10 = 2.2 Magic Points
level of 5 : 22/5 = 4.4 magic pts
level of 2 : 22/2 = 11 magic pts

Magic regenerated over time, or outside effect (potion, etc).