Business, Reality, Dreams and the Messiah!
by Stede Troisi · in General Discussion · 07/27/2002 (8:13 pm) · 144 replies
I have always had a desire to make a decent living from making games. Eventually I became a business programmer as the complexity and resources required to make a game became unrealistic.
At first I thought I would be a game programmer working for a great development company. Then I hear that most of these companies, capitalizing on the desires of young, talented programmers pay them $50,000 and make them work 22 out of 24 hours in a day while they make billions; also not for me.
Then I hear about GarageGames and their desire to become the new Messiah for game dreamers (the term I used for indie developers) in the 21st century.
Although you can learn a lot about development on this site the thing I have learned most (and value the most) is the business related issues.
One of my biggest observations is the fact that the Messiahs have/are now guarenteed to make millions! Think $100 * 10,000 subscribers to this site. Although there will be a few developed games most will fair or never get off the ground because of finance reasons.
I am amused to here Jeff Tunnel mention time and time again that financing is something YOU have to take care of but without you have Zero chance of success. I am also amused at the fear of many posts on this site of GG going out of business. I can't imagine how with so many game dreamers out there.
Do not get me wrong but I love the guys for opening this site. It has taught me a lot about the practical side of starting any business as I seek to go from an employee to an employer. I just wonder if anyone else realizes this?
Does anyone else know the chances of you becoming an sucessful indie developer is almost nill?
I would love to hear from all on all aspects of the BUSINESS side of things! Am I wrong?
Stede Troisi
At first I thought I would be a game programmer working for a great development company. Then I hear that most of these companies, capitalizing on the desires of young, talented programmers pay them $50,000 and make them work 22 out of 24 hours in a day while they make billions; also not for me.
Then I hear about GarageGames and their desire to become the new Messiah for game dreamers (the term I used for indie developers) in the 21st century.
Although you can learn a lot about development on this site the thing I have learned most (and value the most) is the business related issues.
One of my biggest observations is the fact that the Messiahs have/are now guarenteed to make millions! Think $100 * 10,000 subscribers to this site. Although there will be a few developed games most will fair or never get off the ground because of finance reasons.
I am amused to here Jeff Tunnel mention time and time again that financing is something YOU have to take care of but without you have Zero chance of success. I am also amused at the fear of many posts on this site of GG going out of business. I can't imagine how with so many game dreamers out there.
Do not get me wrong but I love the guys for opening this site. It has taught me a lot about the practical side of starting any business as I seek to go from an employee to an employer. I just wonder if anyone else realizes this?
Does anyone else know the chances of you becoming an sucessful indie developer is almost nill?
I would love to hear from all on all aspects of the BUSINESS side of things! Am I wrong?
Stede Troisi
About the author
#122
I have no idea what you're talking about here. The GG community is one of the best around. Of course you won't believe, listen to or understand that sentence, so this is just a waste of time.
Maybe when you mature some, and pull your head out of the sand you might realise that you've been acting like an idiot.
Of course, it's obvious that you won't listen to anything that is said no matter how true, accurate, relevant or insightful it might be to you or your topic. So there really is no point in anyone trying to talk to you.
Undoubtedly I'll just get flamed from you again; this time I'm probably an idiot or a retard. But remember, it's your blood pressure. This topic has done nothing but cheer me up and make me realise that I'm not so strange after all!!
07/29/2002 (1:02 pm)
Quote:from reading previous posts anyone who asks a critical question is going to get flamed!
I have no idea what you're talking about here. The GG community is one of the best around. Of course you won't believe, listen to or understand that sentence, so this is just a waste of time.
Maybe when you mature some, and pull your head out of the sand you might realise that you've been acting like an idiot.
Of course, it's obvious that you won't listen to anything that is said no matter how true, accurate, relevant or insightful it might be to you or your topic. So there really is no point in anyone trying to talk to you.
Undoubtedly I'll just get flamed from you again; this time I'm probably an idiot or a retard. But remember, it's your blood pressure. This topic has done nothing but cheer me up and make me realise that I'm not so strange after all!!
#123
I hope every intelligent guy in the GG community stops making any posts in this thread, please! please! let this thread die and forget about this guy which is only trying to make everyone angry.
Intelligent people shouldn't post any more, since if u are intelligent enough you realize this is like a child discussion.
Final words.
07/29/2002 (1:09 pm)
Sigh, this thread is stupid to be continued, just a stupid flame war, nice words Joe, and nice words Jeff too :)I hope every intelligent guy in the GG community stops making any posts in this thread, please! please! let this thread die and forget about this guy which is only trying to make everyone angry.
Intelligent people shouldn't post any more, since if u are intelligent enough you realize this is like a child discussion.
Final words.
#124
Jeff Tunnell GG
07/29/2002 (1:35 pm)
I deleted Stede's account. I have no problem with people questioning GG, but his methods went way beyond that.Jeff Tunnell GG
#126
As for Jeff, I am shocked and happy by your decision. By doing that it shows the kind of person you are and how scared you are.
Good luck fucking people over!
07/29/2002 (1:48 pm)
Xavier, you don't know what work is!As for Jeff, I am shocked and happy by your decision. By doing that it shows the kind of person you are and how scared you are.
Good luck fucking people over!
#128
07/29/2002 (1:56 pm)
Haha, you know thats exactly what he wanted. He came here to get kicked out by the community to use it as ammo for whatever strange crusade he's on. Oh well, good ridance.
#129
I was about to agree with you, but any sane sensible person who comes here to check out the validity of his statements will see straightaway that he's talking out of his backside.
Besides, like a friend said, anyone who agrees with Stede is probably not wanted here anyway.
07/29/2002 (1:58 pm)
Quote:Haha, you know thats exactly what he wanted. He came here to get kicked out by the community to use it as ammo for whatever strange crusade he's on. Oh well, good ridance.
I was about to agree with you, but any sane sensible person who comes here to check out the validity of his statements will see straightaway that he's talking out of his backside.
Besides, like a friend said, anyone who agrees with Stede is probably not wanted here anyway.
#130
07/29/2002 (1:59 pm)
You're probably right about that one Mike.
#131
07/29/2002 (3:03 pm)
Seeing as how he created the backup account yesterday, my guess is that is a safe bet.
#132
Anyone else think it's kinda lame that he comes back like a mad little puppy to throw out one last pot shot with the almighty "f" word!
Actually Troisi, you are a GOD. I'm simply amazed at your eloquence in discourse and completely unbiased attempt and logical communication.
My only comment about the topic is that nobody here thinks Jeff is a God. People pick an engine, commit to it's usage, and then (um drumroll please).... use it.
No suprise there. You don't like it...go back to Basic. I hear you can make AWESOME games with PHP and HTML.
Sorry to everyone on here other than Troisi. I couldn't resist. I'm hoping I can see that vein on his forehead pop!
Stalker...God...SS TROOPERS...LMAO.
But I'm just an idiot, I'm sure. A highly paid idiot that can afford to work on my game "dream" for free because I've made it in the software systems industry. But an idiot none the less. Right Stedster? heheh
Breath...1..2..3..4..5..6..7..8..9 there, that's better.
07/29/2002 (3:05 pm)
This thread has been a blast! I've just been lurking and enjoying watching Stede (whatever) hang himself. Anyone else think it's kinda lame that he comes back like a mad little puppy to throw out one last pot shot with the almighty "f" word!
Actually Troisi, you are a GOD. I'm simply amazed at your eloquence in discourse and completely unbiased attempt and logical communication.
My only comment about the topic is that nobody here thinks Jeff is a God. People pick an engine, commit to it's usage, and then (um drumroll please).... use it.
No suprise there. You don't like it...go back to Basic. I hear you can make AWESOME games with PHP and HTML.
Sorry to everyone on here other than Troisi. I couldn't resist. I'm hoping I can see that vein on his forehead pop!
Stalker...God...SS TROOPERS...LMAO.
But I'm just an idiot, I'm sure. A highly paid idiot that can afford to work on my game "dream" for free because I've made it in the software systems industry. But an idiot none the less. Right Stedster? heheh
Breath...1..2..3..4..5..6..7..8..9 there, that's better.
#133
only by changing his name from stede to steve you can see how serious the things he say are...
I mean, how do you know if his name is Steve or Stede? By doing a whois to his domain would be a good idea, but then he says that that's not true, and that we are idiots because someone 'whoised' his server and checked the source...
bah, it's good to see that he said he wont post anymore, bye ste'd'v'e, nice to meet you :)
07/29/2002 (4:37 pm)
duh! and the flame goes on... knock it offonly by changing his name from stede to steve you can see how serious the things he say are...
I mean, how do you know if his name is Steve or Stede? By doing a whois to his domain would be a good idea, but then he says that that's not true, and that we are idiots because someone 'whoised' his server and checked the source...
bah, it's good to see that he said he wont post anymore, bye ste'd'v'e, nice to meet you :)
#134
garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=forums&page=result.thread&qt=5206
He says alot of profits will go back into the engine--I think that's great. It'll stay current (if not cutting edge). I definately believe in the "if you build it they will come" idea. :-)
Again, good luck to GG.
07/29/2002 (7:21 pm)
I just happened along this thread from May. Jeff pretty well tells the GG position on $$$$. I found it interesting since it was said obviously before this thread.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=forums&page=result.thread&qt=5206
He says alot of profits will go back into the engine--I think that's great. It'll stay current (if not cutting edge). I definately believe in the "if you build it they will come" idea. :-)
Again, good luck to GG.
#135
Joe
07/29/2002 (7:45 pm)
Thanks for the Kind words on my post everyone. This has turned into a total mess. I will take the post and make a plan file out of it, and that should show up as a resource if someone were to do a search.Joe
#136
Hearing opinions like Joe's on the game industries busines side (read it here) are what I come here for. Posting your opinion can be very valuable even if five years from now you read your own post and think what you said was stupid (I've done this a number of times). Remember though that when you come here there are a lot of different cultures reading your posts so interpretations can be very distorted from what you intended. We shouldn't immediately assume that people are trying to flame or trash who we are or what we do. We are a community. We grow together and die together. If we want to thrive we will have to conduct ourselves in a manner that coheres to preservation.
I'm in part being a hypocryt just by writing this post. But give people the benefit of the doubt. Don't try to read into a post too much to get sarcasm and synacism. In some cases that may be the true. But if you approach posts with a helpful attitude and give advice the worst that could happen is that your advice is ignored and it's their loss not yours.
Alc
07/30/2002 (11:51 am)
I feel it's unfortunate that we lost one of our members the other day. I'm an idealistic person and feel that there is no reason why everyone can't somehow be, in the least, tolerated. However I do agree with Jeff's decision. The gentleman was harming the community. Not simply because of his comments but because other members were letting the comments effect their conduct in the community as well.Hearing opinions like Joe's on the game industries busines side (read it here) are what I come here for. Posting your opinion can be very valuable even if five years from now you read your own post and think what you said was stupid (I've done this a number of times). Remember though that when you come here there are a lot of different cultures reading your posts so interpretations can be very distorted from what you intended. We shouldn't immediately assume that people are trying to flame or trash who we are or what we do. We are a community. We grow together and die together. If we want to thrive we will have to conduct ourselves in a manner that coheres to preservation.
I'm in part being a hypocryt just by writing this post. But give people the benefit of the doubt. Don't try to read into a post too much to get sarcasm and synacism. In some cases that may be the true. But if you approach posts with a helpful attitude and give advice the worst that could happen is that your advice is ignored and it's their loss not yours.
Alc
#137
Independent Game Developers
The following gaming companies were founded with little or no financial aid, and remained independent developers through at least their initial projects.
Dynamix (Tribes, Tribes II)
Dynamix is defunct, and was purchased by Sierra after its first few published games.
Looking Glass Studios (Thief Series, System Shock, Ultima Underworld Series)
LGS is out of business, but remained 100% independent through its entire history of development.
Bungie Software (Halo, Marathon)
Bungie is still an independent developer working on Halo Online.
Square Software (Final Fantasy Series, Chrono Trigger, many others)
Despite popular belief, Square was an independent developer until it signed a publishing agreement with Eidos after Final Fantasy 7. They are probably the most successful game developer ever created.
Irrational Games (Freedom Force, System Shock 2)
Founded by memebers of Looking Glass Studios, the company was funded by LGS to develop System Shock 2. When LGS went out, they continued to thrive and released the smash hit RPG Freedom Force just this year to rave reviews.
Black Isle Studios (Icewind Dale Series, Planescape: Torment)
The most popular developer of RPGs in the world, Black Isle signed a publishing agreement with Interplay after they released Icewind Dale.
Core Design (Tomb Raider Series)
They signed a publishing agreement with Sony just after Tomb Raider I was released, but were completely independent during its development.
TopWare Interactive (Earth 2140, Earth 2150)
Earth 2150 was a silent hit in the strategy community and a sequel is currently in development. TopWare is still an independent developer.
Volition Inc. (Freespace, Freespace 2, Red Faction, Summoner Series)
Volition is still an independent developer and the creator of the epic space sims Freespace and Freespace 2, both of which are considered the best sims of all time.
Canopy Interactive
Founded by a member of GG. Need I say more? ;)
Valve Software (Half-Life Series)
Second only to Square in its popularity, Valve signed a publishing agreement with Sierra after HL's release (to the best of my knowledge).
Pirahna Bytes (Gothic, Gothic II)
PB was founded with literally no money and was just a group of guys who wanted to make a game. After a while, their project stopped being a hobby and became a full time unpaid job. The project was Gothic and was a hit RPG in Germany and the United States.
Independent Game Developers Founded via GG
21-6 Productions (Myrmidon)
Myrmidon uses TGE and will be released this Fall.
Independent game developers make the best games for one reason, the same reason the greatest countries are democracies: freedom, dedication and a passion for what they do. Make games.
07/30/2002 (12:27 pm)
As an afterthought, I've compiled this list of current gaming companies...Independent Game Developers
The following gaming companies were founded with little or no financial aid, and remained independent developers through at least their initial projects.
Dynamix (Tribes, Tribes II)
Dynamix is defunct, and was purchased by Sierra after its first few published games.
Looking Glass Studios (Thief Series, System Shock, Ultima Underworld Series)
LGS is out of business, but remained 100% independent through its entire history of development.
Bungie Software (Halo, Marathon)
Bungie is still an independent developer working on Halo Online.
Square Software (Final Fantasy Series, Chrono Trigger, many others)
Despite popular belief, Square was an independent developer until it signed a publishing agreement with Eidos after Final Fantasy 7. They are probably the most successful game developer ever created.
Irrational Games (Freedom Force, System Shock 2)
Founded by memebers of Looking Glass Studios, the company was funded by LGS to develop System Shock 2. When LGS went out, they continued to thrive and released the smash hit RPG Freedom Force just this year to rave reviews.
Black Isle Studios (Icewind Dale Series, Planescape: Torment)
The most popular developer of RPGs in the world, Black Isle signed a publishing agreement with Interplay after they released Icewind Dale.
Core Design (Tomb Raider Series)
They signed a publishing agreement with Sony just after Tomb Raider I was released, but were completely independent during its development.
TopWare Interactive (Earth 2140, Earth 2150)
Earth 2150 was a silent hit in the strategy community and a sequel is currently in development. TopWare is still an independent developer.
Volition Inc. (Freespace, Freespace 2, Red Faction, Summoner Series)
Volition is still an independent developer and the creator of the epic space sims Freespace and Freespace 2, both of which are considered the best sims of all time.
Canopy Interactive
Founded by a member of GG. Need I say more? ;)
Valve Software (Half-Life Series)
Second only to Square in its popularity, Valve signed a publishing agreement with Sierra after HL's release (to the best of my knowledge).
Pirahna Bytes (Gothic, Gothic II)
PB was founded with literally no money and was just a group of guys who wanted to make a game. After a while, their project stopped being a hobby and became a full time unpaid job. The project was Gothic and was a hit RPG in Germany and the United States.
Independent Game Developers Founded via GG
21-6 Productions (Myrmidon)
Myrmidon uses TGE and will be released this Fall.
Independent game developers make the best games for one reason, the same reason the greatest countries are democracies: freedom, dedication and a passion for what they do. Make games.
#138
Thanks.
07/30/2002 (1:51 pm)
@Steve - This is probably one of the most important posts of this entire fiasco. That's the kind of motivational list we all need to think back on every once in a while. Very motivational. Thanks.
#139
07/30/2002 (7:32 pm)
Thanks!
#140
**Edited for a minor spelling error
07/30/2002 (7:35 pm)
Steve that is a great list and I thank you for putting it together. One minor note about Bungie is that Bungie is no longer independant as I believe Microsft bought them out during the production of Halo for Xbox.**Edited for a minor spelling error
Associate Stefan Beffy Moises
You can say whatever you want about my threads, you just proved everything I was thinking about your character...
good luck in the gaming industry... buahahahahahaha! LOL!