A call for "Getting Started" Tutorial Content
by Mark Dynna · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 06/27/2007 (2:45 pm) · 11 replies
I am currently working on a project that will be a comprehensive "Getting Started" tutorial for users new to TGEA. I would like to hear from users new to TGEA on where they are "at" and would information they would like to see.
For instance, should I include an introduction to the Mission Editor or are most new TGEA users already familiar with it? I have seen from watching the forums here that Atlas terrains and the new Material system (especially transparency) are frequently questioned. Are there any other "key" areas that need more information/explanation?
Any and all feedback is welcomed.
For instance, should I include an introduction to the Mission Editor or are most new TGEA users already familiar with it? I have seen from watching the forums here that Atlas terrains and the new Material system (especially transparency) are frequently questioned. Are there any other "key" areas that need more information/explanation?
Any and all feedback is welcomed.
#2
I know this is perhaps abit further then "getting started", but you have to start somewhere and i chose character making :)
I know that how to make collision meshes is written in TDN, but unfortunately they dont go in to the "finer" points like, if you skin a collision mesh and it bends, its not convex anymore, does it still work?
Just my opinion... :)
06/27/2007 (4:47 pm)
Well, what i personally would like more info on is character setup, things like how people make their collision for animated characters. For instance can you actually skin a collision mesh or do they have to be "static" and linked to a bone?I know this is perhaps abit further then "getting started", but you have to start somewhere and i chose character making :)
I know that how to make collision meshes is written in TDN, but unfortunately they dont go in to the "finer" points like, if you skin a collision mesh and it bends, its not convex anymore, does it still work?
Just my opinion... :)
#3
This is different of course from other shapes classes, and is an optimization decision.
To answer your question however, you actually should never animate collision hulls at all, for performance reasons. Calculating your collision set is an expensive process, and animated collision meshes force this to happen every frame, wheras static collision meshes are calculated once and cached.
And no, if you did in fact animate a collision hull, and it became non-convex as a result (not sure how you would do that to be honest, since they are simple polygons, but...), it not only wouldn't work, but possibly/probably would cause an assert or crash.
06/27/2007 (5:30 pm)
@Niklas: little known fact, but Player class objects don't get any collision checks past bounding box. If your box collides, the character collides.This is different of course from other shapes classes, and is an optimization decision.
To answer your question however, you actually should never animate collision hulls at all, for performance reasons. Calculating your collision set is an expensive process, and animated collision meshes force this to happen every frame, wheras static collision meshes are calculated once and cached.
And no, if you did in fact animate a collision hull, and it became non-convex as a result (not sure how you would do that to be honest, since they are simple polygons, but...), it not only wouldn't work, but possibly/probably would cause an assert or crash.
#4
1- a writeup on how to link per-instance variables to the batched material system, assuming that's even *possible* at this point (turning on and off a glow, or scaling a damage overlay for a second texture pass are among the things that come to mind as fairly simplistic basics)
2- as well an explaination for just how youre supposed to get the material from a castray since it seems addmaterialmappings not even close to the right way to go about it, so that you can fully utilise the material system as a material one, as it was stated it was designed for, not as just a system to add shaders to textures...
(apologies if that comes off as a bit harsh, but those are the top 2 features I keep getting asked about at this point, at least, and I've seen nothing to link up that type of functionality but placeholder code like the breakable bool)
on a much more positive note, if you're looking to show the power of whats *clearly* implemented to date at least, theres always a step-by-step aplication of basic, and then custom materials on an entry-by-entry basis to show just how much flexibility there is in the purely visual, batched aspects, at least, such as texture overlaying so you don't need as many uvs, automatic alphachanel support for translucency, scrolling, waves, and custom materials, as well as pointing out that custom materials inherit all the functionality of the stock ones, so theres less migrane to deal with there...
06/27/2007 (6:06 pm)
Would verry much like to see1- a writeup on how to link per-instance variables to the batched material system, assuming that's even *possible* at this point (turning on and off a glow, or scaling a damage overlay for a second texture pass are among the things that come to mind as fairly simplistic basics)
2- as well an explaination for just how youre supposed to get the material from a castray since it seems addmaterialmappings not even close to the right way to go about it, so that you can fully utilise the material system as a material one, as it was stated it was designed for, not as just a system to add shaders to textures...
(apologies if that comes off as a bit harsh, but those are the top 2 features I keep getting asked about at this point, at least, and I've seen nothing to link up that type of functionality but placeholder code like the breakable bool)
on a much more positive note, if you're looking to show the power of whats *clearly* implemented to date at least, theres always a step-by-step aplication of basic, and then custom materials on an entry-by-entry basis to show just how much flexibility there is in the purely visual, batched aspects, at least, such as texture overlaying so you don't need as many uvs, automatic alphachanel support for translucency, scrolling, waves, and custom materials, as well as pointing out that custom materials inherit all the functionality of the stock ones, so theres less migrane to deal with there...
#5
Any other requests for a "beginner info" tutorial?
06/27/2007 (8:12 pm)
@Kirk: Ok that kind of information would belong in a "Materials in-depth" tutorial, since I have more often seen the question "why do I have an orange No Material texture" than "how do I get the Material from a castray".Any other requests for a "beginner info" tutorial?
#6
But i was actually referring to the los col thing, even though i called it collision mesh.
The loscol has to be linked to bones right? if you want to know if your charcter has been shot in the upper arm while he's reloading :)? or have i completely missunderstood how the exporter works?
Sorry mark for bugging in on your thread :)
06/28/2007 (3:06 am)
Thanks stephen for the explantation, that was also a thing i was wondering, if there was a drawback to making a too big bounds :)But i was actually referring to the los col thing, even though i called it collision mesh.
The loscol has to be linked to bones right? if you want to know if your charcter has been shot in the upper arm while he's reloading :)? or have i completely missunderstood how the exporter works?
Sorry mark for bugging in on your thread :)
#7
08/22/2007 (1:07 pm)
I would really like to see an easy to follow overview of program flow and structure for the source code. There's a lot out there on TorqueScript and the editing tools already, but if you want to learn how the engine code itself is put together and works, or for that matter edit the code to make and changes, you're pretty much on your own. 
#8
TGEA is a large, state driven monster ... there is no "easy to read up" way to get into it ... you will have to put in a few months at least I fear ...
08/23/2007 (1:01 am)
Most likely because that end is no trivial task.TGEA is a large, state driven monster ... there is no "easy to read up" way to get into it ... you will have to put in a few months at least I fear ...
#9
A beginner tutorial should do 2 things. Explain stuff that is there, what are these directories, where can you find stuff, what is needed and where are the examples (the creator folder in examples is actually not an example, even if it is in a folder called examples) etc. The second thing is it should help you to put your first test level (mission) together.
I needed to sift through to much documentation to find out that the mission editor is started by starting the game and pressing F11. And when I tried it in the example demo it didn't work, until I started the demo for the features from the in game menu. This is not intuitive, which means it needs documentation.
So this being Torque, what the beginner needs too is a nice starting point almost clean slate demo, with buttons for starting the editors. One that is not TGE revamped for TGEA, but one that works under TGEA with all the new stuff and none of the old.
There is a lot out there, but it is always just the easy three steps in and lots of stuff does not go to the end.
The beginning is easy the follow up is hard. The place, when it starts to be complicated. And this stuff is sorely missed.
Somebody please tell me, why the best tutorial is for the engine version 1.4 and why is the example mission they used there not included anymore ?
A big thank you for anybody who tries to get some sense of order into this documentation mess.
PS to Marc Schaerer : If I wanted to sift through engine code without any help, I could have used Nebula2 or any other giftware engine. I bought TGEA to have something that I can use fast, now. With editors that let me do my stuff with a minimum of fuss. And I actually hoped for usable documentation and some more or less tried out asset pipelines. Complicated is ok by me, usable only after a few months isn't.
10/29/2007 (4:08 am)
Please don't assume that a TGEA user knows how to use TGE. I have TGEA (no experience with TGE) and I read all the TGE stuff out of necessity, but to read stuff and then find out that it actually does not work like that is even more frustrating, than hunting down mini articles and being cut short by stubs (unfinished wiki articles). A beginner tutorial should do 2 things. Explain stuff that is there, what are these directories, where can you find stuff, what is needed and where are the examples (the creator folder in examples is actually not an example, even if it is in a folder called examples) etc. The second thing is it should help you to put your first test level (mission) together.
I needed to sift through to much documentation to find out that the mission editor is started by starting the game and pressing F11. And when I tried it in the example demo it didn't work, until I started the demo for the features from the in game menu. This is not intuitive, which means it needs documentation.
So this being Torque, what the beginner needs too is a nice starting point almost clean slate demo, with buttons for starting the editors. One that is not TGE revamped for TGEA, but one that works under TGEA with all the new stuff and none of the old.
There is a lot out there, but it is always just the easy three steps in and lots of stuff does not go to the end.
The beginning is easy the follow up is hard. The place, when it starts to be complicated. And this stuff is sorely missed.
Somebody please tell me, why the best tutorial is for the engine version 1.4 and why is the example mission they used there not included anymore ?
A big thank you for anybody who tries to get some sense of order into this documentation mess.
PS to Marc Schaerer : If I wanted to sift through engine code without any help, I could have used Nebula2 or any other giftware engine. I bought TGEA to have something that I can use fast, now. With editors that let me do my stuff with a minimum of fuss. And I actually hoped for usable documentation and some more or less tried out asset pipelines. Complicated is ok by me, usable only after a few months isn't.
#10
So something non revamped will not be seen most likely ...
Don't know if you are aware of that, but even most of TGE content is user done and as the users of TGEA get a little frustrated (TorqueX 3D is pushed faster, now there is even talk of Torque2 which is mean to replace all etc), the chances that users invest or more clearly waste time on doing documentation for something not actively enough supported (even thought it was mentioned to be GGs flagship product when EA costumers bought it) by its creators.
I'm right now as well reconsidering my TGEA ground up reworked editor, as it eats a lot of my potential time to work on code and I'm not sure if there will be a market for it at all (the current one is definitely to small and I do not really see it growing thanks to the active confusion and uncertainity created by GG with TX 3D and T2) and I am not going to spend hundreds of hours to have another thing for my bin ...
10/29/2007 (5:49 am)
There are no TGEA editors, there are only TGE editors pushed into TGEA.So something non revamped will not be seen most likely ...
Don't know if you are aware of that, but even most of TGE content is user done and as the users of TGEA get a little frustrated (TorqueX 3D is pushed faster, now there is even talk of Torque2 which is mean to replace all etc), the chances that users invest or more clearly waste time on doing documentation for something not actively enough supported (even thought it was mentioned to be GGs flagship product when EA costumers bought it) by its creators.
I'm right now as well reconsidering my TGEA ground up reworked editor, as it eats a lot of my potential time to work on code and I'm not sure if there will be a market for it at all (the current one is definitely to small and I do not really see it growing thanks to the active confusion and uncertainity created by GG with TX 3D and T2) and I am not going to spend hundreds of hours to have another thing for my bin ...
#11
On another note: people like Kirk Longendyke, Tom Spilman and Faust amongst other names do come here and they give better support than most clients ever dream of obtaining from GG.
Their posts are sometimes a bit complex with directional thought patterns so don't expect a full-out elaboration of events. However, if you trail along the threads, you will learn a bit more with every revolution.
"no pain, no gain", right ?
good luck ;)
10/29/2007 (8:48 am)
Quote:A big thank you for anybody who tries to get some sense of order into this documentation mess.Great docs for TGEA do not exist. The books they offer will not fully help you with TGEA either but if you need to learn about TG#+whatever development then I would suggest buying 1 or 2.
On another note: people like Kirk Longendyke, Tom Spilman and Faust amongst other names do come here and they give better support than most clients ever dream of obtaining from GG.
Their posts are sometimes a bit complex with directional thought patterns so don't expect a full-out elaboration of events. However, if you trail along the threads, you will learn a bit more with every revolution.
"no pain, no gain", right ?
good luck ;)
Torque Owner Andy S.
Default Studio Name
i think for new users it would be great to have a tutorial on how to set up a basic scene. Let's say a GUI where you start your game, then load a mission. Ideally one using atlas, another one using legacy terrain. THen especially the differences to TGE should be explained, like of course the material system. I think this is really missing.
Personally i am interested in how to set up legy terrain properly.