IDEA: Torque and a book!

#1 Sounds like an idea. It may be better to have a $50 book you buy to help with the engine. (Of course you'd still have to come to GarageGames.com and license the engine.) I'd hate to have the community flooded with people wanting the game to be built for them. Most definately a Torque Game Engine reference/guide/tutorial book may be nice. :-)

#2 Thanks! I really think it would work. Sadly, most people on this site are intelligent and I am not. Learning a engine from just the code alone would take far too much time. The book might be a great idea.

You are also right about the $50.00. Maybe you will get a %25 discount on licensing the engine if you do so within 30 days of purchasing the book!

Stede

#3 I don't think selling a book/torque license for $125+ at barnes and noble would work too well. Most game development books are around the $50 range, as was already stated, so for someone to pony up over $100 for would be kinda tough.

Plus there is the fact that there are already plenty of game programming, and even engine programming, books out there already. I don't really think another basic one is really needed, even if it did kinda lean towards the Torque engine. I don't know if its a bad idea, but I don't think its really needed. Setting up a deal with some book where you get a break on the license fee of torque would be a really cool thing tho.

However, I would tend to think that a good set of documentation on Torque would be much more valuable, atleast to the community, than a book on general game programming, even if it featured Torque.

#4 I have been booted off this site. Although I could keep creating accounts I simply don't want to be somewhere I am not welcome so I say goodbye!

Thanks you for answering my post thought!

Stede :-)

#5 As a game programming author constantly looking for topics, I would like to voice my interest in this field.

How about a 250 page, 'Focus on Torque' book that would cover getting started with the SDK, and develop a small game that excercises as much of the engine as possible.

I would be interested on running the book in parallel with the Realm Wars development cycle - perhaps going as far as putting a demo of RW on the CD?

Now, I am in contact with a publisher who might well be interested in this, especially if those nice people at GG would be willing to put a demo version of Torque on the book CD, just enough to build the example code.

Metrowerks did the same thing with CodeWarrior, if I remember correctly...

Anyway, just some ideas. I would really like to be involved in writing a book like this, so if anyone has any other ideas, just let me know.

#6 A Book would be a great idea!

As long as it didn't contain too much techno-jargon, i'd enjoy reading it =)
A Reasonable price of around $50 would be ok for me. For the game engine, you could include a copy, but not entitle the reader access to the some of the website features(e.g CVS)
You could also have a non-distribution license for torque, so if people seriously wanted to make a game with torque, they could buy the full license, and access to the rest of the website features (You could have a voucher with the book so they wouldn't pay the *full* $100)

#7 I had considered this some time ago then got sidetracked when I discovered I could do models and textures.

I do think it's a worthy project, and wish the best to anyone who gives it a try. :-)

#8 Thats a good idea. I'd buy it. All the other books out there that explain alot about programing and such, but dont explain making a game (for torque anyway.)

#9 Guy,

Actually, I think that would be a pretty good idea overall. A book dedicated to game creation, while using the torque engine, would probably be pretty valuable to a lot of people.

However, what I would hope for, and what might not be possible due to publisher's concerns, is that it wouldn't cover too much basic "game development" stuff, and really just get to the meat. There are sooooo many books out there that cover game development, and soooo many others that cover a specific topic only to be dragged down at the beginning by all the "basic" stuff that publishers usually want to have in there to insure the greatest audience. I don't really mean that in a bad way, I just think its a waste to have 10 books on my shelf, the first half of each covers the exact same stuff, just 'cause I wanted what was in the second half. I tend to want books that cover one topic well, rather than cover many topics marginally.

Having bought and read quite a few books from charles river (I really liked your Mathematical Techniques, btw :), it seems that they seem more willing to have specific books. I would hope they'd be willing to do something like this?

As a programmer, what I would want out of a book about game creation with torque would probably be quite a bit narrower in focus than what the general population would want, and thats ok. Even a general book that sticktly focussed on Torque would probably be valuable.

The only problem I see with something like this is that it might be severly restricted by the licensing terms. If you can't talk about stuff that only people with licenses are allowed to know, then the book is going to be very general and probably be more of a "Creating a mod of Tribes2" book than a "Creating a game with the Torque Engine."

Perhaps if the sdk were repackaged into a dll or something, and the book shipped with it, rather than the full source code, it might work. I believe you could have code snippits and talk about how things in the engine work, just not ship the full source. Or maybe just ship with a demo of RW, and say if you really wanna get serious go buy a license (possibly with a little discout), if not you can mod RW.

Something like this would probably need quite a bit of cooperation from the GG folks. It'd be nice to see tho.

#10 I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

The main reason I have yet to buy Torque is because I'm afraid of the lack of documentation. All the docs I see are no more than lists of functions with a sentence telling what they do. Don't know about you guys... but I have a very difficult time learning from that.

A book about how to make a game with Torque would be AWESOME. I'd buy the book even if I had to spend $50 on the book and then $100 on the engine.

#11 One problem is that there isnt really anyone qualified to write the book, since no one has made a game wtih torque yet. :)

Also, writing a book takes ALOT of time, time that could be spent making a game instead. And since it takes so long, alot of things are going to change between when you start writing, and when you finish.

I think it would be great to have a book about torque, and I'd probably buy it, but I just dont think it will realistically work and be worth it for the author. There is only a very tiny audience, and they dont have that much money.

Sorry for bringing the harsh light of reality here. ;)

#12 So, after running through the valid comments and criticism...

I'm still very upbeat (despite the reality checks creeping in) about this project, and I _still_ want to give it a go.

The two type of comments that stick out are those that indicate the lack of qualified people around to write the book - after all nobody has written a game using the Torque engine (in its current form), and those comments that state, correctly, that you need to buy the TGE package for the book to make any kind of sense.

Furthermore, it has also been pointed out that a) a book takes a while to write, which could be spent writing a game, and b) the audience would be - initially - quite small.

Of course, I am primarily a game programming author, and unable to write a game by myself. I am becoming involved in an exciting project, though, so will hopefully garner some experience with the engine that I can write about.

If you're doing other things, like having a day job, a book takes around a year to complete. At least, mine do, and they generally run to 300-400 pages.

A 250-pager like I have in mind would probably take me three months to write, if I did only that. Of course, there is also a learning curve I have to follow too, but that shoiuldn't have much of an impact.

The market is probably too much of a niche for my current publisher, but I'll ask them. They may, however, insist that a copy of TGE (limited or not) be supplied with the book, with at least the functionality available to run all the examples provided in the book.

I suspect will go against the GG philosophy, but you never know. They will need to be asked, once I have everything worked out properly.

The avenue that I would be most interested in pursuing would be to begin by showing how to mod the RW demo, to show off the power of the engine (scripting/terrain etc.)

This would also give me an insight into the Torque engine without having to buy it. Also, I could probably put the RW demo on the CD, but I'll need to check with GG.

This mini-book, I would then try to publish through CRM, or failing that, as a self-published PDF.

Once that has been done, I'll see if it makes enough of a splash to warrant buying myself a copy of Torque, and writing a 'serious' book.

A final note - I could also, theoretically, publish the book/CD set through GG in the same way as a game. Think of it as an electronic book / CD with extended manual. What do we think of that?

(Of course, I'll need to buy a copy of Torque, unless our friends at GG feel like donating one ;) - us struggling authors, whine, whine, whine... grumble, grumble... )

Worth a shot.

Oh, and I'll be updating my .plan to reflect the first step - modding RW.

#13 Actually, I think writing such a book is a great idea!
Why not hook up with the guys already working on the documentation - will be like a book anyways, once it's finished... try to get a hold of Ron Yacketta who is leading the documentation project - I'm pretty sure he will have an open ear (or even two)...
And Guy, buying the engine won't ruin you, c'mon, it's a 100 bucks... that's a joke compared to the insights you get and the things you can do with it :)
I'd really like to hear Jeff's thoughts on this book thing... Jeff, you're out there? ;P

#14 Dave,

What I would aim for is to put the 'basics' stuff in a couple of 'bonus' chapters, stuck on the CD. Saves paper ;)

I'll check with the GG people. Maybe we can come to a compromise regarding licensing...

(Glad you liked Mathematical Techniques. My second Infinite Game Universe book is out now - Level Design, Terrain & Sound. Much fun!)

Stefan,

Thanks for the pointers, I'll try to hook up with those guys as soon as I can.

As for buying Torque - remember that game programming is not my _main_ area of work, writing is. I have to fund research materials out of the advances I get for writing books. No advance - no research materials. That is the guideline I have to stick to, otherwise I'd never have any money!

I agree that 100 bucks is nothing for what it can do, but since I would use it to write the book and probably nothing more...

Anyway, that's my whine over with. I'm sure it brught a tear to your eye.

I'll keep you all posted.

#15 Actually, the idea about getting GG to let you sell the book/CD combo is pretty cool. They could potentially sell ALOT more copies like that, which is good, because it is at the very least free advertising for them, and could even get alot more people here, and more money for GG.

#16 I think a couple chapters of "basic" stuff on the CD would be a great idea. It provides it for people that need/want it, but gets it out of the way and saves paper.

I don't really mean this part to seem negative, but I don't really think a book that only covered modding RW would make that big of a "splash." Probably not enough to warrant you writing a 'serious' book, like you said. This mini-book would probably be a great start to that 'serious' book, however. I would just be afraid that if counted on the mini-book doing well before commiting to the 'serious' book, that you may never get to what ultimately could be a really good book, if that makes any sense. I'd probably buy the mini-book, but most likely only because I was hoping for the 'serious' book to come out ;-)

One way in which you could make it more than a niche book would be to focus on the "Creating a game" part and have the highlight be "with the Torque engine." If it was a game creation book first, and torque book second I think the market would be bigger, atleast bigger than the GG community alone. This might not necessarily be exactly what *I* would want, but if it's the difference between having a book and not having a book I think its a compromise that wouldn't be too hard to make. And the folks working hard on the documention could probably do a good job of filling in the Torque-specific gaps that the book doesn't manage to cover in enough detail.

I know a couple years ago, if I saw a book that said something like "Travel in-depth through the many areas of the game creation process, while using the AAA engine technology behind games such as Tribes2" I'd probably have bought the book right away. :-)

I think if you made a book that taught Torque, you'd sell it to a lot of people in the GG community. If you made a book that taught creating games that just so happened to use Torque, you'd sell it those same people but also many people not-yet in the GG community. Plus I think a publisher would be much more likely to go for a project like that.

The main problem with this is, again, the Torque licensing agreement. I'm not sure which would be the best way to handle this, I guess you'd probably have to ask the folks at GG about it.

#17 Guy,

I sent email to your GG email account, but you must not check it much. Please get in touch with me at jefft@garagegames.com.

Jeff Tunnell GG

#18 I guess nothing has happened with this project?
I now wish I would have gone forward with it, myself. Ahh.. c'est la vie! :-)

-Eric

#19 Documentation work is coming along, so at least part of what would be in such a book is getting done. Hopefully there will be an announcement about docs in a few weeks (or sooner, who knows?)

But I agree wholeheartedly with the need for a book on Torque!

#20 Yeh too bad!