Business, Reality, Dreams and the Messiah!
by Stede Troisi · in General Discussion · 07/27/2002 (8:13 pm) · 144 replies
I have always had a desire to make a decent living from making games. Eventually I became a business programmer as the complexity and resources required to make a game became unrealistic.
At first I thought I would be a game programmer working for a great development company. Then I hear that most of these companies, capitalizing on the desires of young, talented programmers pay them $50,000 and make them work 22 out of 24 hours in a day while they make billions; also not for me.
Then I hear about GarageGames and their desire to become the new Messiah for game dreamers (the term I used for indie developers) in the 21st century.
Although you can learn a lot about development on this site the thing I have learned most (and value the most) is the business related issues.
One of my biggest observations is the fact that the Messiahs have/are now guarenteed to make millions! Think $100 * 10,000 subscribers to this site. Although there will be a few developed games most will fair or never get off the ground because of finance reasons.
I am amused to here Jeff Tunnel mention time and time again that financing is something YOU have to take care of but without you have Zero chance of success. I am also amused at the fear of many posts on this site of GG going out of business. I can't imagine how with so many game dreamers out there.
Do not get me wrong but I love the guys for opening this site. It has taught me a lot about the practical side of starting any business as I seek to go from an employee to an employer. I just wonder if anyone else realizes this?
Does anyone else know the chances of you becoming an sucessful indie developer is almost nill?
I would love to hear from all on all aspects of the BUSINESS side of things! Am I wrong?
Stede Troisi
At first I thought I would be a game programmer working for a great development company. Then I hear that most of these companies, capitalizing on the desires of young, talented programmers pay them $50,000 and make them work 22 out of 24 hours in a day while they make billions; also not for me.
Then I hear about GarageGames and their desire to become the new Messiah for game dreamers (the term I used for indie developers) in the 21st century.
Although you can learn a lot about development on this site the thing I have learned most (and value the most) is the business related issues.
One of my biggest observations is the fact that the Messiahs have/are now guarenteed to make millions! Think $100 * 10,000 subscribers to this site. Although there will be a few developed games most will fair or never get off the ground because of finance reasons.
I am amused to here Jeff Tunnel mention time and time again that financing is something YOU have to take care of but without you have Zero chance of success. I am also amused at the fear of many posts on this site of GG going out of business. I can't imagine how with so many game dreamers out there.
Do not get me wrong but I love the guys for opening this site. It has taught me a lot about the practical side of starting any business as I seek to go from an employee to an employer. I just wonder if anyone else realizes this?
Does anyone else know the chances of you becoming an sucessful indie developer is almost nill?
I would love to hear from all on all aspects of the BUSINESS side of things! Am I wrong?
Stede Troisi
About the author
#62
Ed, I value your opinion and can't prove you wrong because:
1. I am only seeking answers.
2. You very well might be right.
My only response to your question is what happens if they go belly up?
Also, how long will it take for you to create a great game?
Stede
07/28/2002 (7:00 pm)
Mike Stoddart cracks on other peoples web sites but his site looks like a moron! He has a hotmail account and thinks he is cool.... ooooooh YOU ARE SUCH A PROFESSIONAL MIKE... hahaEd, I value your opinion and can't prove you wrong because:
1. I am only seeking answers.
2. You very well might be right.
My only response to your question is what happens if they go belly up?
Also, how long will it take for you to create a great game?
Stede
#63
07/28/2002 (7:00 pm)
Then I am only out 100 bucks. And some time.
#65
Anyway, Stede, In your original post you aren't that gently when talking about GG, you talk about GG like those guys who want to steal lots of money, etc, and that's not true, I doubt they are making much money yet, I'm not sure if they have selled 2,000 copies of the engine yet... and they have been online for more than an year, paying for web services, paying for art to be done, etc, they have paid for many things without getting a big contribution back. I think they do it because they have a vision of getting GG to be the home of some great teams, there of course is lot of people with visions only, but some people are very talented and with the time it'll show, and GG will start to publish little and great games that will let the developers to move on, to other engines and/or publishers. But if you are sitting in your home, without any contacts of people inside the industry it's one of the best places to start (if not the best). GG is a great place, you get a great community (with some un-fitted people which is impossible to ignore) but it's great overall, and 100$ for an engine, propaganda and a publishing deal isn't much money, do you think that if you make a game Activision will publish it and make you your propaganda without being in an important company? I doubt it. GG will make all what they can to get each of the titles published through them to be heard, why? Because they want to see progress, and of course, because as any other Company, they want to make money too, they don't do this cause they like us all, it's a job and a company to them, which also is something they always wanted to see done, from what i read on a Jeff T interview. They always wanted to see a system like this one, and they are trying to get it done, and making money from it would be the best thing!
So don't judge GG like the company pretending to be the Messiah, which really is stealing us... they are 4 great guys which are doing what they can to see their vision realized.
That's all I have to say, like it or not, it's not easy to get into the gaming industry, and GG is a great way of trying to get in.
Regards,
Xavier
07/28/2002 (7:07 pm)
mmm... I'll leave the personal discussion and insults out of this, though everyone of you has to reconsider how you are talking to each other.Anyway, Stede, In your original post you aren't that gently when talking about GG, you talk about GG like those guys who want to steal lots of money, etc, and that's not true, I doubt they are making much money yet, I'm not sure if they have selled 2,000 copies of the engine yet... and they have been online for more than an year, paying for web services, paying for art to be done, etc, they have paid for many things without getting a big contribution back. I think they do it because they have a vision of getting GG to be the home of some great teams, there of course is lot of people with visions only, but some people are very talented and with the time it'll show, and GG will start to publish little and great games that will let the developers to move on, to other engines and/or publishers. But if you are sitting in your home, without any contacts of people inside the industry it's one of the best places to start (if not the best). GG is a great place, you get a great community (with some un-fitted people which is impossible to ignore) but it's great overall, and 100$ for an engine, propaganda and a publishing deal isn't much money, do you think that if you make a game Activision will publish it and make you your propaganda without being in an important company? I doubt it. GG will make all what they can to get each of the titles published through them to be heard, why? Because they want to see progress, and of course, because as any other Company, they want to make money too, they don't do this cause they like us all, it's a job and a company to them, which also is something they always wanted to see done, from what i read on a Jeff T interview. They always wanted to see a system like this one, and they are trying to get it done, and making money from it would be the best thing!
So don't judge GG like the company pretending to be the Messiah, which really is stealing us... they are 4 great guys which are doing what they can to see their vision realized.
That's all I have to say, like it or not, it's not easy to get into the gaming industry, and GG is a great way of trying to get in.
Regards,
Xavier
#66
I like that post the most and you list very clearly the reasons FOR GarageGames. I would buy the product from your post alone.
As for being harsh on GG in my first post, I appologize. I didn't mean to come across too harse.
Thanks for the great reply.
Stede
07/28/2002 (7:15 pm)
Thanks Xavier "eXoDuS" Amado.I like that post the most and you list very clearly the reasons FOR GarageGames. I would buy the product from your post alone.
As for being harsh on GG in my first post, I appologize. I didn't mean to come across too harse.
Thanks for the great reply.
Stede
#67
So laugh yourself to sleep tonight my young friend, and enjoy the fact that you are just the most intelligent and wittiest person on this site, and we are just a bunch of lame idiots.
GG are doing me a favour by selling me the Torque engine for $100 because I'm buying something I could never create myself. Sure I could buy the Auran Jet engine, or use the Genesis3d engine, but the Torque engine is nearer to my specific requirements.
07/28/2002 (7:18 pm)
Well Stede, not to make you look like a raving lunatic, but I have a hotmail account because I recently relocated across the country, and it was the only valid email account that I could rely on still being active when I managed to get internet access.So laugh yourself to sleep tonight my young friend, and enjoy the fact that you are just the most intelligent and wittiest person on this site, and we are just a bunch of lame idiots.
GG are doing me a favour by selling me the Torque engine for $100 because I'm buying something I could never create myself. Sure I could buy the Auran Jet engine, or use the Genesis3d engine, but the Torque engine is nearer to my specific requirements.
#68
Stede
07/28/2002 (7:21 pm)
True Mike, you are an idiot. Read some posts like Xavier to understand how to talk like an intelligent person without having to resort to flaming and maybe you can contribute to this topic.Stede
#69
You're killing me, you really are. The last time I came across anyone as surreal as you, I was taking part in discussion with Derek Smart.
I'm glad that you know me well enough that you can call me an idiot! Thanks you really made a hilarious end to my weekend.
PS. I read Xavier's post, and he echoes some things that I said:
Just to save you from reading back through the posts:
07/28/2002 (7:24 pm)
You're kidding me right? Whenever I talk about something I try to show what I'm referring to and I try to maintain a dignified tone.You're killing me, you really are. The last time I came across anyone as surreal as you, I was taking part in discussion with Derek Smart.
I'm glad that you know me well enough that you can call me an idiot! Thanks you really made a hilarious end to my weekend.
PS. I read Xavier's post, and he echoes some things that I said:
Quote:Anyway, Stede, In your original post you aren't that gently when talking about GG, you talk about GG like those guys who want to steal lots of money, etc, and that's not true, I doubt they are making much money yet, I'm not sure if they have selled 2,000 copies of the engine yet...
Just to save you from reading back through the posts:
Quote:I seem to recall reading that there are less than 2000 paid members
Quote:Jeff Tunnell (Mr. GG himself) did say that they aren't making enough money to draw salaries, and I think he said that this has been the case for a couple of years now.
#70
"Really? You're kidding right? With your immature attitude and the total lack of quality and proof on your website, I don't believe a word of this statement. But then again, you did talk about the virtual world where I have to take you at face value. From taking you at face value I find you very immature."
You are sad boy and you should be ashamed of yourself. Go away and stop answering posts from a TROLL as you use the word so often!
Stede
07/28/2002 (7:28 pm)
Yes, an idiot! Why? For responses like this:"Really? You're kidding right? With your immature attitude and the total lack of quality and proof on your website, I don't believe a word of this statement. But then again, you did talk about the virtual world where I have to take you at face value. From taking you at face value I find you very immature."
You are sad boy and you should be ashamed of yourself. Go away and stop answering posts from a TROLL as you use the word so often!
Stede
#71
Among things that get conceded: creative control, acceptance criteria, QA costs, marketing, you name it. Depends on the publisher, and my only real experienceis in educational software.
And that's only if I can convince them to pay me to finish the game. If I already spent 300k on Quake3 (or however much it is) or however many 10's of thousdands on Lithtech, I am REALLY screwed till someone ponys up the cash to help me find the remainder of the project.
This GG gig is damn near risk free. GG makes 100 bucks per developer. I am only OUT 100 bucks per developer. GG says they get to publish the game ESD and boxed stuff is negotiable, cool, I donlt have to worry about who I have to please, and am working with a known quantity. First time developers make out. If the game makes money, great, everyone gets some cash, and now I can go to EA or Ubisoft with a success under my belt. And maybe i have alittle more cash this time, and maybe, I can negotiate with GG for a better license.
If they belly up, I bet I can come to some arrangement with them (unless they are killed in some sort of freak bus crash) to still get my game out there. But they have low overhead, they have other revenue streams, and they seem to havea GREAT deal of industry experience, so, if they go belly up, that probably means that I am MORE likely to fail.
-edit-
and if he's an idiot for resorting to name calling, you might, I say MIGHT want to reconsider calling people names. It makes you a hypocrite, amongst other things.
07/28/2002 (7:29 pm)
It's a business relationship, and a particularly one sided one for a new developer. You make alot of concessions to them unless you have clout (and a good contracts guy), and not many of us have clout.Among things that get conceded: creative control, acceptance criteria, QA costs, marketing, you name it. Depends on the publisher, and my only real experienceis in educational software.
And that's only if I can convince them to pay me to finish the game. If I already spent 300k on Quake3 (or however much it is) or however many 10's of thousdands on Lithtech, I am REALLY screwed till someone ponys up the cash to help me find the remainder of the project.
This GG gig is damn near risk free. GG makes 100 bucks per developer. I am only OUT 100 bucks per developer. GG says they get to publish the game ESD and boxed stuff is negotiable, cool, I donlt have to worry about who I have to please, and am working with a known quantity. First time developers make out. If the game makes money, great, everyone gets some cash, and now I can go to EA or Ubisoft with a success under my belt. And maybe i have alittle more cash this time, and maybe, I can negotiate with GG for a better license.
If they belly up, I bet I can come to some arrangement with them (unless they are killed in some sort of freak bus crash) to still get my game out there. But they have low overhead, they have other revenue streams, and they seem to havea GREAT deal of industry experience, so, if they go belly up, that probably means that I am MORE likely to fail.
-edit-
and if he's an idiot for resorting to name calling, you might, I say MIGHT want to reconsider calling people names. It makes you a hypocrite, amongst other things.
#73
Stede
07/28/2002 (7:31 pm)
True Ed. But couldn't a group of people make a game in there spare time and try to get it published when it is 2/3rd done? Didn't Croteam do this with Serious Sam?Stede
#74
Respectfully, you bring up some good points that I would be happy to discuss with you if it were not for the way you are treating others here.
I find your lack of respect for people to be a little disturbing and, in my opinion, unprofessional.
The topic of the thread has been a little derailed. If you could re-post the basic questions that you are interested in discussing I would be happy to engage in what hopefully can be a meaningful dialogue.
Joe
07/28/2002 (7:34 pm)
Stede,Respectfully, you bring up some good points that I would be happy to discuss with you if it were not for the way you are treating others here.
I find your lack of respect for people to be a little disturbing and, in my opinion, unprofessional.
The topic of the thread has been a little derailed. If you could re-post the basic questions that you are interested in discussing I would be happy to engage in what hopefully can be a meaningful dialogue.
Joe
#75
07/28/2002 (7:35 pm)
Do you mean a group of indie developers? I'm racking my brains trying to think of more examples, the obvious one being Carmack, Romero et al at iD.
#76
Stede
07/28/2002 (7:36 pm)
Joe, what do you mean repost? Start a new Topic? As for insults... I will not be talked to in a bad manner and just sit back. Reread the threads, they are right here and you will see I only respond to insults. I don't start them.Stede
#77
I had a playable, net enabled demo with custom models in an incredibly short period of time (now i could do it in a day). Of course my art sucked for the most part, but, I was zero to demoing and tweaking gameplay in a flash.
Buy versus build. Build takes longer.
07/28/2002 (7:37 pm)
Well, duh, of course they could, but then they'd have to write it all from scratch.I had a playable, net enabled demo with custom models in an incredibly short period of time (now i could do it in a day). Of course my art sucked for the most part, but, I was zero to demoing and tweaking gameplay in a flash.
Buy versus build. Build takes longer.
#78
Stede, I think its rather clear to everyone by now that you are just an ordinary, run of the mill troll. You've done quite a job here, thats for sure. I really don't understand what you hoped to accomplish with this. You honestly think that comming to a new (to you) community and basically calling them all sheep following a "messiah" is a good way to start things off? But then I guess you're the one with the greate business sense right?
You come here and check out the games that people are developing, only to critisize and call them rip offs. You claim that GG is ripping everyone off by not helping out with financing. You make it well known that you don't think its possible to do something like game development "FOR FUN" (as you so calmly put it) instead of doing it for "MONEY." You flat out lie about people sending you emails about being scared to post here. Your business sense is really a shining example for everyone to follow.
For someone with such business sense, I found if pretty intersting to check out your web site. You seem to love to flame stuff from people's profiles, so here you go. Troisi Consulting, I believe its called. Developers of Web and Wireless technology. You're even going to be offering online classes from real professionals. Perhaps, I'd trust this site if it had been around more than 2 months, since you registered it on June 18th of this year. How long did it take you put together that nice site? For a web developer such as yourself it shouldn't have been too hard. Especially since you just cut and paste scripts from www.dynamicdrive.com. I'm not here to judge tho, thats a good way to get something going. Its also nice to see you trying to foster a development community from your site with a Yahoo group. Maybe someday you'll even have more than one member, but don't be too worried about that yet; since you only created the group 4 days ago.
Anyway, I wish you luck in your new business, I only wish you'd feel the same for the people here. But since its clear that you only want to be a menace:
07/28/2002 (7:38 pm)
I can't believe this thread. I check the boards atleast once a day, so I see this thread with a ton of posts and I figured it was just a really old thread that someone ressurected for some reason. Guess I couldn't have been more wrong.Stede, I think its rather clear to everyone by now that you are just an ordinary, run of the mill troll. You've done quite a job here, thats for sure. I really don't understand what you hoped to accomplish with this. You honestly think that comming to a new (to you) community and basically calling them all sheep following a "messiah" is a good way to start things off? But then I guess you're the one with the greate business sense right?
You come here and check out the games that people are developing, only to critisize and call them rip offs. You claim that GG is ripping everyone off by not helping out with financing. You make it well known that you don't think its possible to do something like game development "FOR FUN" (as you so calmly put it) instead of doing it for "MONEY." You flat out lie about people sending you emails about being scared to post here. Your business sense is really a shining example for everyone to follow.
Quote:Business idiot. Maybe you need to spend more time on business and marketing. I did and believe me, it pays off more then you think.
For someone with such business sense, I found if pretty intersting to check out your web site. You seem to love to flame stuff from people's profiles, so here you go. Troisi Consulting, I believe its called. Developers of Web and Wireless technology. You're even going to be offering online classes from real professionals. Perhaps, I'd trust this site if it had been around more than 2 months, since you registered it on June 18th of this year. How long did it take you put together that nice site? For a web developer such as yourself it shouldn't have been too hard. Especially since you just cut and paste scripts from www.dynamicdrive.com. I'm not here to judge tho, thats a good way to get something going. Its also nice to see you trying to foster a development community from your site with a Yahoo group. Maybe someday you'll even have more than one member, but don't be too worried about that yet; since you only created the group 4 days ago.
Anyway, I wish you luck in your new business, I only wish you'd feel the same for the people here. But since its clear that you only want to be a menace:
Quote:I wish you would just grow up and go away.
#79
Either re-state the questions to get the thread back on track or start a new thread. I am re-reading the whole thread and the heart of what you are asking is getting muddled.
As for defending yourself, eh, you can do whatever you feel you must, but I find the way you are going about it to be unprofessional.
Joe
07/28/2002 (7:46 pm)
Stede,Either re-state the questions to get the thread back on track or start a new thread. I am re-reading the whole thread and the heart of what you are asking is getting muddled.
As for defending yourself, eh, you can do whatever you feel you must, but I find the way you are going about it to be unprofessional.
Joe
#80
AS FOR DAVE STROCK, YOU ARE SCARING ME BOY AND THIS IS GOING TOO FAR! I DON'T KNOW IF I SHOULD EVEN RESPOND TO YOUR POST. YOU SOUND LIKE A STALKER. oh well here goes...
I don't even know what www.dynamicdrive.com is. I did register the name a few months ago. I am still in a consulting job so I didn't have time to get my site up until a few weeks ago and yes, I do have a forum on Yahoo! I don't know what that has to do with anything.
I am a PHP and ASP.NET web developer with extensive experience with many corporations. If you need a dynamic web site for your games I will be willing to do yours for free! Just email me. No flames please.
As for DAVE, Wow, I hope a lot of you are not like that. GG members are starting to scare me!
Stede
07/28/2002 (7:53 pm)
Good point Joe. I think responding to people who insult me by insulting them back is Unprofessional and I will stop it NOW!AS FOR DAVE STROCK, YOU ARE SCARING ME BOY AND THIS IS GOING TOO FAR! I DON'T KNOW IF I SHOULD EVEN RESPOND TO YOUR POST. YOU SOUND LIKE A STALKER. oh well here goes...
I don't even know what www.dynamicdrive.com is. I did register the name a few months ago. I am still in a consulting job so I didn't have time to get my site up until a few weeks ago and yes, I do have a forum on Yahoo! I don't know what that has to do with anything.
I am a PHP and ASP.NET web developer with extensive experience with many corporations. If you need a dynamic web site for your games I will be willing to do yours for free! Just email me. No flames please.
As for DAVE, Wow, I hope a lot of you are not like that. GG members are starting to scare me!
Stede
Torque Owner Edward Gardner
2) yes, and you have as yet to demonstrate otherwise, see number 1.
3) yes, a few. Lithtech has some excellent documentation, and some pretty effects. It also costs. Alot.
So what you are really suggesting is that GG sell us Torque for 100 thousand dollars, and dump the publishing deal, making us not only spend the cash on that, but twist in the wind waiting for some publisher to grace us with their goodwill. That's alot of upfront risk for ME in terms of licensing technology. That's business 101. Minimize the risk, maximise the return.
You keep saying the same things over and over again. and you keep telling us we're all stupid.