content packs

#1 While individual, animated characters would be nice, sets of generic (max biped ?? dunno, I'm no modeller :)) .dsq files to reuse on our characters would also be great, I would really like to see more generic content pack to fill our respective worlds, especially for teams where the demo or even the full game is most likely the product of less than 5 individuals (and possibly contracting out some of the content work, of course : this is why I'm all for the packs, being a game designer and programmer, I'd rather use good models and stuff than spend more hours than I can spare on "programmer art" ;))...
What do i mean by generic content packs ??
Well, i mean what is called prefabs on lots of models and skins sites for the various "modable" games out there (Quake N, Unreal/UT, HL, Tribes 1 (and 2), etc.) : furniture, and all the sorts of necessaries accesories to people our virtual world with something that feels "alive", if not "real", depending on the desired effect.
So, of course, they could be grouped by themes (ie fantasy, scifi, etc.) and function (weapons, furniture, computers, Plants and Trees, etc.), but there should also be some "Starter Pack" for each theme or genre (again fantasy, scifi, cyberpunk, whatever ;)) that would be a mismash of all the functions : maybe a character, and lots of props and other stuff to get started on world making.
Or course, themed weapon packs are also necessary...
As Sound packs, generic music, maybe even GUI parts (and other scripts too ?? Efficient, debugged, etc.)
There is a world of opportunities for budding, professional and established artists to both contribute to the general indie game making effort in a wide ranging way and, whether we like it or not, an important thing, getting paid for it...
Oh, maybe we should be able to build our own packs too, from a database of objects ??
What about if someone wants a bunch of models, knowing that they will be tweaked and re-skinned/textured ??
Should the models be available untextured too ??
And what about different level of animation for the characters, ie supply more animations for mo' money, giving everyone a chance to work within their budget, and not buying stuff you won't use, while the artists still get paid for everything sold ??
That's it for now,
I hope the artists communities and GG can pull this one off, and that we respond adequately by buying those packs
Good weekend all,
N.

#2 I also think this is something that would be great for the community. It would give programmers and people new to the Torque a way to populate their worlds without having to go through the hassle of finding a team (and learning what they need to know to find an artist that can give him/her what they want.)

For the artists, it could be a good deal as it would allow them to get some money for their work, without having to ask for money upfront or fear that the project will never get completed (they will never see the royalties)

Instead of one team paying by the hour for someone to make rocks and trees, the cost of such an asset is distributed among many people. It is a win-win situation for everyone.

So,

The list so far for art assets(Taken from the above post) is:

Generic DSQ files.
Furniture
Plants and Trees
Weapon Packs

What else would people want? What sort of generic DSQs would people like to see?

Also, which is preferred, more general content to make a demo or prototype of a game, or more specific content (i.e theme packs) for the final product.

It would be good to know how much people would be willing to pay for something like a tree, or a pack with 3 or 4 trees in it. $10? $20?

What would one pay for a good set of terrain tiles?

For weapon packs, would people want a general gun, or is the interest in realistic, totally accurate recreations of real firearms (complete with scripts that reflect proper muzzle velocity and rate of fire).

Are people interested in purchasing the source files? Or would the DTS/DSQs/ etc... be sufficient?

#3 I would like to add player models and vehicles... A lot of people should be intrested in those...

For player models we will need a standard skeleton that could work with all models, or at least with a whole lot of them... So generic skeleton with an X amount of animations could be sold to...

I'm really intrested to see what people are willing to pay for this.

How about textures, do you sell them with a texture or just with a template. Textures take up alot of time but thay can show people how well the model is UV mapped...

Content packs could really work, it is a very intresting idea to say the least.

#4 One thing I'd see as quite important here, is that you should be able to buy a "standard" model for a small-ish price, but be able to buy rights to modify it for a greater cost.

For instance, lets take a hypothetical game. Lets call it antistrike.

So what do we need?

6 or so "realistic" weapon models.
2 or so "realistic" police/army character models
2 or so "realistic" terror models/characters
1 character model for hostages.
Animations for the above.

Now we could start with a "generic male" model, buy a "police/army" skin pack. Buy "police/army" DSQ pack.
Buy "Realistic Modern Weeapons" Pack. The hostage movement could use a generic movement pack.

There are always needs for stuff like tree's, rocks, everyday objects. Those are relatively simple packs to put together.

One really big advantage of the packs I can see if that it puts artists in contact with developers on a paying basis. So for instance, the artist can qoute a rate in each pack for "additional work" to the models, or custom models. Everything is legal and above board (because everyone knows that you pay for a certain license to use).

I'm probably not the best person to comment on costs of these kind of things, because I can probably pay more than most here for models.

I'm all for the idea of content packs though, they'll REALLY pick up the quality of content here. I'd also like to see "map" packs too. I.e. really good mapped buildings. Follow a certain theme etc. There are MORE than enough good mappers out there that could use the money.

I guess it all comes down to someone having success initially enough to get others interested. But if anyone needs any help in getting this running, let me know (obviously not modelling help, but exporting, scripts or anything else).

Phil.

#5 Joe, with stuff like content packs, its going to be hard to find exactly what you want. So maybe its better to stick to "generic" packs initially, with themed packs of say modern or ww2 or future weapons.

I dont expect everyone to actually ship with this kind of stuff, but it certainly helps demonstrate concepts, which is kind of what torque is aimed at.

Just keep the quality consistantly high enough and it'll do a ton of sales. Remember, its not only the torque community that'd pay.

Phil.

#6 Yes, I was thinking very generic. Things like trees, rocks, crates, barrels and such. Simple shapes like these can be used in just about every game.

The themed packs might be useful for RPG type games. I am thinking that anyone making this type of game can use the generic items until they have the time or money to get custom work done.

I don't see a problem with someone shipping a game with a generic tree. If it works, why go to the trouble of getting something custom?

At the very least, it should allow for people to prototype a game idea and attract a team around a working concept (instead of text description).

I am most interested in fidning out what people would find most useful in 'generic' content packs, and how much they would pay for simple items. Also curious as to what people would like to see for 'generic' characters and for other 'generic' animation files.

#7 I definately agree that these content packs are a real bonus for both the artists and the programmers. Not only this but it could greatly help get games produced faster/quicker while allowing the teams to focus on newer and better things.

My only concern with content packs is that they need to be picked with a fine tooth comb before being released because there is no room for error here.

Logan

#8 I tell you what I would be willing to pay for player models and or monsters models, but 100 bucks seems very steep especially if 100 people are going to be using them,,, Now think of this,,, if you would sell 1 player model at say 10 bucks a pop with the basic animations, and you sell 100 of it that 1000 bucks (see my point).

If you keep the price very resonable, your apt to sell much more and still make it worth your while.

And then you could always charge more for speacial animation requests, and i would definatle be interested.

#9 /ME would be very interested in this, especially in the "generic packs" with everyday stuff like trees, bushes, furniture, street signs, grass, flowers, lamps, ... and yeah, it should be with the "source" (MAX, MS3D, ...) and the DTS files...

And I actually like Phils idea of "Map Packs", too... various buildings, streets, etc. with a bunch of textures to choose from, etc....
Man, this would be heaven on earth... :)))
Yeah, but keep the prices "reasonable", hard to tell what I would be willing to pay, though... really depends how much objects you get, how high the quality is, if the "source" files are contained, etc.

#10 I was just throughing out numbers to get the ball rolling so if you don't think those numbers are reasonable or within your price range speak up. There are some high quality artists in here wondering what they can charge for their sweet stuff. Don't let this opertunity pass you by.

Another possibility would be to have a generic character model with a very basic skin for really cheap and then have a bunch of skins for that model sold seperately for like $5 each.

Another thought on this would be for the art community here to decide on a bone set to use for character models so that other people could create .dsq's for those models. Have some type of special marker or something to indicate that this model follows the rules so you can use any animation that also follows the same rules.

A little quality commity might be nice but I don't think it would be fair to limit who submits art. The commity could have a seal of approval to indicate that the work is quality stuff or something along those lines. This could become unmanageble if there are too many submissions though.

Alc

#11 I think another issues that should be discussed is the liscensing issue itself. Does buying the pack mean that the model is yours forever or does it mean that you have a liscense to use it in your specific project? Personaly I think that buying the work in a pack allows you to use it on one specific project only. I know that some people might bitch and moan about this but most of you are forgetting just how much work goes into making stuff like this. The alternative to this is that prices are much higher to compinsate for this.

In regards to prices I think that should be left up to the artist who is releasing his/her work in the content pack.

As for the quality assurance of the work, I personally think that no content pack should be put up for sale if it does not pass a series of tests. Yes this is a big thing to do but it is needed just like the Q&A that is needed for any game relased through GG.

@Beefy, I am personaly somewhat against giving out the original 3D files from the program that the model was produced in. These files are not necessary for anyone using the pack, you only need the TGE necessary files. Not only this but you are simply buying a liscense to use the work in your project not to modify the work as you see fit.

Logan

#12 I agree on the liscensing issue. If someone wants to use it on their project, and they are selling it for profit, they should be able to pony up the dough to use the content in a second project.

The price will end up being set by the artists. I am assuming that the law of supply and demand will regulate the price, but it would be good to get more people giving feedback on what types of prices they consider reasonable. Reasonable is relative. Many people are really not aware of how much work it takes to get a new player character working in the game.

I am not sure how quality assurance will work. A rating system (like the resource rating system) might work here. It could be like Amazon.com. If you like what you got, you rate it high. If it's crap, rate it low. This could end up self regulating as the content providers will become recognized as 'good' or 'bad' depending on the work they produce. We do want to prevent the community from being flooded with crap -non-working content.

As for giving away the source files, I see some value in that. How many people would buy the packs to find out how a certatin type of shape was constructed?

I forsee a pricing structure where you can buy the DTS and DSQ files for a certain price, but if you want the source, you pay a premium for it. This will give the artist compensation for the work they did and discourage people from buying a shape and modifying it, or even worse, trying to re-sell it.

I do agree also that it would be a good thing if some sort of standard skeleton should be defined. This will help the developers quite a bit as it would allow for them to mix and match Shapes and Animation files wihtout having to track certain families of skeletons and animation files.

It might be a good idea to see what happens with the Realm Wars community project. The skeletons used there might be the skeletons that define what is the 'standard'.

#13 As far as ballpark figures go for models.

For a standard "content pack" i.e. 10 or so objects like tree's and such, no source, just dts files. I'd say around 30-50 bucks.

For a themed pack (say ww2 weapon models, about 10 models again no source) I'd say 50-80 dollars.

For a "generic" human player model with 5 or so skins (stuff like security guard, chemist, banker, in-mate and peasant), again no source. I'd say about 200 dollars.

For a set of working vehicles (say tank, jeep, heli) 200-300 bucks.

For a high quality model (lets say the orc) with source to tweak. I'd say about 300-500 bucks.

These values are low enough to let me risk some cash on getting a design going (about the cost of a high end PC would get me moving along quite nicely).

I'd say these prices were on the low side for the artist, but on the high side for a hobbyist. But for someone who's serious about development with torque, I dont think its impossible.

Would it be feasible to make money out of the above prices given a reasonable conversion rate? say for every 1000 torque licensed, 50 people take up each pack?

Remember, we're not just talking torque here. There are countless other engines you could look at selling the same content for.

Phil.

#14 In my books, I look at models in a slightly different way - as something that can be modified, where the model is just the base. In this way, you can use the same model to populate an entire army, some smaller, some taller, some fatter, some with big noses, or ears, etc.

The key is that the model is a generic version of the character or characters that you actually want to use.

Now, if one applies this principle to these licensed models, it becomes clear that each one can be as unique as required by the project, so there is much less danger of having your design appearing in 5 or 10 different games.

Hence, you can sell more, for less. All you need is a decent model, with discrete vertices where the features of the model can be programatically changed to yield a different object, and a set of stretchable skin tectures.

Just an idea. If anyone wants more detail, email me, or post a question here.

LeckyT

#15 heh, people buy torque not only cuz it offers alot, as far as engines go, but it is very inexpensive too. If you try selling comunity player models for 300-500 bucks next to torque, you may just deter potential buyers.

Dont get me rong I know what goes in to a "good" model, I just think if you are going to sell stuff as a "torque pack" you should really keep in theme with the torque selling idea.

The best way would be to sell the torque packs at very afordable prices, then advertise (with in the packs) your higher quality stuff.

#16 I agree it might be on the high side for many torque developers. But I think its about the limit of what I'd pay myself.

I'd possibly go over if I was halfway through my project..

Phil.

#17 Actually that price isn't too "out there" when you compare it to the cost of buying professional models to use in tv/video work. Just take a look at what DeEspona charges for some of his work and even that price isn't that low considering you do not have exclusive use of the model and are not allowed to modify it any way, shape, or form.

I think the best way to look at content packs is this... if you can afford them, then buy them, they will save you a lot of resources trying to reproduce similar work yourself and allow your team to focus on other requirements. The content packs are here to make things easier and quicker for you, it is your choice if you want to buy them or not.

Logan

#18 All this sounds wonderful.

Can we include sound files? :)

Also how about some scripts with those models? After all how many times can you write a script for the same weapon type?

BTW, I posted a suggestion for free content, but it didn't get any replies. So I guess paying a small fee, will get some people interested in offering their talents.

#19 The idea of having sound content is a fantastic one. I am also into have a 'free content' area, but I know that I cannot afford to spend time making free content.

If I can make the money to compensate me for my time over a period of 6-8 months, I would be into it.

On the pricing, I agree that the prices that Phil put out are a little high for this community, but I will echo Logans comments. Making high quality art takes time.

My thoughts are that one could make a pack with a few simple shapes and sell the shapes and textures for $10-$20 and hope to sell 100-150 over the course of a year.

For larger more complex shapes (like flyers, vehicles, characters, etc, complete with scripts) I was thinking that the price might be higher ($20-$45, depending on quality?)

Would people consider this to be reasonable?

The idea of including scripts is a good idea too. Making working vehicles and weapons will require it, and I think these little touches will add value to the packs.

I see these to be not only content for people to put into their games, but also a source of education, where people can look at how somethng was done.

@Guy, I would be interested in hearing more about your idea. I understand the concept, but I am curious as to how one would go about setting this up for use with the Torque.

#20 @Joe : I'm working on it ;) I made the post slightly glibly, without *really* thinking about how Torque deals with these kinds of things, it was just a general comment.

However, if people are interested, I can do some research and come up with a kind of white paper / solution guide?